To be fair, I wouldn't have refused it either. Despite not being as brave as John Terry or as knowledgable on football as Tony Pulis.
At worst cae I would have had some hours of fun and a bit more money.
Why did Moyes get rid of our backroom team in favour of Evertons?
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To be fair, I wouldn't have refused it either. Despite not being as brave as John Terry or as knowledgable on football as Tony Pulis.
At worst cae I would have had some hours of fun and a bit more money.
I believe West Brom are insisting the new man does too, hence the delay. Not saying it doesn't happen, just that it's rare.
I think this should have been one of those rare occasions mate....
The United job after Fergie is the dictionary definition of a poisoned chalice. Mourinho talks a lot but I doubt he'd have taken it, too cowardly after being humiliated in Spain. He's at Chelsea with the intent of getting his mojo back.
No one expected United to win the league or even be thereabouts this year. Anyway, it's early days yet. We should reserve judgment on Moyes' performance until we're closer to the end of the season. We're a few points off of CL qualification, in the semi finals of the league cup and the knockout stages of the CL. Far away off "done well" eh?
Well as I said in my first post, apparently we asked Rene to stay on but he declined due to his role being watered down given the fact Moyes is on the training pitch himself much more than Fergie.
Not many would share your views on those two things, DrD:
1.
2.
But I agree that we should reserve 'Final' judgement of him doing a good job or not, until we're closer to season end.
Heh, I'm used to that 'topes not to worry.
that's why we are all here, DrD.What are we, 5 points off top 4? It's by no means a disaster, but it could get worse. There are no signs (IMO) that we've stopped the slide and our fortunes are changing. I reckon we'll do better but that's more wishful thinking and hope/expectancy based on what we did last year...
Moyes (and his staff), have been in top 4 fights before though so that's something...
Moyes (and his staff), have been in top 4 fights before though so that's something...
Ha ha, touche. (If that was intended in the tone I read it.)
After the Spurs game I was resigned to things getting a whole lot worse before they got better. But it wasnt until the Swansea game that my emotional response caught up with my intellectual one. i.e. I was quite detached following the Spurs game, but utterly dejected after the Swansea one, despite no real change in my perception of our chances this year.
Here we go again with the bullshit romanticism. It's become so cringe-worthy and looking at this season, probably detrimental. We've always had a British manager, so it has to be Moyes. We had Fergie for 25 years, any future manager must be here for at least a decade. Fergie wasn't sacked and was successful, that means we must give unlimited time to any future manager.
People throw around phrases like "United through and through", "knows our winning mentality" like they actually mean something. What the feck is United blood and how exactly is having a couple of coaches with this quality helping us win league and European titles? I'm willing to bet Phil Neville is not the best coach we could have at the club, despite the (largely irrelevant) fact he used to play for us. Everyone licking their lips at the prospect of Butt and Neville returning and yet slating Round and Lumsden is just mental.
The coaching the players are receiving evidently isn't up to standard, but they're a manifestation of the manager's philosophy, style and views on the game which aren't in line with what we should be aiming for. If Pep had taken over, he could have brought in and sacked whoever the feck he wanted for all I care, because there's at least a positive direction he'd have wanted to take us in.
Another ITK on the clubs training methods I see
Nah any manager would jump at the chance of getting paid shitloads and getting to manage the champions and hence challenging for all the major honors.
And he's done an abysmal job. Not sure how anyone can say he's done "well".
Or rather, someone who watches us pass the ball like a championship side week after week.
Nice rant Dominos. I agree with a lot of what you said, my own bugbear is people thinking Giggs can or should be our manager one day, or calling for Ole as our Moyes replacement. Totally bonkers. It has to be said though, it is interesting that you mention Pep in that very post, because his elevation at Barca was exactly the sort of romantic bullshit situation you (and I) have just slagged off. Pep "knew the Barcelona way", maybe that was merely coincidental but maybe that contributed to the speed of his success.
I'm sorry, I thought you wanted to keep Fergies staff
Oh I could have listed more examples, these included.
Fair point on pep. Although I don't think it's all romanticism, they employ managers externally more often than they do internally. He was highly rated from his work with the B team, whoever made the decision had a clear idea of his quality and made a good call, fair play. We as fans have no idea whether Giggs is even a competent coach, and yet we have many calling for him to manage us at some point purely because he "knows the club"...
Yes, an important distinction. Giggs does bring out the romantic nonsense in people. (Like his brother's bird, for example.)
Sure, plenty would take the payday and fame but how many of those would actually have the self belief that they could do a job? There's a reason why the manager was chosen and not picked from a group of applicants...and there's a good chance that it's because there wouldn't have been many qualified ones.
What boggles my mind is how many people seem to have an expectation of a smooth transition when losing a manager you've had for 27 years.
I'd have preferred it given how the season is going without them, may have made a difference, maybe it wouldn't. Don't think we could be much worse off.
I'm not fussed if a new manager wants his own staff. The problem is when the manager is wrong in terms of his ideas, methods, philosophy then we're not going to see him bring in coaches that take us in a direction we want to be heading.
Purely speculating, but it seems like such a massive step-up for someone like Jimmy Lumsden to become our first team coach.
Giggs. Scholes. Solskjaer. Van Der Sar. In the past few years Sir Alex has tried to convince all 4 to stay on as coaches. Sir Alex always wanted to keep our best and most determined players on as coaching staff. This thread is about keeping our previous coaching staff, but who was to lead them? And what was this bollocks about us not knowing if Solskjaer would be a good coach.
Basically, you wanted Mourinho right? And you didnt get him. And you think where right but didnt get your way. So your having a paddy? I'm being harsh here by I dont get the venom in your words at all.
He may be a very qualified, experienced coach, but my gripe is what is a man his age, with his track record and no previous of coaching top players going to add in terms of fresh ideas?
I'm purely speculating as well, but I'm guessing feck all. And I suspect the same is true of Moyes, we're looking devoid of ideas on the pitch at least.
I'm not saying we shouldn't have ex players as coaches. I responded to the notion we were all delighted that we'd opted to bring Neville and Giggs on board, but the rest of the (external) appointments were a disaster. It's about getting the best available, not those who happened to play for us. If they happen to be one of the same, fair enough. Fergie also thought Moyes was the best and most suitable candidate to take his job, for what it's worth..
I wouldn't obsess over one manager, no. I'd have taken Mourinho amongst others. I just wanted a top class proven manager - we didn't get one.
Massive gamble for them to be basically learning here, at the top of the game. On their own, in a vacuum...
The standard of football hasn't been the best for years now. I don't see how keeping Rene "Lion" Meulesteen and Plehan would improve our current situation.
Ah I see. It just confused me, because thats not what I said at all... I said:
I.e. Getting Giggs and Neville is a crowd pleaser. It is. Lots of people are happy that Giggs and Neville have become coaches. BUT aside from that its a crowd pleaser, it's a right royal feck up to let go of our entire coaching staff when they've brought us 7 years of near-unprecedented success. (Although the 90's were pretty consistent and good too)
Cowardice. It's that simple. He brought his yes-men from Everton because they are what he knows. He guts the entire set-up, from coaches to scouts. Despite the advice of Ferguson, he removes men like Meulensteen and Steele who have been important figures in our success and the development of young talent. He refuses to take serious interest in a top young player like Thiago Alcântara, despite years of comprehensive scouting of the player by Ferguson's scouts, preferring to go only with what he knows. Taking this fear of the unknown to a new extreme, he makes his only first team signing the Marouane Fellaini. Very depressing. Worse still is the apparent attempt to appease the fans by making Phil Neville and Ryan Giggs important coaches despite zero experience. This would not be such a problem if Moyes kept on experienced, quality members from Ferguson's regime, but he sacked virtually all of them. Now the players are training with coaches from a mid-table club and two with zero experience (one of whom is still their teammate, unheard of at this level).
If Everton's standard of football was a step up from ours I could see where you were going with that statement but... no, I just can't see where you're going with it.
In comparison to who anyway (please don't say Barca)? I actually haven't had a problem with our style of football until relatively recently. I love the way we can play at times, it's gotten safe, stale, slower, but it's not beyond us to play great football.
Come off of it. Seriously. It's cowardice to go AGAINST the advice given to him by his predecessor and employ HIS OWN coaching staff? It's cowardice to choose his own signings instead of going with what the old regime had in mind? And we're meant to take it as attempt to appease fans by signing Neville and Giggs?
Virtually every manager in the world gets to choose his own coaching staff. Sir Alex certainly effin did.
Out of all things that Moyes has been criticised for, this is one I don't agree with.
Firstly, it is very normal for a manager to bring in his own coaching staff.
Secondly, the changes made have not been that drastic. Rene was offered work but did not want to work with Moyes and he has brought in his own assistant and goal keeping coach and going by De Gea's form that has not made any difference. Phelan going was not that much of a big deal IMO.
The coaching staff for the academy and under 21 looks more or less the same.
I can't see anyone he has actually pushed other than the goal keeping coach and possibly Phelan as Rene did not want to work under Moyes.
Firstly, it is very normal for a manager to bring in his own coaching staff.
Secondly, the changes made have not been that drastic. Rene was offered work but did not want to work with Moyes and he has brought in his own assistant and goal keeping coach and going by De Gea's form that has not made any difference. Phelan going was not that much of a big deal IMO.
The coaching staff for the academy and under 21 looks more or less the same.
I can't see anyone he has actually pushed other than the goal keeping coach and possibly Phelan as Rene did not want to work under Moyes.
What
Yup, it's like people want us to play like Barca... I just want us to play like 06-09. Guess it depends on what you like...
They're doing their job. Round phil and moyes have been playing wing crosses and hoofball, they bring that here, they deliver as expected, what is there to comment?
Do u expect round, neville, and moyes suddenly becomes pep with tiki taka simply because they work for united now? They would have done it if they have the know how, sadly i think they're clueless at anything other than hoofball and cross it from wide.
Do u honestly think phil neville have the nous to come up with a plan to out manouver mourinho in a tight match? I dont
Do u expect round, neville, and moyes suddenly becomes pep with tiki taka simply because they work for united now? They would have done it if they have the know how, sadly i think they're clueless at anything other than hoofball and cross it from wide.
Do u honestly think phil neville have the nous to come up with a plan to out manouver mourinho in a tight match? I dont
If we are to have any legacy from the Fergie era, it's not playing stlye (we've had a few different versions of those), it's not always giving youth a chance otherwise (Pogba?), it's not signing only one type of player or playing a certain formation...
There is only one legacy, and thats that the Manager has complete and total control
There is only one legacy, and thats that the Manager has complete and total control
Didn't he try to keep Rene but Rene turned the position down?
Bizzare allegation, and frankly total rubbish in my opinion.
David Moyes had a lot of success at Everton and obviously worked well with certain indiviuals around him who he knows well and feels he can trust. Given that they played a large part in his success, and therefore in him ultimately getting the job in the first place, its not surprising that he decided to bring those people with him.
Fellaini was a player he knew at Everton - the other players the club targetted were not. The club let Moyes down in not getting the players he wanted - that it blatantly obvious. It was not his doing.
As regards the previous regime - the scounting network probably needed overhauling. If you look at the players brought in, the majority have done nothing. Hernandez has been an "under the radar" success. Jones and De Gea have big futures - but they were hardly a huge punt giving their pedigree and obvious talent. There have been loads of transfer busts going back years - more misses than hits.
Mulensteen may have moved on for a managers job - he is perhaps a loss. Phelan seemed to me to be the archtypical "yes man" and I cant see what he would bring to the party over and above what we have.
Fact is - things have to change. Moyes will want to put his stamp on the club and work in a system he is comfortable in - as every manager does. You dont see any top manager move clubs and not take his staff with him.
Fergie is gone - people need ot accept that. What helps nobody is Moyes coming in and trying to pick up where he left off because Fergie ran the club from top to bottom and had effectively built United from the ground up over the years, into what it is now. Moyes needs to work within that structure.
I don't mind him bringing in his own staff...Thats all well and good.
But putting Giggs and Neville as first team coaches was the stupidest thing he could have done.
They have no experience of coaching so I'm at a loss as to why they are learning here.
No disrespect but, if you are RVP, Rooney, Rio, Fletcher, Carrick, Nani, Evra, Vidic, are you really going to take notice of Phil Neville trying to coach you? Especially in his first year as a coach, when he keeps coming out saying to the papers that he's "learning on the job"....
It's insane! Take RVP for instance...He rates Rene as a great coach, to whom he credited a lot of his own success to last year. Now, not only is the best manager ever gone but, you are now being coached by Phil Neville?!?!...The interview he done before the season started with Geoff Shreeves made me cringe to the point where it was embarrassing..."Oh yes Geoff, dream come true" "Oh yes Geoff David brings a toughness to this job" "Oh yes Geoff I am learning right now and what better place to learn".....No Phil...There are better places to learn.
No problem with Moyes bringing his own staff in but he should have brought in better, more experienced coaches then these two.
Some of you might not agree and all well and good, thats fine. But it is the one thing that Moyes is completely guilty of IMO
Giggs seemingly has distanced himself from all of this rather interestingly
But putting Giggs and Neville as first team coaches was the stupidest thing he could have done.
They have no experience of coaching so I'm at a loss as to why they are learning here.
No disrespect but, if you are RVP, Rooney, Rio, Fletcher, Carrick, Nani, Evra, Vidic, are you really going to take notice of Phil Neville trying to coach you? Especially in his first year as a coach, when he keeps coming out saying to the papers that he's "learning on the job"....
It's insane! Take RVP for instance...He rates Rene as a great coach, to whom he credited a lot of his own success to last year. Now, not only is the best manager ever gone but, you are now being coached by Phil Neville?!?!...The interview he done before the season started with Geoff Shreeves made me cringe to the point where it was embarrassing..."Oh yes Geoff, dream come true" "Oh yes Geoff David brings a toughness to this job" "Oh yes Geoff I am learning right now and what better place to learn".....No Phil...There are better places to learn.
No problem with Moyes bringing his own staff in but he should have brought in better, more experienced coaches then these two.
Some of you might not agree and all well and good, thats fine. But it is the one thing that Moyes is completely guilty of IMO
Giggs seemingly has distanced himself from all of this rather interestingly
Its a bit like, when Walter White started working for Gus, he had to bring Jesse with him. They worked well together. Gale was the superior chemist...
Walter only wanted Jesse though because Jesse was going to press charges against Hank... so maybe Phil Neville knows something and Moyes had to keep him close for fear of being exposed?
Walter only wanted Jesse though because Jesse was going to press charges against Hank... so maybe Phil Neville knows something and Moyes had to keep him close for fear of being exposed?
Moyes is Heisinberg???
Phil looks a bit like Jesse alright....I can picture him lying on a couch in Carrington, eating cheesy puffs and masturbating and counting it as "work done"