Why did Moyes get rid of our backroom team in favour of Evertons?

Earthquake said:
Yeah, but again, still more than Cleverley would do. He'd watch him pass, slowly.

Tbh, I'd nearly put Buttner in at CM ahead of Cleverley now, least he'd run about a bit, put in a tackle, and take the odd risk.
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Also, it must be added that Roberto Martinez actually made Tom Cleverly play well...

Good Lord, I'd forgotten about that until right now.
 
FineYoungCasual said:
Moyes got rid of our successful backroom because to do so provided him with extra job security, there's no other logical reason.

And further still, it was the first sign of how cautious and self doubting Moyes is as a manager.

There's no way Moyes, coming from Everton, could've thought for one second that replacing the championship winning coaching team of Phelan and Rene with Steve Round and Phil Neville would improve Manchester United...no-one would entertain such a notion.

Rene and Phelan trained this squad, remember, and we know that SAF would delegate tactically massively to Rene. These were coaches that the players famously got on with and respected - look at RvP's quotes about Rene, and look at his quotes now...look at the squad spirit last season compared to this season for heaven's sake.

If Phelan and Rene had stayed in their previous roles it would've given Moyes the opportunity to learn, and it would've eased the transition.

I'll reiterate that Fergie didn't train these players, as it's a crucial point. It's quite possible that the departures of their every day trainers effected some of the players more than the departure of Fergie did.

So why not keep them? What possible benefit could come from replacing them with Round and Phil Neville? They weren't kept, in my opinion, because their presence - should Moyes fail to do his job properly - would almost certainly equal less time in the job for Moyes...

Since Moyes has failed to do his job properly we can quite easily answer the following hypothetical: if Rene and Phelan were here right now, and Moyes were struggling this badly, would it be more, or less likely that he'd be removed from his position and the pair of them would be given the wheel until the season's close? The answer is fairly obvious.

But without them, and indeed without any worthwhile number 2, what option do we have but to keep Moyes 'til at least the end of the season?

The irony, of course, is that if he'd kept them we wouldn't be in this mess. But as we've seen over years with Moyes - he is a guarded, cautious and most crucially to this point - unconfident manager. He doesn't have the ego or self-belief needed to see that keeping those two would actually help him, he would've viewed their presence as a threat and thus they had to go.
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Interesting, that would be very cynical...
 
I doubt having Phelan and Rene would have made his stint here a success but they could have possibly help make it better.

Hard to say for sure either way, though.
 
amolbhatia100 said:
I doubt having Phelan and Rene would have made his stint here a success but they could have possibly help make it better.

Hard to say for sure either way, though.
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I keep saying - Moyes is hands on with training, and even if he wasn't, it would still be his tactics our former coaches have to implement. I doubt it would matter much.
 
amolbhatia100 said:
I doubt having Phelan and Rene would have made his stint here a success but they could have possibly help make it better.

Hard to say for sure either way, though.
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I don't think it is that hard to say... experience is invaluable
 
Amir said:
I keep saying - Moyes is hands on with training, and even if he wasn't, it would still be his tactics our former coaches have to implement. I doubt it would matter much.
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I guess we're seeing the effects of his hands-on training. Maybe he should delegate... everything.
 
He was always entitled to bring in coaches he trusted. He was a stranger in a strange land and he was bound to want people there to confide in, lean on and trust. The down side of course is once it's done, there's no one else to blame.

I honestly believe that SAF and others thought that by choosing Moyes they would be able to preserve the "family" of the club. That maybe he'd want his own assistant manager and a player or two, but that most things would be left intact. The scouting staff had to go as well. He's actually travelling with a bigger entourage than people like Mourinho and Ancelotti. Now we're hearing half the squad needs to be replaced with his "own men" as SAF left behind such a lazy, good for nothing bunch.

Happy families indeed.
 
If he had Rene or Phelan you'd assume one of them would call Moyes a fecking idiot for dismantling that side that won to Palace and using Young and Valencia in a defensive 4-4-2 against Olympiacos of all teams. Round, Phil 'Bluetooth' Neville and that geriatric looking chap just seem to sit on their gormless looking arses all game looking about as useful as a chocolate teapot.
 
jojojo said:
He was always entitled to bring in coaches he trusted. He was a stranger in a strange land and he was bound to want people there to confide in, lean on and trust. The down side of course is once it's done, there's no one else to blame.

I honestly believe that SAF and others thought that by choosing Moyes they would be able to preserve the "family" of the club. That maybe he'd want his own assistant manager and a player or two, but that most things would be left intact. The scouting staff had to go as well. He's actually travelling with a bigger entourage than people like Mourinho and Ancelotti. Now we're hearing half the squad needs to be replaced with his "own men" as SAF left behind such a lazy, good for nothing bunch.

Happy families indeed.
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Yeah, it certainly wasn't unreasonable thing for him to do at the time.

But conversly, couldn't it also be seen as a massive sign of cowardice? Surrounding yourself with "yes men"?
 
All ifs and buts and hindsight is 20/20. It was probably a mistake, but everyone on here knows (and should understand) why he'd prefer to bring his own people with him. It might have been daft or the wrong choice, but it's an understandable one, nontheless.

Another point people are neglecting is Rene - look at all the shit his come out with to market himself since. Would someone with that big an ego have been willing to support Moyes or would he have felt as an "equal" etc? It seems the only thing that kept him in check was SAF's legend. I'm not entirely convinced he'd have had the same respect for Moyes. (rightly or wrongly so.).

Phelan seems much more sensible though. In the end I agree though, worst case, he should have kept a good few of them on. P Neville and Round just seem very much out of their depth and uninspiring, pretty much like Moyes atm.

Also, last year we strolled the league, but people must remember, we also dished up a lot of shit football and SAF's influence was instrumental in quite a few results. I'm not excusing Moyes because he's been uninspiring and dire, but it's not like the "coaching staff" of last season had us playing world beating stuff tbh.
 
Annihilate Now! said:
Yeah, it certainly wasn't unreasonable thing for him to do at the time.

But conversly, couldn't it also be seen as a massive sign of cowardice? Surrounding yourself with "yes men"?
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Safety first for David.

I think it was unreasonable given the context. Moyes' situation was one of needing to step up and also of being appointed for the sake of continuity. When the likes of Barca and bayern keep their backroom staff for the sake of continuity, even when a great manager like Guardiola, you should be taking a leaf from their book.

It may not be unreasonable in the sense of such a thing being accepted wisdom. But when you look at the factors in play and what the clubs to emulate are doing, it was obviously the wrong decision.
 
B20 said:
Safety first for David.

I think it was unreasonable given the context. Moyes' situation was one of needing to step up and also of being appointed for the sake of continuity. When the likes of Barca and bayern keep their backroom staff for the sake of continuity, even when a great manager like Guardiola, you should be taking a leaf from their book.

It may not be unreasonable in the sense of such a thing being accepted wisdom. But when you look at the factors in play and what the clubs to emulate are doing, it was obviously the wrong decision.
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Bayern and Barcelona appoint coaches not managers. They have a different way of working than others. It doesn't mean that everyone should emulate it just because they have been successful over the last few years. Teams have been successful before them and will be successful after them.
 
Shinjisan said:
Bayern and Barcelona appoint coaches not managers. They have a different way of working than others. It doesn't mean that everyone should emulate it just because they have been successful over the last few years. Teams have been successful before them and will be successful after them.
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By most accounts SAF is still the power behind the thrown, in his pseudo DOF role*.... maybe we already are (emulating)?

*I don't necessarily buy this but it's been said by many...
 
Ish84045 said:
Phelan seems much more sensible though. In the end I agree though, worst case, he should have kept a good few of them on. P Neville and Round just seem very much out of their depth and uninspiring, pretty much like Moyes atm.
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What is a "good few" though? When it comes to coaching, it's just three people. Rene, Phelan and Steele. One is goalkeeping coach and keeping him wouldn't have changed much. The other is the assistant and we can understand Moyes for wanting his own man. Doesn't leave much.
 
Ultimately its either arrogance or ignorance on the part of Moyes to rid a winning backroom staff.
 
sglowrider said:
Ultimately its either arrogance or ignorance on the part of Moyes to rid a winning backroom staff.
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I think it was neither. It was an attempt to assert control and it's back fired big time. Instead of stamping his authority on the club he has actually made himself look weaker by not fostering continuity in the back room staff. He has fostered continuity in the playing staff and I genuinely think ferguson appointed him for continuity. Bringing the Everton crew in was a massive mistake.
 
I remember in Gary Neville's autobiography he stated how much an influence CQ had on our defensive shape and overall play in Europe and how meticulous he was with our preparation before big games, like the game against Barca. Fergie spoke about how he trusted his lieutenants like Rene and CQ to put their imprint on the side, and that he valued their contributions massively.

Could you imagine Steve Round or Phil Neville coming out and giving a tactical masterclass about how to nullify Barca or Bayern?
 
Nights said:
I remember in Gary Neville's autobiography he stated how much an influence CQ had on our defensive shape and overall play in Europe and how meticulous he was with our preparation before big games, like the game against Barca. Fergie spoke about how he trusted his lieutenants like Rene and CQ to put their imprint on the side, and that he valued their contributions massively.

Could you imagine Steve Round or Phil Neville coming out and giving a tactical masterclass about how to nullify Barca or Bayern?
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I can't imagine Round and Neville working out how to beat Bury let alone Barca.
 
Pretty sure it was confirmed that Rene turned down an offer to stay. Phelan, this is the same Phelan that for the past several years people on this forum were begging SAF to dump right?

Changing the keeper coach doesn't seem to have caused any issues, so no big deal.
 
Kaos said:
If he had Rene or Phelan you'd assume one of them would call Moyes a fecking idiot for dismantling that side that won to Palace and using Young and Valencia in a defensive 4-4-2 against Olympiacos of all teams. Round, Phil 'Bluetooth' Neville and that geriatric looking chap just seem to sit on their gormless looking arses all game looking about as useful as a chocolate teapot.
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Very similar to the complaints about Phelan over the last few years.
 
amolbhatia100 said:
I guess we're seeing the effects of his hands-on training. Maybe he should delegate... everything.
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If people have read Fergie's book, he himself went through a stage very earlier on about delegation and observation. And it worked:

He said that by regularly observing, he can spot changes in training patterns energy levels, work rates of players. He delegated training to his coaches and was there to observe and took charge.

Oh really miss Sir Alex!!
 
JustAFan said:
Pretty sure it was confirmed that Rene turned down an offer to stay. Phelan, this is the same Phelan that for the past several years people on this forum were begging SAF to dump right?

Changing the keeper coach doesn't seem to have caused any issues, so no big deal.
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afrocentricity said:
Apparently incorrect...
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In his book he said Moyes brought in three men which meant that Phelan, Rene and Steele lost their jobs.
 
jojojo said:
He was always entitled to bring in coaches he trusted. He was a stranger in a strange land and he was bound to want people there to confide in, lean on and trust. The down side of course is once it's done, there's no one else to blame.

I honestly believe that SAF and others thought that by choosing Moyes they would be able to preserve the "family" of the club. That maybe he'd want his own assistant manager and a player or two, but that most things would be left intact. The scouting staff had to go as well. He's actually travelling with a bigger entourage than people like Mourinho and Ancelotti. Now we're hearing half the squad needs to be replaced with his "own men" as SAF left behind such a lazy, good for nothing bunch.

Happy families indeed.
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Wouldn't all those things have been discussed prior to Moyes signing during the negotiations ? It would have been incredibly naive from SAF not to do so IMHO. I think the main talking points (who Moyes would have in his staff) were already sort of agreed when they met. One thing we can all agree though, however it was done, the transition has been terrible.
 
JustAFan said:
Pretty sure it was confirmed that Rene turned down an offer to stay.
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I thought the quotes were that Moyes offered Rene the position of head of the academy, which was the post he had held before Fergie promoted him to first team coach.

There's no way Moyes would have kept Rene on as first team coach as Moyes takes all of his own sessions, according to his players at Everton, which was the total opposite of Fergie who left the day to day coaching to Rene/CQ etc.

You wonder what Moyes is teaching them though...
 
I wonder if Moyes have the humbleness to admit he's out of his depth and ask Rene to formulate the tactics for him (Assuming Rene is here), and if he does, imagine he lost all the respect the players has on him
 
Being hand picked by SAF, he must have felt like 'The Chosen One' for real. No doubt he would have been riding high around that time, believing his own hype so to speak... might have made a few rash decisions he wouldn't normally have. Looking back on it I wonder how he feels about it now... I reckon he may regret it.

@the-poster-that-said-he-doubts-Moyes-has-any-second-thougts-on-it...
 
Sky1981 said:
I wonder if Moyes have the humbleness to admit he's out of his depth and ask Rene to formulate the tactics for him (Assuming Rene is here), and if he does, imagine he lost all the respect the players has on him
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If he needs someone to tell him how to play football, he really doesn't deserve respect from the players. Or the job.
 
Sky1981 said:
I wonder if Moyes have the humbleness to admit he's out of his depth and ask Rene to formulate the tactics for him (Assuming Rene is here), and if he does, imagine he lost all the respect the players has on him
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Rene, the same man who led Fulham's charge to the Championship?
 
That'sHernandez said:
Rene, the same man who led Fulham's charge to the Championship?
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Being a fantastic technical coach and being a manager are two totally different ball games.

I don't see anyone thinking any less of Quieroz for "failing" at Madrid.
 
I still think it's weird that the Cafe spent years bemoaning Phelan's position at the club and yet his departure is now a major reason for our collapse.
 
Can't say I partook in it but I always assumed the belittling of Phelan was in jest?
 
Rowem said:
I still think it's weird that the Cafe spent years bemoaning Phelan's position at the club and yet his departure is now a major reason for our collapse.
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I don't think anyone was serious about that were they?

I think people wanted Queiroz back and it's understandable because he overlooked our greatest period but anyone with any sense knew what he meant to the first team. I'd bet any money that a lot of them have already been texting him for advice.
 
Pexbo said:
I don't think anyone was serious about that were they?

I think people wanted Queiroz back and it's understandable because he overlooked our greatest period but anyone with any sense knew what he meant to the first team. I'd bet any money that a lot of them have already been texting him for advice.
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There was a widespread assumption that Phelan was a bit useless, and from a smaller percentage of people there was genuine contempt towards him. The blame for our "zombie football" was often laid on Phelan.
 
Pexbo said:
Being a fantastic technical coach and being a manager are two totally different ball games.

I don't see anyone thinking any less of Quieroz for "failing" at Madrid.
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So what does the manager do if not come up with the tactics? If we're criticising Moyes for his tactics and he's manager, should we not also criticise Muelensteen for his tactics as manager also?
 
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