same here, I thought that it was a piss take because of how he appeared
Why did Moyes get rid of our backroom team in favour of Evertons?
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same here, I thought that it was a piss take because of how he appeared
Depends what club you are talking about. Some "managers" are just head coaches who work with the players they are given, at United, they are in control of everything. They bring the whole show together and make the big decisions. Fergie used his assistants and coaches expertise to formulate the tactics. Moyes appears to be taking everything on himself.
I think at Fulham, Rene tried to do the same but never had enough control or faith to make a long term plan.
Personally I don't think Moyes is worth those luxuries.
So who chose the tactics at Fulham, Shahid Khan?
If someone is a good chef they don't lose that talent if they venture off and try to open their own restaurant that doesn't work out. Just because coaches don't succeed at management doesn't devalue their original worth as a coach.
Was the tactics the problem at Fulham? I'd say they were in a
shit position when he joined them and they wanted a manager to do short term miracles and he wasn't able to. They have a relegation standard squad.
Sort of like how the caf had been calling for the sacking of SAF and the selling of Giggs for several years? It was a running joke mate...
It became a parody in the end but a sizable number of people were not impressed by Phelan at all. I'd say the majority thought he was little more than a yes man. I can't remember ever reading anyone suggest that he might actually be a very good coach with a good understanding of tactics.
Well yes man, no man, good or excellent... He's got bags more relevant experience than the fella that replaced him. I doubt anyone thinks it's a major cause for our current predicament either... wouldn't of helped though, and these little things add up. In the minds of today's professional player I doubt the pervading attitude was 'Meh, these things happen. I'm sure he knows what he's doing...'
Tbh, many of those calling for Fergie's exit weren't joking either......
Phelan was our assistant manager, and joking aside, there were many who wondered if he knew anything that SAF didn't. People thought that to keep things fresh, SAF might need the kind of assistant he'd hired in the past - someone who knew something different to him, maybe with experience of a different style of play or a different country. There was also a lot of talk about hiring an assistant manager who was a viable candidate for the manager's job.
Moyes brought with him assistants who only knew what Moyes knew. So someone like Phelan or Meulensteen who knew what SAF knew (including the players' personalities, their strengths and weaknesses) Vs someone who knew Moyes and Everton? Doesn't sound like much of a contest to me.
Moyes brought with him assistants who only knew what Moyes knew. So someone like Phelan or Meulensteen who knew what SAF knew (including the players' personalities, their strengths and weaknesses) Vs someone who knew Moyes and Everton? Doesn't sound like much of a contest to me.
Yes, damn all.
(as someone else here said) I think it was so he felt more safe in his job and didn't look at what they may offer.
At the end of the day if he took over with the existing staff and things were as bad as they are now I'm pretty sure he would think the existing staff would be kept, if only till the end of the season, and he would get the sack.
That or hes a pussy and wanted people to tell him how awesome his tactics are:
Moyes "i'm starting to think this 442, with young and valencia, isnt working"
Staff (who i dont even know the names of) "Na gaffer you're awesome and its working great"
Moyes "What would i ever do without you"
At the end of the day if he took over with the existing staff and things were as bad as they are now I'm pretty sure he would think the existing staff would be kept, if only till the end of the season, and he would get the sack.
That or hes a pussy and wanted people to tell him how awesome his tactics are:
Moyes "i'm starting to think this 442, with young and valencia, isnt working"
Staff (who i dont even know the names of) "Na gaffer you're awesome and its working great"
Moyes "What would i ever do without you"
Stands to reason he'd want to bring his own men. I don't see anything wrong with what he did.
I just find it weird that he seemed to think, and has convinced plenty of other people too, that the team that won 5 of last 7 league titles needs a huge makeover and needs to be rebuilt structurally and everything, and that he thought Everton had a better group of backroom staff then United. Just doesn't make sense.
The problem is that are they good enough. Nobody would have had a problem with a Mourinho/Pep/Klopp bringing his own men because those people are some of the best in world on their job. Moyes' men however, better to not even start talking about them.
An another problem, is that Moyes supposedly should have offer stability. By contrast, he sacked the coaches, and now apparently to his supporters here, the only way forward is to spend big in market like 200m (and ironically the only arguments in favour of Moyes was that he'll offer stability and will work under a rigid budget). Now, people actually want for Moyes to do a Mourinho (spend big) but with him the success is far from guaranteed.
There was no certainty Moyes could have worked with Rene M or Mike Phelan. He worked with this background team for years it's only natural you would want to take them with you. United haven't spent big for years in comparison to City Chelsea Barca Madrid PSG or Munich and its no surprise that these are the teams that are at the top table right now. The only surprise is how quickly we have dropped this season.
We have spend much more (in transfers and wages combined) than Liverpool, Arsenal, Spurs and Everton though. The surprise is being worse and lower in the table then them. No-one would have criticized Moyes for not winning the title and getting eleminated from the teams you mentioned in UCL. Seventh place and Olympiacos though, that is for another debate and there is no possible justification.
He has worked for them for quite a lot of time, but United is another business to Everton. The biggest question is are they good enough? The second question is, should have Moyes hire yes men who don't know things that he doesn't, or similar to SAF he should have chosen people who will compliment him (like SAF did with Queiroz and Maulensteen)? I think that everybody here knows the answers for those questions.
I'm not sure everyone here does know the answers to those questions Revan. Is Moyes background team yes men? Not according to what I have heard but like most I'm not happy with how things have went this season. But I will give him more benefit than most I guess. As more than one thing has counted for us being in this position. But my fear is like Spurs spend £100m plus and bring in 4-5 players and we might struggle to gel so we get another season of mediocrity.
I don't understand why anyone thinks it was a smart thing to do... I see the thought process in wanting to bring in known and trusted friends and colleagues, but it falls apart when you are advised to keep on some of the staff by the best manager in the game... and you go against that and sack them all off. Is this part of 'the cult of Moyes?', a handful of caftards have already come into this thread and said 'It's what managers tend to do...' never once taking into consideration that we are a unique case and what happens elsewhere has little to do with what we are doing.
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I've thought the same thing. I kind of can see why he wanted people he could trust and also had a relationahip with him. Football is an ego game, and perhaps Moyes felt that Phelan and Rene might sometimes undermine him with a 'we don't do that at united' etc. Also, because of their relationship with the players, perhaps Moyes thought that wasn't a good way forward for him as a manager in terms of gaining authority. Whatever, the problem in my mind is that his backroom staff have not been winners. They haven't coached a team to win anything have they? That must be a bit of a problem in the dressing room surely.
He can't control Phelan and Rene because he's not as smart as them, he can't counter their argument if not due to the fact that he outranked them
And that's what he perceived as threat, simply because he's not good enough
Mourinho don't have all this problems, because everywhere he goes, no bloody coach will questions his decisions at the end of the day
And that's what he perceived as threat, simply because he's not good enough
Mourinho don't have all this problems, because everywhere he goes, no bloody coach will questions his decisions at the end of the day
I don't think he's good enough for us at all, but how did you arrive at this conclusion exactly?
Neither of those two will ever be as good a manager as Moyes and we have idea how smart the three individuals are.
It's quite a unique situation in that title winning managers don't usually vacate their jobs so new managers rarely take over successful teams, but if you look at Bayern and Barcelona, like us title winning teams last season who also underwent managerial changes, they both kept key parts of their winning coaching staff, with the new manager coming in and bringing some of his own coaches but not making wholesale changes to the back room team. Why do you need to when it's not failing? How can the new manager guarantee that who he is replacing them with is better? It's unsurprising that the transitions at those two clubs is more seamless than at ours.
Those clubs have a different way of working. They are basically appointing coaches, not a manager like us. There the main responsibility of a new man coming in is to basically work with the first team with inputs to the various other departments. Where as we are expect a manager to be fully in charge of the things at the club. It makes the job that much more harder.
Maybe because he is basically working with the same people for years?
IIRC, he kept the assistant managers from the current club wherever he goes
And no, he doesn't bring along the whole load of coaches whenever he changes job
I don't think he's good enough for us at all, but how did you arrive at this conclusion exactly?
Neither of those two will ever be as good a manager as Moyes and we have idea how smart the three individuals are.
True, I agree
For all I know, I maybe smarter than Jose Mourinho, you may turn out to be more aspiring than SAF given time and chance, but off course, as it is, there's no way they'll listen to either of us, because we haven't achieve anything in our life to merit them listening to us.
The same with Moyes to an extent, he could have been a bloody genious after all, but we are living in a real world, and in the real world, you're nobody until you're somebody.
Donald trump and a beggar down the road can have the same theory about getting rich, but guess who will people listen more?
Professionalism is one thing, but they're all humans with human psychology
That is a shocking post
Would you respect him if you were Phelan/Rene/Queiroz
As much as you want to be professional to your boss, you can't help but scratching your head at his decisions
I've heard this too, but with all due respect what does that have to do with anything? Because he is taking on more responsibility he has to get rid of the staff that are already here? If that were the case then SAF wouldn't have advised him to keep them...
What I would do is irrelevant, you don't have a clue but make idiotic comments about someones intelligence based on nothing, for me that doesn't comment on his intelligence, more yours.
I'm not sure what you meant by your second point either.
We don't know how they would have been with him, because he didn't give them the chance...
So Moyes was told to retain "some" of the staff but sacked "all" of them, did he?
I was under the impression he let Meulensteen, Phelan and our GK coach (forget his name) move on.
The first two since shown themselves to have inflated opinion of themselves and could well have undermined a new manager. Not to mention that our tactics and style of play when they were both still with the club came under constant criticism. The GK coach has hardly been missed, either, as we've seen De Gea go from strength to strength.
Apart from these three men, who else has been sacked from the backroom staff at the club when Moyes joined? I mean, you don't think a club of this size and stature would have just three backroom staff working with the first team? (that's not even mentioning the staff working with our academy and reserves)
The thing is, if we were winning the league by a dozen points no one would be complaining about the staff. Despite the fact we'd all know just as much or as little as we do now. The only thing we know for sure is that managers like having people they know and trust around them.
and judging by latest team selections and tactics, he is in favour of driving out our most important and best players in favour of keeping the dross like Welbeck, Cleverly, young and valencia.
everybody thinks we will have a huge overhaul in the summer...we prob will, but we could end up with more poor players than we have now. Moyes is going to destroy this club, he prob has already done it.
everybody thinks we will have a huge overhaul in the summer...we prob will, but we could end up with more poor players than we have now. Moyes is going to destroy this club, he prob has already done it.
Yeah, that and the fact that caftards will have a moan about every-fecking-thing given half a chance.
This holds true when we're winning league titles so it's no great surprise that every single decision taken by Moyes since he started, bar none, will be perceived as the wrong one.
Name them.
Our best players such as Wayne Rooney? Who's just been made the highest paid player in England.
I'm not a massive fan of Moyes but I don't see how he's "driving out our most important players" so far none have left...
Pogue you're better than that, you just wrote 2 paragraphs about something I didn't say... I'll put it down to a case of 'late to the party' as I've made my stance clear numerous times already in this thread.
Vidic, Evra, Rio, RVP, Nani, Hernandez, Kagawa - all top class players who (apart from Rio) have plenty to offer this club in the next 18-24 months.
it the likes of the 4 players i mentioned above who should be going and not them. Zaha, Jones, Smalling are not exactly throwing out world class football for us either and there are no indications to show us they will become even close to that.
Moyes is replacing football with work ethic and attitude.