Why did Moyes get rid of our backroom team in favour of Evertons?

Also, on the subject, it really fecks me off how dismissive people are of Phil Neville. He was an incredibly loyal player for us for years and clearly loves the club, yet people take the piss out of him as a coach just because he wasn't the most technical player. Which, as we've seen, doesn't necessarily mean you can't coach people to do what you couldn't as a player. Or, more likely, that while he's young and learning his trade as a coach, in a few years he'll have trained on, just like players do, and become a very good coach in his own right. We always go on about how this club gives young people a chance, personally I think it's great that we've brought him back. Having people who know and love the club can only be a good thing.
 
afrocentricity said:
Pogue you're better than that, you just wrote 2 paragraphs about something I didn't say... I'll put it down to a case of 'late to the party' as I've made my stance clear numerous times already in this thread.
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His reply had everything to do with your post, you were pointing out that it was bad Moyes hadn't retained staff despite being advised to by a great manger in SAF, hence Pogue is analysing that and seeing if it is in fact bad, or good..
 
smallred said:
Vidic, Evra, Rio, RVP, Nani, Hernandez, Kagawa - all top class players who (apart from Rio) have plenty to offer this club in the next 18-24 months.
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SAF was the same with Nani as was Kagawa, nothing is factual with RVP, he does play him often and it's all conjecture, Vidic/Evra are of their own accord

So the only one is Hernandez, and there's nothing factual to suggest he doesn't prefer him, even pointing to his "lesser" appearances count to last season, Moyes declared his intention to play WR as a striker, meaning other strikers will get less starts... I wish people would stop presenting opinion as fact.
 
smallred said:
Vidic, Evra, Rio, RVP, Nani, Hernandez, Kagawa - all top class players who (apart from Rio) have plenty to offer this club in the next 18-24 months.

it the likes of the 4 players i mentioned above who should be going and not them. Zaha, Jones, Smalling are not exactly throwing out world class football for us either and there are no indications to show us they will become even close to that.

Moyes is replacing football with work ethic and attitude.
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Erm Vidic is the only 1 of them who has left to my knowledge? Evra can sign a new contract, it's up to him, Rio is past his best and there's no point letting them hang around on top wages.

The rest if depends what they want. The only 1 I think will definitely leave is Kagawa and he has divided opinion, it's not like he's brilliant every game he plays. He's awful in plenty of them and it's probably for the best for all parties if he moves on. Not getting into another Kagawa debate though as they're beyond tedious now

The rest seem to be players choice, I don't think Moyes ideally wants to lose people like Hernandez but it depends what the player wants, ifh e wants first team footballer I'd imagine he'd have to drop a level in terms of stature of club.
 
Brophs said:
Also, on the subject, it really fecks me off how dismissive people are of Phil Neville. He was an incredibly loyal player for us for years and clearly loves the club, yet people take the piss out of him as a coach just because he wasn't the most technical player. Which, as we've seen, doesn't necessarily mean you can't coach people to do what you couldn't as a player. Or, more likely, that while he's young and learning his trade as a coach, in a few years he'll have trained on, just like players do, and become a very good coach in his own right. We always go on about how this club gives young people a chance, personally I think it's great that we've brought him back. Having people who know and love the club can only be a good thing.
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Amen to that.

I sat beside some gimp at a rubgy match (yeah, sorry) a few weeks ago who was rambling on to his friend about how he'd heard that Phil Neville was setting up the cones at training in the wrong places because he didn't know how they were usually set up for United training sessions and didn't realise how technical Manchester United players were, as he only knew how to train players at an Everton level.

The same Phil Neville who spent 15 fecking years at the Manchester United football club, training week in, week out.
 
Jaybezia said:
His reply had everything to do with your post, you were pointing out that it was bad Moyes hadn't retained staff despite being advised to by a great manger in SAF, hence Pogue is analysing that and seeing if it is in fact bad, or good..
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Christ here we go. He wrote a paragraph about Moyes not sacking off ALL the staff when I thought it was clear I was talking about 3 people. If you had read the thread you would know that's what I was talking about. He then went on to try and justify it, using points that posters have already raised in this thread. I'm sorry if I don't want to go over old ground but cest la vie... read the thread.

I think it was a bad Idea, you and Pogue think it was a good idea, SAF thinks it was a bad idea... fact is. He didn't need to do it, if you put the pro's and con's of each scenario up I think you'll find it very hard to argue that it was the best thing to do and our current position and SAF's avice makes that even harder. I know Pogue and as we both have red tints we're normally on the same side of an argument, I guess his tints are a little redder than mine on this one.
 
afrocentricity said:
Pogue you're better than that, you just wrote 2 paragraphs about something I didn't say... I'll put it down to a case of 'late to the party' as I've made my stance clear numerous times already in this thread.
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This page was the only one in which I've read your posts on this issue, so apologies if you've been more nuanced earlier on. I got the impression you thought Moyes got rid of our entire backroom staff - despite SAF thinking he should retain some of them - and wanted to correct you on that.

I also think that the big changes he did make don't look any worse as decisions with hindsight, despite the terrible season we're having.
 
Am I the only one who thinks that Phil looks really worried everytime he's in the dugout? I reckon he's Moyes' punching bag... and Steve Round's... picking on poor Phil Neville they are.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
Amen to that.

I sat beside some gimp at a rubgy match (yeah, sorry) a few weeks ago who was rambling on to his friend about how he'd heard that Phil Neville was setting up the cones at training in the wrong places because he didn't know how they were usually set up for United training sessions and didn't realise how technical Manchester United players were, as he only knew how to train players at an Everton level.

The same Phil Neville who spent 15 fecking years at the Manchester United football club, training week in, week out.
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That must have made him pretty technical indeed.

I mean the first thing that comes in my mind when talking about Philip Neville is technique.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
Amen to that.

I sat beside some gimp at a rubgy match (yeah, sorry) a few weeks ago who was rambling on to his friend about how he'd heard that Phil Neville was setting up the cones at training in the wrong places because he didn't know how they were usually set up for United training sessions and didn't realise how technical Manchester United players were, as he only knew how to train players at an Everton level.

The same Phil Neville who spent 15 fecking years at the Manchester United football club, training week in, week out.
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That's one of the stupidest things I've ever heard.
 
Jaybezia said:
SAF was the same with Nani as was Kagawa, nothing is factual with RVP, he does play him often and it's all conjecture, Vidic/Evra are of their own accord

So the only one is Hernandez, and there's nothing factual to suggest he doesn't prefer him, even pointing to his "lesser" appearances count to last season, Moyes declared his intention to play WR as a striker, meaning other strikers will get less starts... I wish people would stop presenting opinion as fact.
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Anyone who would add Hernandez to a list of our "best and most important players" is probably not worth wasting key strokes on.
 
Anyhow, it's hardly as if Phil is head coach. with Moyes, Round and Lumsden, he's number four. There's just no problem there. He may be a very bright coach, what do we know?
 
@Brophs
@Pogue Mahone

SAF said letting Phil leave first time round was one of the hardest decisions he ever had to make.... [LINK]

Personally I loved this quote from SAF
"He was one of those players to whom you could say: 'Phil, I want you to run up that hill, then come back and cut down that tree.' And he would say: 'Right, boss, where's the chainsaw?'
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Quite a good guardian article/interview also here if anyone's interested ....[LINK]
 
Brophs said:
That's one of the stupidest things I've ever heard.
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Rugby, eh?

I was a bit drunk and his mate was nodding his head at this profound insight. Took all my willpower not to remind the pair of them what massive spacktards they were being.

Well, that and my cowardice, physical frailty and dislike of making a scene.
 
@Pogue @Brophs

My gripe with the Neville appointment is him being totally inexperienced for the position that he has given.

This is Nevilles first season as a coach and he finds himself number 3 in the pecking order at one of the worlds biggest clubs.

True club legends, of the quality and character, in Ole and Scholes had to earn their coaching stripes at in the youth and reserve ranks, as it should be.

Then you have a player who wasn't good enough for the club returning as coach where he will be telling world class players, some of which will hold the same coaching qualifications as him BTW, what to do. In a world of big egos, it just isn't a sensible move.

I have nothing against Phil Neville, just how he has jumped the queue and not because of merit.
 
Amir said:
Anyhow, it's hardly as if Phil is head coach. with Moyes, Round and Lumsden, he's number four. There's just no problem there. He may be a very bright coach, what do we know?
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I'm not even sure he's been taken on for his skills as a coach, so much as his presence in the dressing room.

Something else that pisses me off in this whole backroom re-shuffle is that you the same people complaining about a lack of continuity don't seem to have anything positive to say about the decision to make sure that both Neville and Giggs are heavily involved with the first team squad.
 
Jimy_Hills_Chin said:
@Pogue @Brophs

My gripe with the Neville appointment is him being totally inexperienced for the position that he has given.

This is Nevilles first season as a coach and he finds himself number 3 in the pecking order at one of the worlds biggest clubs.

True club legends, of the quality and character, in Ole and Scholes had to earn their coaching stripes at in the youth and reserve ranks, as it should be.

Then you have a player who wasn't good enough for the club returning as coach where he will be telling world class players, some of which will hold the same coaching qualifications as him BTW, what to do. In a world of big egos, it just isn't a sensible move.

I have nothing against Phil Neville, just how he has jumped the queue and not because of merit.
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Out of interest, how many "number 3"s have we had, over the years, who were better qualified than Pee Neville?

Genuine question. I don't know the answer.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
This page was the only one in which I've read your posts on this issue, so apologies if you've been more nuanced earlier on. I got the impression you thought Moyes got rid of our entire backroom staff - despite SAF thinking he should retain some of them - and wanted to correct you on that.

I also think that the big changes he did make don't look any worse as decisions with hindsight, despite the terrible season we're having.
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I didn't need hindsight to question that decision, it didn't make sense to me then and it doesn't now. Initially in this thread I asked why he couldn't have brought in his staff and kept our staff and incorporated them all somehow to make the transition easier...

A lot of posters like to fall back on what SAF said, when it suits them... he advised Moyes to keep them on, he didn't. Whether it turns out to be a bad idea or not, he went against SAF there.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
Rugby, eh?

I was a bit drunk and his mate was nodding his head at this profound insight. Took all my willpower not to remind the pair of them what massive spacktards they were being.

Well, that and my cowardice, physical frailty and dislike of making a scene.
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It sort of reminds me of that Monkey News where Karl is claiming that a monkey flew a spaceship and that it had a banana dispenser. And eventually he's talking about the monkey pressing the "left button" and the like. Bloody Neville's probably sitting around in his bermuda shorts, not even pressing the bloody training button every morning. Not to mention changing the cone settings from Everton to United. Idiot.
 
afrocentricity said:
I didn't need hindsight to question that decision, it didn't make sense to me then and it doesn't now. Initially in this thread I asked why he couldn't have brought in his staff and kept our staff and incorporated them all somehow to make the transition easier...

A lot of posters like to fall back on what SAF said, when it suits them... he advised Moyes to keep them on, he didn't. Whether it turns out to be a bad idea or not, he went against SAF there.
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I can't remember exactly what SAF said about the coaches (have you got a link?) but wouldn't expect any different from a former union man. Of course he would want everyone he worked with to hold onto their job after he left.

If anything, I think the decision to get his own men shows balls by Moyes. Which is something we haven't seen enough of, especially with the persistence in using team selection and tactics that Fergie used last season. I would like to see more gutsy decisions like this, rather than less.
 
Jimy_Hills_Chin said:
@Pogue @Brophs

My gripe with the Neville appointment is him being totally inexperienced for the position that he has given.

This is Nevilles first season as a coach and he finds himself number 3 in the pecking order at one of the worlds biggest clubs.

True club legends, of the quality and character, in Ole and Scholes had to earn their coaching stripes at in the youth and reserve ranks, as it should be.

Then you have a player who wasn't good enough for the club returning as coach where he will be telling world class players, some of which will hold the same coaching qualifications as him BTW, what to do. In a world of big egos, it just isn't a sensible move.

I have nothing against Phil Neville, just how he has jumped the queue and not because of merit.
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As Pogue mentioned, though, how do you quantify who is and isn't a good coach? Being 3rd in command - if indeed he is, in terms of his responsibilities on the training ground - isn't such a big thing when the manager takes all the sessions and you have a large number of coaches working with the first team at any given time. For reasons I'm not entirely clear on, I'm absolutely certain that Giggs will be a brilliant coach or manager. Obviously there's a learning curve but much of it is down to making a leap of faith.
 
Brophs said:
The thing is, if we were winning the league by a dozen points no one would be complaining about the staff. Despite the fact we'd all know just as much or as little as we do now. The only thing we know for sure is that managers like having people they know and trust around them.
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but we're not....

Also it's not uncommon for managers to keep one senior member of the pre-existing coaching staff to help ease the transition. Two quick examples I can think of is Pellegrini and Pep.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
Amen to that.

I sat beside some gimp at a rubgy match (yeah, sorry) a few weeks ago who was rambling on to his friend about how he'd heard that Phil Neville was setting up the cones at training in the wrong places because he didn't know how they were usually set up for United training sessions and didn't realise how technical Manchester United players were, as he only knew how to train players at an Everton level.

The same Phil Neville who spent 15 fecking years at the Manchester United football club, training week in, week out.
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Well considering P Nev left for Everton some years ago and then recently came back, this sort of scenario doesn't surprise me. Not because I don't rate P Nev but because things changed after he left United.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
I can't remember exactly what SAF said about the coaches (have you got a link?) but wouldn't expect any different from a former union man. Of course he would want everyone he worked with to hold onto their job after he left.

If anything, I think the decision to get his own men shows balls by Moyes. Which is something we haven't seen enough of, especially with the persistence in using team selection and tactics that Fergie used last season. I would like to see more gutsy decisions like this, rather than less.
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It can go either way really. For some people it's balls, others it's cowardice. Take your pick.
 
Gladiator said:
It can go either way really. For some people it's balls, others it's cowardice. Take your pick.
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True that. Calling it cowardice would be fecking stupid, mind you. It's blatantly clear that sticking with all of the people already in their post was the easy option. That shouldn't even be up for debate.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
Amen to that.

I sat beside some gimp at a rubgy match (yeah, sorry) a few weeks ago who was rambling on to his friend about how he'd heard that Phil Neville was setting up the cones at training in the wrong places because he didn't know how they were usually set up for United training sessions and didn't realise how technical Manchester United players were, as he only knew how to train players at an Everton level.

The same Phil Neville who spent 15 fecking years at the Manchester United football club, training week in, week out.
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While I realize that to be bullshit I wouldn't put it past Phil Neville to be the one lobbying for the likes of Cleverley and Young to be given more playing time because they are english.
 
Gladiator said:
Well considering P Nev left for Everton some years ago and then recently came back, this sort of scenario doesn't surprise me. Not because I don't rate P Nev but because things changed after he left United.
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You think the quality of player he trained with on a daily basis is far better after 2005 than it was before then? You're having a laugh, if so.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
True that. Calling it cowardice would be fecking stupid, mind you. It's blatantly clear that sticking with all of the people already in their post was the easy option. That shouldn't even be up for debate.
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The easy option? I've had posters telling me why it made sense to do what he did because he knows these people etc... saying it would lead to conflict etc to keep the old team (was it you yourself that mentioned egos?). It's all very contradicting... but it's neither here nor there... easy/hard? Do whats best for the club.

Someone mentioned earlier that SAF only advised to keep his staff on for their job security... really? I mean, really? I addressed this earlier but, could it not have been that he thought that was what was best for the club?

The different ways posters see aspects of this transition is interesting because it's like everybody shapes what they see/hear to fit an existing idea of what they perceive to be going on. No doubt I do it too... it's interesting.
 
afrocentricity said:
The easy option? I've had posters telling me why it made sense to do what he did because he knows these people etc... saying it would lead to conflict etc to keep the old team (was it you yourself that mentioned egos?). It's all very contradicting... but it's neither here nor there... easy/hard? Do whats best for the club.

Someone mentioned earlier that SAF only advised to keep his staff on for their job security... really? I mean, really? I addressed this earlier but, could it not have been that he thought that was what was best for the club?

The different ways posters see aspects of this transition is interesting because it's like everybody shapes what they see/hear to fit an existing idea of what they perceive to be going on. No doubt I do it too... it's interesting.
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By "easy" I mean that making a decision like that takes him out of the firing line. Not one person on here or in the media would criticise Moyes for not bringing in Steve Round et al, would they?
 
Didn't he want Rene to be in charge of the youth setup again? I think he should have kept Rene as first team coach. That was his first mistake and I remember saying as much in the summer. The transition would have been somewhat smoother had Rene stayed.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
By "easy" I mean that making a decision like that takes him out of the firing line. Not one person on here or in the media would criticise Moyes for not bringing in Steve Round et al, would they?
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I get ya...
 
Pogue Mahone said:
You think the quality of player he trained with on a daily basis is far better after 2005 than it was before then? You're having a laugh, if so.
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that's not what i was talking about. look at what i bolded.
Pogue Mahone said:
True that. Calling it cowardice would be fecking stupid, mind you. It's blatantly clear that sticking with all of the people already in their post was the easy option. That shouldn't even be up for debate.
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I can see why people called it cowardice though. Moyes went with people he trusted or as some put it "his yes men" over people who might have challenged the way he wanted to do things. Fergie was okay with his coaching staff disagreeing with his thoughts. In fact he encouraged it. But he also had the final say in these matters.

If the end goal was continuity then keeping everyone at their post was definitely the easy option. Seeing as this is a transition, I think the answer lies somewhere in the middle.
 
Jaybezia said:
What I would do is irrelevant, you don't have a clue but make idiotic comments about someones intelligence based on nothing, for me that doesn't comment on his intelligence, more yours.

I'm not sure what you meant by your second point either.
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So, human behavior study is idiotic, maybe u should try some advance university class before you label people idiotic
 
Gladiator said:
I can see why people called it cowardice though. Moyes went with people he trusted or as some put it "his yes men" over people who might have challenged the way he wanted to do things. Fergie was okay with his coaching staff disagreeing with his thoughts. In fact he encouraged it. But he also had the final say in these matters.

If the end goal was continuity then keeping everyone at their post was definitely the easy option. Seeing as this is a transition, I think the answer lies somewhere in the middle.
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Hang on, why would they be yes men? They've worked with him for years and, presumably, challenged him regularly in that time. Aren't the pre-existing staff less likely to want to rock the boat when the new man comes in?
 
I always believed that coaches should earn their spurs with smaller club first. Mind there are exceptionally cases like Guardiola. There again we're talking here about a football general who was already a sort of manager on the pitch. Phil never striked me as an intelligent player let alone a natural coach. What will he teach them exactly? Hacking players in front of the box?
'
 
Gladiator said:
I can see why people called it cowardice though. Moyes went with people he trusted or as some put it "his yes men" over people who might have challenged the way he wanted to do things. Fergie was okay with his coaching staff disagreeing with his thoughts. In fact he encouraged it. But he also had the final say in these matters.

If the end goal was continuity then keeping everyone at their post was definitely the easy option. Seeing as this is a transition, I think the answer lies somewhere in the middle.
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So Moyes surrounded himself with "yes men" at Everton, while Fergie's coaching staff at United regularly disagreed with him.

Any evidence to support this claim?
 
Brophs said:
Hang on, why would they be yes men? They've worked with him for years and, presumably, challenged him regularly in that time. Aren't the pre-existing staff less likely to want to rock the boat when the new man comes in?
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See what I mean Broths, you look at a situation and assume the old team are less likely to rock the boat... based on what? I don't know. Others look at it and claim that they have egos and would be difficult for Moyes to work with. Obviously the truth lies in the middle, but we still keep talking in absolutes...
 
Pogue Mahone said:
I can't remember exactly what SAF said about the coaches (have you got a link?) but wouldn't expect any different from a former union man. Of course he would want everyone he worked with to hold onto their job after he left.

If anything, I think the decision to get his own men shows balls by Moyes. Which is something we haven't seen enough of, especially with the persistence in using team selection and tactics that Fergie used last season. I would like to see more gutsy decisions like this, rather than less.
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Not really. It kind of shows reluctance in leaving his comfort zone. Its always nice to work around people you have been around you for years.

Sacking people just because they are not long term buddies doesn't really strike me as great management especially if the people in question has proven to be successful in the past.
 
afrocentricity said:
See what I mean Broths, you look at a situation and assume the old team are less likely to rock the boat... based on what? I don't know. Others look at it and claim that they have egos and would be difficult for Moyes to work with. Obviously the truth lies in the middle, but we still keep talking in absolutes...
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That's a good - and fair - point.

As always, in almost everything discussed on here, we're all speculating like crazy. And you're dead right that people will always choose to speculate on the scenario that suits their own agenda.

Actually, that's kind of a profound philosophical point when it comes to this place in general. It really is all a bit pointless, when you think about it.

Kind of reminds me why I took that sabbatical...
 
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