Calendar year? Or 2025/16 season?
Why dont we shoot from outside the box?
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik (@Rood) is joined by CEO Duncan Drasdo and Financial Director Andy Green from the Manchester United Supporters Trust for a special episode on all things behind the scenes at Old Trafford including a brief history of MUST and their aims today, views on INEOS and Sir Jim Ratcliffe so far, and the Old Trafford regeneration.
Calendar year? Or 2025/16 season?
I too had the thought like in OP that Schweinsteiger and few others have been told not to shoot from outside the box because not only in this game but previously also we have passed up shooting opportunities from outside the box. If LvG himself is questioning them, then I hope that changes going forward. Somebody like Schweini is more than capable to curl in corners and those can turn out to be crucial goals for us in the end.
Its good that Van Gaal said that at half time, but it doesnt mean he hasnt coached it out of the players. If for months he's encouraged players to pass instead of shooting and then suddenly at half time asks for them to do something else, its no surprise if it doesnt happen right away
Calendar year
Fecking hell.
It's a good point. Schweinsteiger had a great opportunity to crack one yesterday and attempted a through ball instead. So frustrating.
We should shoot more and I'm glad Van Gaal has recognised this.
We should shoot more and I'm glad Van Gaal has recognised this.
Shooting from outside the box is not the point here is shooting in general. There were times when players should have had a crack at goal instead of trying a smart little pass. A prime example being when Lingard slipped Rooney in and he pulled back to hit a shot but then just tried a cutback which got us nowhere.
The amount of deflected goals and rebound you get from just hitting it goalward means anything can happen.
The amount of deflected goals and rebound you get from just hitting it goalward means anything can happen.
In most matches we play I see plenty of balls being rolled across the edge of the penalty area, especially by BS, but you can then almost see the player coming on to the ball thinking 'I daren't mess this up' and then electing to try a short pass as a less conspicuous route to goal. A misplaced pass around the edge of the box will get a groan from the crowd, a mishit shot ending up in row Z will probably get the player substituted. There is no doubt that there is a fear of making a mistake to our play but this way has worked before with LVG so with the right personnel who's to say it cannot work again.
In the bigger games, perhaps people are naturally more cautious sometimes but a goal is a goal is a goal. It don't matter if it's a sweet strike or if it deflects off someones nut sack and goes in the opposite corner. It still counts. Look at that goal we let in against Moscow, the guy misses the penalty but is more alive then anyone to the rebound. Being unselfish maybe a sign of maturity but it's also a sign of passing the buck. People to need the right balance. There have been games where we've had all the ball but created nothing and we do have to correct that balance. We were unlucky against City but the players need to think more about the game. A goalkeeper might not expect it if all you do all game, is pass sideways.
Didnt hear that. Thats good that he said that cos I was annoyed Rooney had two good chances and Herrera too, couldnt understand why they werent shooting when in range and relatively open. His honesty does help give a true / fairer perception of the team which is good.
I'm sorry but I just can't see a defense for LVG here! We are the only team to have not scored a goal from outside of the area! And when you think about it now many shots have we had? Not many!
This was never an issue before. We've got the players who can hit it from distance so why aren't they? I can only attribute that to the manager and his passing philosophy. Defend him all you want but it wasn't an issue under previous managers.
This was never an issue before. We've got the players who can hit it from distance so why aren't they? I can only attribute that to the manager and his passing philosophy. Defend him all you want but it wasn't an issue under previous managers.
I was going to start this thread about a month ago.
I too thought lack of shots from out side of the box is instruction from LVG.
I'm glad he said that he was asking them why they don't shoot - so many have assumptions about what the manager coaches or discourages the players to do or not do.
This is true, Memphis does like a pop.
Shooting from outside wouldn't be an issue if we were scoring decent amount of goals. It's just a frustration to see the players so tame and docile. I'm sure, even inside the box, Utd must be one of the teams with the least amount of attempts.
Shooting from outside the box also requires the players in front of the 'shooter' to make runs to disperse the CBs. There is no point shooting from outside if the defenders are running towards you - that shot will likely get blocked. Martial moving to the wing is making us look impotent in attack again (as we were when we started the season without Martial). The BIG caveat there is that we have played higher quality opposition.
I guess the problem is slightly obvious. Attacking impetus in LVG's team comes from his front 3. With 2 of our 3 (Mata and Rooney) having bad games at the same time, we looked a little lost. If 1 of them had a good game against City, we could have won. With Mata, I can accept that its a drop in form/ one-off game because he has otherwise been great so far. With Rooney, the less the said the better.
I guess the problem is slightly obvious. Attacking impetus in LVG's team comes from his front 3. With 2 of our 3 (Mata and Rooney) having bad games at the same time, we looked a little lost. If 1 of them had a good game against City, we could have won. With Mata, I can accept that its a drop in form/ one-off game because he has otherwise been great so far. With Rooney, the less the said the better.
I think that the quote of shots from out of the box are pretty high in the League for United.
Whoscored says that from 105 shots 51 were from out of the box, 6 from inside the 6 yard box, 49 from inside the penalty are - thats 48.5 % of all your shots that are made from out of the box.
Just to compare that:
Arsenal Premier League 197 shots, 55 outside the box, 16 inside 6 yards, 126 penalty area = 28% from out of box
Bayern Munich Bundesliga 192/74/20/98 = 38,5 %
Manchester City Premier League 187/76/18/93 = 40.1 %
Goals:
Arsenal Premier League Total: 16 - 1 out of box, 5 six yards, 10 penalty area
Bayern Munich Bundesliga Total: 33 - 3 out of box, 9 six yards, 21 penalty area
Manchester City Premier League Total: 24 - 5 out of box, 7 six yards, 12 penalty area
And now the interesting part of it:
Manchester United Premier League Total: 14 - 0 out of box, 3 six yards, 11 penalty area...
Let's face it like this - your problem ain't really the shots from outside the box as you already have a high quote for that compared to your overall shots - but the result of it is zero...
Your problem seems more that you do not combine yourself into the penalty box. Because if you get in there your shots to goal ratio really is acceptable. Especially if you look to the numbers of Arsenal who need more than 12 shots for one goal in that area.
Whoscored says that from 105 shots 51 were from out of the box, 6 from inside the 6 yard box, 49 from inside the penalty are - thats 48.5 % of all your shots that are made from out of the box.
Just to compare that:
Arsenal Premier League 197 shots, 55 outside the box, 16 inside 6 yards, 126 penalty area = 28% from out of box
Bayern Munich Bundesliga 192/74/20/98 = 38,5 %
Manchester City Premier League 187/76/18/93 = 40.1 %
Goals:
Arsenal Premier League Total: 16 - 1 out of box, 5 six yards, 10 penalty area
Bayern Munich Bundesliga Total: 33 - 3 out of box, 9 six yards, 21 penalty area
Manchester City Premier League Total: 24 - 5 out of box, 7 six yards, 12 penalty area
And now the interesting part of it:
Manchester United Premier League Total: 14 - 0 out of box, 3 six yards, 11 penalty area...
Let's face it like this - your problem ain't really the shots from outside the box as you already have a high quote for that compared to your overall shots - but the result of it is zero...
Your problem seems more that you do not combine yourself into the penalty box. Because if you get in there your shots to goal ratio really is acceptable. Especially if you look to the numbers of Arsenal who need more than 12 shots for one goal in that area.
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Not everything needs to follow the script as is. If you are in a good position, you decide instinctively and shoot. Martial takes more risks instinctively. Its the problem with some of our other players who are too cautious. LVG might have asked them to not lose the ball but its obvious he wouldn't mind a player shooting from a good position, its madness to believe otherwise.
Maybe some shooting training may help. Have drills where they shoot from different angles of the final third. Then when it comes to a match they will have a sort of muscle memory and instinctively shoot.
Doesn't surprise me at all, always thought the over passing sideways and backwards was due more to the risk averseness of some of our players than the manager.
It does make you wonder what else the players are doing which has been incorrectly laid at LVG's door.
Our overall number of shots is pathetic, though. Half as many as Arsenal.
I think the drumming into the players by the manager of keeping the ball at all costs is behind this. It is now down to him to say yes it if fine to have a shot at goal from outside the box and you won't get dropped or a rollicking if you lose the ball because of it.
We try to pass the ball into the net.
Well, as quoted, he himself has questioned the players why they aren't.
Yep but you'll have a queue of folk stating that the buck stops with the manager and they're right to an extent. If the players are too risk adverse, and haven't been instructed to be by management, then he needs to work out why and unlock the straightjacket.
Somebody posted in it in this thread.
'We average 10.5 shots per game - in the five European leagues, that puts us at 80th place! Behind the likes of Villa, Levante and Sassuollo.'
Exactly. Having a moan to the press about it won't change anything. He's supposed to be meticulous in his instructions to players before each game. Maybe he needs to borrow Paul Ince's notebook?
I don't buy this "LVG drops players for losing the ball" argument. Players he dropped such as ADM, Memphis, or Mata before weren't just simply for losing possession. Their overall performances were poor, losing possession AND providing little to nothing else to the team. Sounds an agenda based argument to me. Blind is better than Jones or Rojo on the ball and is sitting out currently. Martial lost the ball often in his runs in the recent stretch of games he didn't score in, and even the Moscow game but is still in the team. There's clearly a lot more to a player's ability to keep the ball that dictates whether LVG plays them.
Unfortunately Pogue, I think you are just going to have to suffer this style of football for the rest of the season! I can't see LVG changing his style.
I fear you could be right. Although his comments about the players not being as attacking as he wants them to be (i.e. not shooting enough) are interesting. They could be spun as encouraging or concerning really. Maybe the conservative, risk-averse football isn't exactly his vision but, if so, why has he not yet got them playing the way he wants?
Personally I think it's because they are playing with fear. Fear of not doing what he wants and fear of messing up doing the things he wants. If he speaks to the players as he does to the press...then dear me there must be some confusion going on.
I feel as though the players think they are doing what he wants. @Balu and @Blackwidow have spoken about how, even at Bayern when Van Gaal's team was successful, the players had issues understanding what he wanted from them.
I am sure the players feel like thinking through their decisions, being careful with possession and letting the ball do all the work is an accurate characterisation of Van Gaal's ideas. They will have seen how he purred after the 45 pass goal at Southampton and probably think that is what he wants every week. They probably wouldn't be too far wrong on that either.
However, Van Gaal has this thing where he feels players should be able to react to changing circumstances e.g. do something different. Considering how rigid his tactics and preparation is this seems counter intuitive but, funnily enough, Van Gaal thinks players should occasionally do their own thing provided it doesn't ruin the team template.
I think it's obvious isn't it?
He wants the players to think about what they're doing, but be good enough to make those decisions quickly and move the ball quickly. So whilst they're encouraged to play the percentages (e.g. don't play a through ball with a 5% chance of success when a pass to keep possession with 100% of success is on) the ideal is to do it quickly, so those percentages are more likely to be in our favour through the opposition being out of position.
We're doing the thinking part, but its not second nature to these players yet (and perhaps, might never be) so they all slow it down too much whilst they think about what they're supposed to do, rather than play on instinct which someone like Ferguson would encourage.
Maybe because he still doesn't have all the "right" players who will execute his plan at 100% in the creative-attacking positions? A forward who is good in the box and offers good hold up play, a #10 who will operate as a second forward/second striker (Muller/Litmanen his best products) and wingers who are good at 1v1 and at creating chances for themselves are essential to LvG's tactics.
It's not some kind of conspiracy theory, the argument that it's the fear of the bad Dutch manager what's preventing the players from taking any risks on the pitch is a bit over the top. Martial is constantly trying to get past defenders, Memphis does it too. Mata has a free role to influence our attacking game anyway he wants. Who's holding them back?
LvG's plan is really simple. Stretch the defense, create spaces in between the opponent's lines and get your best players on the ball in those spaces. When that happens they are free, absolutely free, to shoot from distance, play a through ball/assist or try to beat a defender, to do whatever they want that will benefit the team.
Maybe that's the best this set of players can do with these tactics. If he's telling them to always play it safe, why hasn't Martial changed his style but still tries to get past players? Maybe because he's the only one who has a good chance of succeeding at it? And maybe Young was a regular starter last season because he tried to just same, although dribbling opponents isn't the strongest part of his game. And maybe our attacking players, who aren't good at beating their man and protecting possession when closed down, are afraid take risks because they believe they will lose the ball if they do so.
I'm getting heartily sick of an alleged lack quality of our squad being the reason for the undewhelming football we produce.
It's Van Gaal's squad. He's had enough time and more than enough money to create a squad capable of executing his vision on the pitch.
Maybe everything will click soon and if so, great. But the idea that we need to spend yet more money to have a functional team is depressing.
Isn't it true that we lack players who can beat their man? Isn't it true that we concede possession in the attacking half more than any other top side? Well, if you want to play possession football, these are prerequisites i'm afraid.
He's bought Martial and Memphis, both of them are very young and need a lot of work in order to become consistent in their performances. Other than that, who was available and we didn't get him?
Unfortunately, we will have to spend more money. Even if we win the treble, we'll have to do that. Simply because our competition, both domestic and continental, don't have any problem breaking the bank each and every summer to get better. I suspect Chelsea will break all kind of records in that area next summer and their squad has already won the PL.
It's fine, if you believe that we need a different approach and therefore a different manager but the fact that there are lots of players who have actually shown great improvement under LvG (Shaw the latest example) is an indication, to me at least, that our failings in the attacking half aren't solely the manager's fault.
I'm surprised it's even that much to be honest. Watching the games, you would think its much less.
Shaw, Smalling... Who else?
You could probably come up with a longer list of players who've disimproved under him. Starting with our club captain.
The team is too unselfish, LVGs coaching ideas are aimed at primadonas not team players who are happy to pass.
Have you really just played that card?
Also, who else has disimproved? If you're referring to the players he's sold, which players have proved his decision to sell them wrong?