Winger Discussion

We're having a debate about it because you seem to think you know more than LvG. He keeps playing Young and you keep arguing that he doesn't rate him. :)

We are debating because you keep ignoring LvG's comments on how he'd clearly like to upgrade him, and as far as knowing more than him, I don't bow at the feet of him or any other manager, most of them have made a long list of stupid feck ups, LvG among them and I am not gonna just agree with them. I think the fact Young was our so called best attacking player in our second shite season in a row filled with putrid football is evidence enough that if LvG thinks he's the answer he may need his pills again.
 
We are debating because you keep ignoring LvG's comments on how he'd clearly like to upgrade him, and as far as knowing more than him, I don't bow at the feet of him or any other manager, most of them have made a long list of stupid feck ups, LvG among them and I am not gonna just agree with them. I think the fact Young was our so called best attacking player in our second shite season in a row filled with putrid football is evidence enough that if LvG thinks he's the answer he may need his pills again.

I'm not ignoring that, but the fact that Ashley continues to play speaks volumes about how serious LvG's comments were. It stands to reason that if he truly wanted a replacement, he would've sold Young and bought a player like Reus. Memphis is apparntly not that player as evidenced by the fact that he has been played alongside Wayne, and since LvG has suggested the lineups he has been using will likely be used against Spurs, I think we can safely assume Young will be involved, which doesn't speak well for your hypothesis.
 
I'm not ignoring that, but the fact that Ashley continues to play speaks volumes about how serious LvG's comments were. It stands to reason that if he truly wanted a replacement, he would've sold Young and bought a player like Reus. Memphis is apparntly not that player as evidenced by the fact that he has been played alongside Wayne, and since LvG has suggested the lineups he has been using will likely be used against Spurs, I think we can safely assume Young will be involved, which doesn't speak well for your hypothesis.

He continues to play him because we haven't gotten a player in to replace him yet and are in the "process" of trying to get Pedro to do so, and he is playing Memphis centrally because Rooney is not good enough to play as a lone #9, I don't see what is so difficult about that when combined with the fact that he actually said bluntly that Young is no Neymar and listed the type of player we lack who all play where? In Young's position. So while he maybe doesn't agree with me that there are tonnes of upgrades, he clearly would love to upgrade him if he could which tells you he knows he's average, you don't upgrade your quality players, you buy cover. I tell you what though, I will bet you any tagline that if we start with Young regularly next season we wont win anything, ok?
 
He continues to play him because we haven't gotten a player in to replace him yet and are in the "process" of trying to get Pedro to do so, and he is playing Memphis centrally because Rooney is not good enough to play as a lone #9, I don't see what is so difficult about that when combined with the fact that he actually said bluntly that Young is no Neymar and listed the type of player we lack who all play where? In Young's position. So while he maybe doesn't agree with me that there are tonnes of upgrades, he clearly would love to upgrade him if he could which tells you he knows he's average, you don't upgrade your quality players, you buy cover. I tell you what though, I will bet you any tagline that if we start with Young regularly next season we wont win anything, ok?

What does any of this have to do with Young ? :confused: Its not rocket science really, LvG is clearly comfortable to proceed with the options he has, especially if he picks up Pedro as well. There's no Reus, Neymar, Hazard type available this year, so it will be Young and Memphis duking it out for time on the left.
 
He doesn't have anywhere near the offensive intelligence needed to be a wide forward. His movement in the final third is pretty poor and he isn't the greatest at creating space for his own shot, not that the shot is any good mind.

Wingers inhibit the teams ability to play through the middle without overcomiting men. It becomes an occupational hazard regardless of the football that a team is trying to play. Compare the set up between a our 99 team and our 08 team and you'll realise that both were great direct teams and teams through the middle. However the 08 team didn't need a midfielder(like how Scholes used to) to continuously make runs through the middle thus make our midfield defensively week.

From what ive noticed hes very good at beating the offside trap because the timing of his runs is excellent and his runs are quite intelligent as well. ive always wondered why he doesnt make those runs more often and i find the reason for this is because hes being played deep as a winger rather than a forward so he hardly gets the chance to run beyond.

i dont think theres any particular formation that causes overcomitting. its the style of football. barca have been known for over committing and then getting hit on the counter through the wings. they dont play with wingers. van gaaals bayern played with robben and ribery and often played through the middle due to the inverted nature of the wingers. that also allowed more space for lahm and badstuber to operate in. they didnt require schweini and van bommel to make runs through the middle. neither did martinez and schweini during heynckes's reign. bayern followed the philosophy quite effectively till guardiola showed up. the '08 team you are referring to was built around the talents of ronaldo. it was based on being defensively strong and not overcommitting and hitting teams on the counter. this was also the case in 09.

the 4-2-3-1 formation which became quite popular through the last few years also uses two wingers. my point is, theres no blanket statement you can make about wingers. it depends on the system and the philosophy of the manager and the personnel hes using. wingers will never go out of fashion. maybe its your definition of a winger that is the cause for this discussion. i dont think every winger has to be like antonio valencia.
 
Last edited:
From what ive noticed hes very good at beating the offside trap because the timing of his runs is excellent and his runs are quite intelligent as well. ive always wondered why he doesnt make those runs more often and i find the reason for this is because hes being played deep as a winger rather than a forward so he hardly gets the chance to run beyond.

i dont think theres any particular formation that causes overcomitting. its the style of football. barca have been known for over committing and then getting hit on the counter through the wings. they dont play with wingers. van gaaals bayern played with robben and ribery and often played through the middle due to the inverted nature of the wingers. that also allowed more space for lahm and badstuber to operate in. they didnt require schweini and van bommel to make runs through the middle. neither did martinez and schweini during heynckes's reign. bayern followed the philosophy quite effectively till guardiola showed up. the '08 team you are referring to was built around the talents of ronaldo. it was based on being defensively strong and not overcommitting and hitting teams on the counter. this was also the case in 09.

the 4-2-3-1 formation which became quite popular through the last few years also uses two wingers. my point is, theres no blanket statement you can make about wingers. it depends on the system and the philosophy of the manager and the personnel hes using. wingers will never go out of fashion. maybe its your definition of a winger that is the cause for this discussion. i dont think every winger has to be like antonio valencia.
He doesn't make those runs all that often cause he doesn't have an eye for them. Any player can make a great run here and then but its the ones that make then consistently that get lots of opportunities to score goals and rack up great numbers. Ashley Young is not that player.

Barca have stopped over commiting and this has paid dividents as they are defensively as solid as they've ever been. Certain players in the barca team rarely run into the box and in front of the ball. These are the players that enable them to defend well when the opposition team has the ball. Their 3 midfielders don't go rushing into the box to often unless the opposition has decided to all defend into the box. They used to have both fullbacks to far forward causing them all sorts of problems when defending counters, that stuff has come to an end.

Bayern were lucky they always had Ribery who'd be a dual purpose player, especially in the big games(hence bayern fans often refer to him as their primary playmaker in those days). He'd make it a midfield 3 In such games, and then provide a wide threat during the same match. Robben all the time was a wide forward, always cutting in and finishing moves, especially in transition. They played almost exclusively outside in, by that I mean they used to take the ball wide, then go inside as the true width(ability to go for crosses and such) would then be provided mostly by the fullbacks. That way of playing is distinctly different to our united way of play that we utilised in the 90's and early 00's. The same stuff we brought back with Valencia, and Young after losing Ronaldo.

Players like Young and Valencia who show no versatility in the game are a weakness to attacks unless they are played at fullback. City have the same issue with Navas as when he's on the field they don't have enough players to go through teams through the middle.

To clarify, by wingers I mean players who's main job is to run the line and get balls into the box.
 
What does any of this have to do with Young ? :confused: Its not rocket science really, LvG is clearly comfortable to proceed with the options he has, especially if he picks up Pedro as well. There's no Reus, Neymar, Hazard type available this year, so it will be Young and Memphis duking it out for time on the left.

I don't see what is confusing, he listed Young as a player that was not at the level he wanted and then listed a bunch of players of the ilk he feels we need in order to compete for the actual title, all of whom play in Young's position. Thus it is easy to garner that he plays Young simply because he has no other choice, like someone desperate to get laid will take the chick with the crooked teeth and halitosis at closing time because it's better than nothing.

You keep insisting he thinks Young is some type of quality player hence him being chosen, I am saying he doesn't think that he just simply can't get the quality he wants so he'll have to make do with average. Also I don't know why you keep suddenly listing Memphis as a LW competitor when everything we have seen and everything he and LvG have said on tour points to him playing as a #10 to offset the fact Rooney can't be relied on as the lone striker, another point I made as regards to why we can't play Memphis on the left. If we had a top striker Memphis would put Young on the bench quite easily and LvG would have his solution.
 
He doesn't make those runs all that often cause he doesn't have an eye for them. Any player can make a great run here and then but its the ones that make then consistently that get lots of opportunities to score goals and rack up great numbers. Ashley Young is not that player.

Barca have stopped over commiting and this has paid dividents as they are defensively as solid as they've ever been. Certain players in the barca team rarely run into the box and in front of the ball. These are the players that enable them to defend well when the opposition team has the ball. Their 3 midfielders don't go rushing into the box to often unless the opposition has decided to all defend into the box. They used to have both fullbacks to far forward causing them all sorts of problems when defending counters, that stuff has come to an end.

Bayern were lucky they always had Ribery who'd be a dual purpose player, especially in the big games(hence bayern fans often refer to him as their primary playmaker in those days). He'd make it a midfield 3 In such games, and then provide a wide threat during the same match. Robben all the time was a wide forward, always cutting in and finishing moves, especially in transition. They played almost exclusively outside in, by that I mean they used to take the ball wide, then go inside as the true width(ability to go for crosses and such) would then be provided mostly by the fullbacks. That way of playing is distinctly different to our united way of play that we utilised in the 90's and early 00's. The same stuff we brought back with Valencia, and Young after losing Ronaldo.

Players like Young and Valencia who show no versatility in the game are a weakness to attacks unless they are played at fullback. City have the same issue with Navas as when he's on the field they don't have enough players to go through teams through the middle.

To clarify, by wingers I mean players who's main job is to run the line and get balls into the box.

I think with Young we can agree to disagree since I think he doesn't play that LF position often enough for anyone to utilize his strengths while you feel he doesn't have those strengths at all.

Your definition of wingers is too rigid. A winger can also be a playmaker can also play as a forward and can also be utilized as a full back. I think your problem is with wingers who are not dynamic and are one trick ponies (?) Which obv I cannot disagree with. I believe young is dynamic and you don't. Nothing we can do about that.

As for barca. There was no need for that explanation I was referring to barca pre-lucho. But the fact remains that it was the coaches tactics that changed their vulnerability and their over committing nature not so much the personnel.
As for Bayern , you are right about Ribery operating more centrally in 2010 but this is where you become rigid about your definitions for a winger. in my opinion you are wrong about robben who played as a RM and not a RF for Bayern and even more so for heynckes in his 4-2-3-1. He was left out when he didn't perform the defensive duties of a RM adequetly. I could give numerous other examples of players who are wingers but I think that would be useless since your definition of a winger is a more traditional one while mine is different
 
I also quite like Mata on the right wing, more than a central #10 at least. The thing that I like most about him on the wing is his tendency to drift towards the middle even when without the ball which creates a dilemma for the opposing fullback and allows us to overload that part of the field in attack.
 
I must be one of the few people that really likes Mata on the right wing...
Well, yes. He can't do shit on the wing without the support of the RB and therefore often slows the game down. He was really slowing us down, stopping attacks and also losing the ball often against Barca, but that's overshadowed by the one good scene he had with Darmian and the pass to the left wing that followed.

DentalTalkativeIrrawaddydolphin.gif

I was actually surprised by that, because normally he would've turned back to the goal and passed it to a CB or a midfielder instead of just showing what he can do.

I really like him as a human-being and think he's a very skill-ful player, and on paper he'd be a good fit for Van Gaal's possession-based system, but he just hasn't shown it yet for me.
 
With Mata on that right wing, we can't play counter attacking or fast attacking football, he doesn't have the pace. Ultimately, he's the next big player we'll have to sacrifice if we decide to play a true 4-3-3 formation, as #10 should go to the more industrious and equally canny Herrera. I hope Memphis will be played on the left, my choice for that right side would be Griezmann, but Pedro would do, if we can't get Griezmann.
 
I don't see what is confusing, he listed Young as a player that was not at the level he wanted and then listed a bunch of players of the ilk he feels we need in order to compete for the actual title, all of whom play in Young's position. Thus it is easy to garner that he plays Young simply because he has no other choice, like someone desperate to get laid will take the chick with the crooked teeth and halitosis at closing time because it's better than nothing.

You keep insisting he thinks Young is some type of quality player hence him being chosen, I am saying he doesn't think that he just simply can't get the quality he wants so he'll have to make do with average. Also I don't know why you keep suddenly listing Memphis as a LW competitor when everything we have seen and everything he and LvG have said on tour points to him playing as a #10 to offset the fact Rooney can't be relied on as the lone striker, another point I made as regards to why we can't play Memphis on the left. If we had a top striker Memphis would put Young on the bench quite easily and LvG would have his solution.

Got to say that I think you totally misinterpreted LvG's comment. He was using Young as an example of our best players and then saying that there are players at another level above our best level - the level of Neymar, etc. - who it would be handy to have around. In no sense was the comment a put down of Young - in fact it was just the opposite, he was pretty much saying that Young is the best we have.
 
Meh, if we buy a winger, van Gaal will probably just try convert him to a center back anyway.
 
Young - nowhere near productive enough.
Mata - isn't a winger, doesn't have the pace to attack teams from wide positions on the counter, and suits playing through the middle much more.
di Maria - away to PSG it looks like.
Januzaj - looks like he'll be played through the middle this year, and was extremely disappointing last season after showing so much promise.
Memphis - a lot of promise, and whilst I think he'll do great, no guarantee of that.

We definately need a winger. If we don't we are leaving ourselves short.
 
I must be one of the few people that really likes Mata on the right wing...

Same. I always liked him there more than behind the striker. Altough, if we could have striker who is physical, quick, and has good link-up play(I know I am asking too much), I think he would be great behind him.