Wisconsin teens participate in Nazi salute

Brwned said:
We disagree on some of the specifics but big picture I totally agree. This is such a brutal perspective to take:



I would never give a Nazi salute but I did things as a teenager that leave a stain on my conscience. Thankfully the adults at the time had the compassion and sense to guide me in the right direction instead of burying me because of it.

If a snapshot of one of those moments was used as the only evidence to make that judgment on...I'd feel betrayed by society. I can't see how that's a good way to deal with these things.
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Have you read the other stuff posted about them? Racism and bullying are a regular occurrence in these places. These kids don’t care about the right direction, they enjoy this, and they deserve everything that’s coming to them. I have no time for racist bullies, they deserve to have their futures destroyed.
 
Cloud7 said:
Have you read the other stuff posted about them? Racism and bullying are a regular occurrence in these places. These kids don’t care about the right direction, they enjoy this, and they deserve everything that’s coming to them. I have no time for racist bullies, they deserve to have their futures destroyed.
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Well it seems like a systemic problem. Children and juveniles imitate what they see and although they must take responsibility for their actions and behaviour, having children being educated in these environments will inevitably lead to a continuation of that behaviour (and incidents like this). It’s easy to blame the individuals but they weren't born racist, they were taught it. Now some blame should be laid on them, but the focus should be on the school, the parents and society itself.
 
Tie them to a chair, find an extremely heavy history book about world war 2 and beat them to death with it.

Okay, death might be going too far, but their notion of too far is a bit off anyway.
 
Scott Walker declaring Paolo Di Canio day seemed to backfire spectacularly
 
KirkDuyt said:
Tie them to a chair, find an extremely heavy history book about world war 2 and beat them to death with it.

Okay, death might be going too far, but their notion of too far is a bit off anyway.
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I agree. From what I've read it's probably fair to assume that not all students in the picture are Nazis but they are blind followers who seem to have accepted racist behaviour in their school on a regular basis and think that doing a Nazi salute is a good laugh. This is terribly uneducated and I would prefer to use the heavy history book to trounce some awareness of what they are doing into their brains.

Mind you, I would find this less appalling if I didn't believe that this wasn't a result of blatant lack of general education throughout Western societies. It could happen everywhere because people have been dumbed down to an extent that makes it possible that they do stuff like Nazi salutes for fun.
 
If some of them are consistent racist shitbags like on those twitter posts on the first page then sure, I'm all for it. Ruin their futures at will.

Have some of you considered the possibility that there could be good young people on that photo who just got caught up making a bad decision in a moment they weren't thinking right though?

I mean, ruin all their lives just because of a mistake they committed when they were young and stupid? How many of us would deserve to have their lives ruined then? Isn't that a bit much?

The irony is that most of the people calling for everyone's head on that pic will also be the first ones to cry about not tarring everyone with the same brush.

Young kids sometimes make mistakes, people. No need to ruin their lives just for the sport.
 
Cloud7 said:
Have you read the other stuff posted about them? Racism and bullying are a regular occurrence in these places. These kids don’t care about the right direction, they enjoy this, and they deserve everything that’s coming to them. I have no time for racist bullies, they deserve to have their futures destroyed.
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That's a different point. Having skimmed over the context, I would agree that a heavy punishment is not something I'd lose any sleep over. What I disagree very strongly with is the idea that looking at the photo alone, taking no other issues into consideration, they should lose their future.

Cloud7 said:
I’m glad about them losing scholarships and colleges being alerted to this. If you’re this stupid you deserve to lose your future, and I say this with no remorse, that’s before you even take into consideration the other things posted in this thread about other acts of racism and bullying.
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Brwned said:
That's a different point. Having skimmed over the context, I would agree that a heavy punishment is not something I'd lose any sleep over. What I disagree very strongly with is the idea that looking at the photo alone, taking no other issues into consideration, they should lose their future.
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Meh, I have no time for people like this. I think that’s where we disagree. Nazi salutes aren’t funny, doing something like this isn’t funny. In a climate where the world seems like it’s going back in that direction, things like this need to be dealt with harshly. They deserve what’s coming to them.
 
Cloud7 said:
Meh, I have no time for people like this. I think that’s where we disagree. Nazi salutes aren’t funny, doing something like this isn’t funny. In a climate where the world seems like it’s going back in that direction, things like this need to be dealt with harshly. They deserve what’s coming to them.
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I think our perception of these people is quite similar, which makes the distance between our perceptions of appropriate punishment all the more worrying.

On that picture alone I can happily describe them as thoughtless wankers, with no empathy whatsoever for one of the greatest tragedies we'll ever know. I'd even suspect at least one of them is a neo nazi getting the thing started for dark reasons. The idea that this alone is enough to throw someone's life away is absolutely crazy.

That view is one of the biggest causes of the social divisions and revisions you're so concerned about. Your lack of empathy for them - these people in a photo you know nothing else about*, which at worst is a demonstration of a heinous view - is demonstrably part of social division.

*As per your initial hypothetical
 
Cloud7 said:
Meh, I have no time for people like this. I think that’s where we disagree. Nazi salutes aren’t funny, doing something like this isn’t funny. In a climate where the world seems like it’s going back in that direction, things like this need to be dealt with harshly. They deserve what’s coming to them.
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Wow, what bullshit
 
Brwned said:
I think our perception of these people is quite similar, which makes the distance between our perceptions of appropriate punishment all the more worrying.

On that picture alone I can happily describe them as thoughtless wankers, with no empathy whatsoever for one of the greatest tragedies we'll ever know. I'd even suspect at least one of them is a neo nazi getting the thing started for dark reasons. The idea that this alone is enough to throw someone's life away is absolutely crazy.

That view is one of the biggest causes of the social divisions and revisions you're so concerned about. Your lack of empathy for them - these people in a photo you know nothing else about*, which at worst is a demonstration of a heinous view - is demonstrably part of social division.

*As per your initial hypothetical
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I get your point, but this is my view on this. The same way I have no sympathy for racists who get caught on camera and lose their jobs, I have no sympathy for people doing and posting this kind of thing and thinking it’s funny. That’s all there is to it.
 
Cloud7 said:
I get your point, but this is my view on this. The same way I have no sympathy for racists who get caught on camera and lose their jobs, I have no sympathy for people doing and posting this kind of thing and thinking it’s funny. That’s all there is to it.
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Fair enough. Do you worry about the impact of taking such a hard line view? Not on these people you think are scum, almost subhuman, but on society as a whole?
 
Brwned said:
Fair enough. Do you worry about the impact of taking such a hard line view? Not on these people you think are scum, almost subhuman, but on society as a whole?
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I do think about it, but what’s the alternative. A slap on the wrist, and they go on with their lives thinking that doing stuff like this is okay? The people that grow up to be racists and other such folks don’t get that way overnight. It starts with things like this where they’re told “they’re just kids, they’ll learn better eventually”

Let’s say that these kids do have their futures ruined, do you think that anyone else will think that doing something like this is okay and do it in the future?
 
That mentality is part of the reason why we have packed prisons.

In a civilized society you should have a pathway towards unlearning problematic behavior.
 
The question needs to be asked why a large group of young people thought this would be funny? And comfortable enough for it to be photographed.
 
adexkola said:
That mentality is part of the reason why we have packed prisons.

In a civilized society you should have a pathway towards unlearning problematic behavior.
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The reason we have packed prisons is for years and years people have been locked up for things that are becoming legal now, like marijuana, not because some believe that people who post a picture of themselves doing Nazi salutes online should feel the consequences of their stupid, insensitive actions.
 
Sandikan said:
Maybe it should be.
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The Nazi salute is actually illegal in many countries, not Britain or the USA, however the history of the salute goes back to Roman times (or a very similar military salute)

I can understand why given how recent the memories are still that the salute might want to be banned, however a salute that has been around for '000s of years linked to roman soldiers which pledged trust, loyalty and friendship won't just go away. You could easily argue it shouldn't be banned if you base it on what the Roman's used it for and how they are revered today.
 
Cloud7 said:
The reason we have packed prisons is for years and years people have been locked up for things that are becoming legal now, like marijuana, not because some believe that people who post a picture of themselves doing Nazi salutes online should feel the consequences of their stupid, insensitive actions.
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So your alternative is to spoil lives for a bunch of teenage kids for doing something stupid? That's the way to go.

Nobody is saying here that there should be no consequence for their actions. Do you think Israel should shoot people who throw stones at them as well?
 
fishfingers15 said:
So your alternative is to spoil lives for a bunch of teenage kids for doing something stupid? That's the way to go.

Nobody is saying here that there should be no consequence for their actions. Do you think Israel should shoot people who throw stones at them as well?
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This might just be the worst comparison I’ve ever seen made. If this is where your line of thinking is with regard to what I’m saying then we have nothing to talk about. You have a good day Mr Fingers.
 
fishfingers15 said:
So your alternative is to spoil lives for a bunch of teenage kids for doing something stupid? That's the way to go.

Nobody is saying here that there should be no consequence for their actions. Do you think Israel should shoot people who throw stones at them as well?
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First none of these miniNazis is going to have their "lives spoiled" . Thats a massive over exaggeration.

Second, 18 year old have for decades lost college admissions because of stupid acts they committed before they enrolled. Its hardly something new. Its usually just minorities that get screwed over minor things like smoking a joint or stealing a traffic sign rathet than something actually troubling like think Nazi salutes are funny.
 
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oneniltothearsenal said:
First none of these miniNazis is going to have their "lives spoiled" . Thats a massivr over exaggeration.

Second, 18 year old have for decades lost college admissions because of stupid acts they committed before they enrolled. Its hardly something new. Its usually just minorities that get screwed over minor things like smokinhg a joint or stealing a trafgic sign rathet than something actually troubling like think Nazi salutes are funny.
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Just because it has happened doesn't justify it continuing further. It's like someone saying, "minority kids get disadvantaged early in life, so dem's the breaks". That's moronic.

Society benefits from education. I don't understand the rationale for cutting off idiotic kids from getting an education, in an environment where their ideas won't hold up under scrutiny.

For privileges like scholarships based on moral upstanding, fair enough.
 
oneniltothearsenal said:
First none of these miniNazis is going to have their "lives spoiled" . Thats a massivr over exaggeration.

Second, 18 year old have for decades lost college admissions because of stupid acts they committed before they enrolled. Its hardly something new. Its usually just minorities that get screwed over minor things like smokinhg a joint or stealing a trafgic sign rathet than something actually troubling like think Nazi salutes are funny.
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It's ok now because it's now white people getting screwed over? Are you not even bothered that out of the 50 odd people there maybe good kids who are not bullies who may get screwed over because one moment of madness? You think all of these are mini nazis for sure? So if all these were black kids you will be ok with them not getting punished? I have so many questions

Punish the bullies and the 'white power' shouting morons. Give these guys a stern talking to, a reasonable punishment for this.

edited the word in bold
 
Cloud7 said:
The reason we have packed prisons is for years and years people have been locked up for things that are becoming legal now, like marijuana, not because some believe that people who post a picture of themselves doing Nazi salutes online should feel the consequences of their stupid, insensitive actions.
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How about punitive laws entraping young black and Hispanic kids in a vicious cycle, condemning them to a 3rd class life, and pitting their offspring against the odds?

It's not just "marijuana".
 
fishfingers15 said:
It's ok now because it's now white people getting screwed over? Are you not even bothered that out of the 50 odd people there are good kids who are not bullies who may get screwed over because one moment of madness? You think all of these are mini nazis for sure? So if all these were black kids you will be ok with them not getting punished? I have so many questions

Punish the bullies and the 'white power' shouting morons. Give these guys a stern talking to, a reasonable punishment for this.
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I just don't get the hard-on from some for throwing out the baby with the bathwater. People actually think the issue is solved when you effectively ban kids from pursuing higher education.
 
Cloud7 said:
This might just be the worst comparison I’ve ever seen made. If this is where your line of thinking is with regard to what I’m saying then we have nothing to talk about. You have a good day Mr Fingers.
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Not long ago, you were like 'oooh, I have no sympathy, throw the books at them'. So don't have a good day Cloud and you stub your toe on a lego you monster.
 
adexkola said:
I just don't get the hard-on from some for throwing out the baby with the bathwater. People actually think the issue is solved when you effectively ban kids from pursuing higher education.
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Totally. I've been questioning my own sanity reading some of the responses in this thread Adex.
 
adexkola said:
Just because it has happened doesn't justify it continuing further. It's like someone saying, "minority kids get disadvantaged early in life, so dem's the breaks". That's moronic.

Society benefits from education. I don't understand the rationale for cutting off idiotic kids from getting an education, in an environment where their ideas won't hold up under scrutiny.

For privileges like scholarships based on moral upstanding, fair enough.
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None of these kids is "getting cut off from education" ffs. They might lose their first choice school and have to reapply at other schools possibly having to goto community college. Big fecking deal. Its not even remotely comparable to the millions of victims of the drug war to fill private prisons.
 
fishfingers15 said:
It's ok now because it's now white people getting screwed over? Are you not even bothered that out of the 50 odd people there maybe good kids who are not bullies who may get screwed over because one moment of madness? You think all of these are mini nazis for sure? So if all these were black kids you will be ok with them not getting punished? I have so many questions

Punish the bullies and the 'white power' shouting morons. Give these guys a stern talking to, a reasonable punishment for this.

edited the word in bold
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Nothing to with "white people" thats an ignorant strawman not worth replying to.

And good kids dont do Nazi salutes. I knew that a fecking 9 years old when a piece of shit teenage family friend tried to get little kids to do a seig heil.
 
adexkola said:
How about punitive laws entraping young black and Hispanic kids in a vicious cycle, condemning them to a 3rd class life, and pitting their offspring against the odds?

It's not just "marijuana".
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The system was and still is very much set up against non white people. I 100% agree with you on that.
 
oneniltothearsenal said:
None of these kids is "getting cut off from education" ffs. They might lose their first choice school and have to reapply at other schools possibly having to goto community college. Big fecking deal. Its not even remotely comparable to the millions of victims of the drug war to fill private prisons.
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How do you even know it's not a big deal for all of these students? Why should these students being punished has to do anything with victims of drug war and private prisons?

Solving the problem with black incarceration has nothing to do with these kids man, have some empathy for feck's sake. Just because they are white kids from wisconsin, should we be all like 'ok let's punish them, after all minorities are suffering'? When do you think these kids will realize the problem of minorities? Not when they are are living in bugaboo or sisterbay, it's when they come out to Chicago and other cities.
 
oneniltothearsenal said:
None of these kids is "getting cut off from education" ffs. They might lose their first choice school and have to reapply at other schools possibly having to goto community college. Big fecking deal. Its not even remotely comparable to the millions of victims of the drug war to fill private prisons.
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Yeah exactly. Perhaps I could have phrased myself better, but this is the general gist of what I was getting at. They lose their scholarships, and their first choice schools won’t take them. That’s fair. They’re not going to be blacklisted from every educational institute everywhere, like some seem to be claiming here.
 
How the feck are people excusing this as teenagers being teenagers? Teenagers do dumb stuff, yes, no one is denying that. But making a fecking Nazi salute, on camera, at a time when fascism/white supremacy is on the rise is not one of those dumb things all teenagers do.
 
Mogget said:
How the feck are people excusing this as teenagers being teenagers? Teenagers do dumb stuff, yes, no one is denying that. But making a fecking Nazi salute, on camera, at a time when fascism/white supremacy is on the rise is not one of those dumb things all teenagers do.
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I mean it literally is as the photo shows. Teenagers are beyond stupid.
 
oneniltothearsenal said:
None of these kids is "getting cut off from education" ffs. They might lose their first choice school and have to reapply at other schools possibly having to goto community college. Big fecking deal. Its not even remotely comparable to the millions of victims of the drug war to fill private prisons.
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I'm not putting them on the same level. So let's drop the comparisons and speak about this issue.

Kids are idiots. Easily swayed and influenced. Sending this photo across the country to different institutions of learning in the hope that admission offers get rescinded... Preventing then from being in an environment where such attitudes get challenged, preventing them from interacting with other kids of different backgrounds, offering the opportunity of such attitudes and behaviors getting reexamined and discarded... That is the behavior of a society that's lost all ability to adjuciate beyond the outrage topic of the day.

"They can attend community college"... Because those are on a lower tier? Or it reduces their chances of making it in life so right on? Or the people that attend community college aren't worth shielding from these evil kids?

It makes absolutely no sense. What would have made sense? A suspension. Removal of any honors/scholarships dependent on good behavior. More crucially, education on the actual impact of said behavior. Maybe not a funded trip to Auschwitz (shout-out to Chelsea), but a visit to the local Holocaust museum. Or a sit down with a survivor of the Holocaust. Or watch a Speilberg film. Anything that demonstrates that the school takes seriously to train the kids under their tutelage to leave better. Not discard them on the heap, and they deserve it
 
adexkola said:
I'm not putting them on the same level. So let's drop the comparisons and speak about this issue.

Kids are idiots. Easily swayed and influenced. Sending this photo across the country to different institutions of learning in the hope that admission offers get rescinded... Preventing then from being in an environment where such attitudes get challenged, preventing them from interacting with other kids of different backgrounds, offering the opportunity of such attitudes and behaviors getting reexamined and discarded... That is the behavior of a society that's lost all ability to adjuciate beyond the outrage topic of the day.

"They can attend community college"... Because those are on a lower tier? Or it reduces their chances of making it in life so right on? Or the people that attend community college aren't worth shielding from these evil kids?

It makes absolutely no sense. What would have made sense? A suspension. Removal of any honors/scholarships dependent on good behavior. More crucially, education on the actual impact of said behavior. Maybe not a funded trip to Auschwitz (shout-out to Chelsea), but a visit to the local Holocaust museum. Or a sit down with a survivor of the Holocaust. Or watch a Speilberg film. Anything that demonstrates that the school takes seriously to train the kids under their tutelage to leave better. Not discard them on the heap, and they deserve it
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Sorry, you are doing a much better job in this thread than me. I'm out of this thread.
You are a great guy Adex. Cheers
 
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