Zinedine Zidane | Resigns

Real has three very intelligent players in midfield, that have a lot of (tactical) experience. You don’t need to micro-manage Modric, Kroos and Casimiro, because their natural instincts are great. The same goes for Marcelo; at least when it comes to going forward. In my opinion that is the key to their success. Additionally Zidane seems to have a positive influence on Cristanio and adjusted his role in the team again.

Sometimes the best thing a manager can do is allow his best player to play in their best roles. It is worth remembering that he installed the current midfield triangle. He has a good eye for the strength of his players and doesn’t try to shoehorn players into new roles. He isn’t interested in pushing extremely complicated ideas onto the team either.
 
Theonas said:
I agree it is but it doesn't mean it is easier. Its chaos and relative neglect of tactics makes it more unpredictable and less dictated by pure quality which in fact makes it more difficult. I think equipped with a top squad for example, Zidane would do well with his laissez-fair attitude in a way that Pep just can't as he'd keep looking for absolute control.
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The bolded part is where I agree wit you, and I should add the physical element where the culture and crowd do not allow the players to stop, pass ,control and make the necessary temporization of play, that is why English teams are struggling more, but the competetiveness does not mean more quality of football.
 
Sammyjunn said:
I dont think Pep is trying to please the media, he is trying to perform as best as possible I think. His neglectance of defence is a glaring weakness I think for example.
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I did not said he was trying to please the media, and rightly so because the English media is clueless about tactics, and neglectance of defense is the price you pay when you want to play like he played at Barcelona or Bayern, the difference is that their players could control better the matches because they were technically better, and in England if your team wants to control the game the media and fans start saying is boring and negative.

And trying to play like that with fullbacks as Clichy, Sagna or Kolarov is useless, the critic I make to him is that he shouldn't rotate so much like the majority of Spanish coaches do, but I rather want to see his teams improving defensively attacking with many and defending with few than Simeone, who is wrongly perceived as some sort of defensive guru, when in fact what his teams do is defending with many and not with quality, any average portuguese midtable manager can do that.
 
SCP said:
The bolded part is where I agree wit you, and I should add the physical element where the culture and crowd do not allow the players to stop, pass ,control and make the necessary temporization of play, that is why English teams are struggling more, but the competetiveness does not mean more quality of football.
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I could not have put it better myself. You see a lot of people arguing that since there are a lot of foreign managers and players, the argument that the PL is not very tactical does not hold water. The reality though in my view is exactly what wrote there, the culture is too powerful for even the managers. The crowd, atmospheres, and general emotions of the PL influences them just as much if not more they do it. It is the reason many of them fall in love with it but also the reason our teams are barely ever prepared to control a game and work on their tempo and technical control.
 
SCP said:
I did not said he was trying to please the media, and rightly so because the English media is clueless about tactics, and neglectance of defense is the price you pay when you want to play like he played at Barcelona or Bayern, the difference is that their players could control better the matches because they were technically better, and in England if your team wants to control the game the media and fans start saying is boring and negative.

And trying to play like that with fullbacks as Clichy, Sagna or Kolarov is useless, the critic I make to him is that he shouldn't rotate so much like the majority of Spanish coaches do, but I rather want to see his teams improving defensively attacking with many and defending with few than Simeone, who is wrongly perceived as some sort of defensive guru, when in fact what his teams do is defending with many and not with quality, any average portuguese midtable manager can do that.
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Another very good post. The English media for some reason assumes that putting men behind the ball and defending with numbers is being great defensively. You'd hear people talk about if only *insert manager whose teams score goals* can defend like a Mourinho or Simeone team totally neglecting the fact that one affects the other directly. The view that defence and attack and two separate mechanisms in a team is still very strong and a non-negotiable. Even our team under LvG with its very strong defensive record was not acknowledged as much because it wasn't defending through 'actual' defending and more through control as though that is a negative. When any mid table team can produce a master class defensive performance through simply committing as many men as possible behind the ball and on the edge of their area, it should tell you that it's not a great tactical masterclass, it is simply a choice of where your priorities lie.
 
Theonas said:
I could not have put it better myself. You see a lot of people arguing that since there are a lot of foreign managers and players, the argument that the PL is not very tactical does not hold water. The reality though in my view is exactly what wrote there, the culture is too powerful for even the managers. The crowd, atmospheres, and general emotions of the PL influences them just as much if not more they do it. It is the reason many of them fall in love with it but also the reason our teams are barely ever prepared to control a game and work on their tempo and technical control.
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Yes but try to explain that in England and they will say to you put the ball in the box and cross to the area.

By the way if I can remember Mourinho in 2005 when he coached Chelsea he said it was difficult for him at the time to make the players focused in having more control because the crowd imediatelly wants to see chaos and running, so I only can see Guardiola improving next year if he buys top players to play his way or if he changes the style of play and turns into something more direct, less temporization and more reliant on the individual quality of the players.
 
Theonas said:
Another very good post. The English media for some reason assumes that putting men behind the ball and defending with numbers is being great defensively. You'd hear people talk about if only *insert manager whose teams score goals* can defend like a Mourinho or Simeone team totally neglecting the fact that one affects the other directly. The view that defence and attack and two separate mechanisms in a team is still very strong and a non-negotiable. Even our team under LvG with its very strong defensive record was not acknowledged as much because it wasn't defending through 'actual' defending and more through control as though that is a negative. When any mid table team can produce a master class defensive performance through simply committing as many men as possible behind the ball and on the edge of their area, it should tell you that it's not a great tactical masterclass, it is simply a choice of where your priorities lie.
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I should only add not only the English media but unfortunatelly in Portugal also, I am fed up of having discussions in forums and blogs where it is so easy to show what Atletico does is what a lot of portuguese mid table teams do, they defend with a lot of players behind the ball, the only difference is that they have more individual quality, the rest is the same, they kick a lot and put lots of men behind the ball, if that is defensive organization ...
 
Is he not basically just Madrid's Guardiola? Inherited one of the best squads in the world, will move to another nigh on unbeatable team before testing himself at a "smaller" big club
 
SCP said:
What competitive league? English football is far away from Spanish football, tactically and technically.
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By more competitive I mean a closer matched league. Outside of Athletico Madrid and Barca, Real need not worry about anyone else. Bale said as much himself. The standard is lower in the top sides in England in comparison to la Liga, but the lower ranked teams bring a much better challenge than that in Spain. That is what I'm saying.

Theonas said:
That is a very lazy comparison indeed. Pep is all about his tactics and looking for the perfect movement and positioning. Zidane is nothing like that, he is even more hands off than Ancelotti or Pellegrini. He allows his players so much more freedom than Pep would ever contemplate. In a way that is perfect for a team like Real, but there is a reason that after Barcelona, all of Europe were queuing up to get Pep and no one will be doing the same for Zidane after Real.
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IF you bothered reading it correctly - I said similar to Pep in having the opportunity to do what they wanted in their own way onto a good group players. They havent had to reform and overhaul squads generally excluding Pep at City. I didn't compare their tactical styles, more their situations when in Spain.
 
Real have a lot of young players coming up....so I wouldn't be surprised if they dominate like how Barca have been doing the last decade ...
 
Mr Anderson said:
By more competitive I mean a closer matched league. Outside of Athletico Madrid and Barca, Real need not worry about anyone else. Bale said as much himself. The standard is lower in the top sides in England in comparison to la Liga, but the lower ranked teams bring a much better challenge than that in Spain. That is what I'm saying.
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Well the difference at the top atm is more or less the same this year, what Bale means is that Real or Barcelona can rest more because they have super squads where they can rest more, and the fact that the matches are more based in technique and control maybe the physical element doesn't affect them so much.
 
The_Midfielder said:
Real have a lot of young players coming up....so I wouldn't be surprised if they dominate like how Barca have been doing the last decade ...
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This is exactly what I'm waiting for before saying Zidane is a good manager. He has done little now for me to say he is one. I would like to see him rebuild this great squad or for him to move to another club and win there.

It may be silly, but I feel most of what he's done is keep his main players happy. Even Benitez would have been a success there if the players were content with him as manager
 
SCP said:
Well the difference at the top atm is more or less the same this year, what Bale means is that Real or Barcelona can rest more because they have super squads where they can rest more, and the fact that the matches are more based in technique and control maybe the physical element doesn't affect them so much.
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And my comparison is due to their superior squads, Zidane didnt need much reform. He understands the game clearly, but overpowering la liga opposition is different to grinding results in a more balanced say premier league. It's currently tougher overall in England since the gap from smaller teams to top is far less. Thats my point. Zidane is only challenged in CL and playing the top 3-4 teams in la liga/bar random shocks.
 
Mr Anderson said:
And my comparison is due to their superior squads, Zidane didnt need much reform. He understands the game clearly, but overpowering la liga opposition is different to grinding results in a more balanced say premier league. It's currently tougher overall in England since the gap from smaller teams to top is far less. Thats my point. Zidane is only challenged in CL and playing the top 3-4 teams in la liga/bar random shocks.
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No it isn't, unless you think West Brom is better than Bilbao ,Everton than Real Sociedad, Stoke than Villareall, sorry but that is an mith sold by the English media.
 
SCP said:
No it isn't, unless you think West Brom is better than Bilbao ,Everton than Real Sociedad, Stoke than Villareall, sorry but that is an mith sold by the English media.
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Considering Villareal and Bilbao are 5th and 6th shouldn't you be comparing them with United and Arsenal? The teams in West Broms and Stoke's position are Eibar and Malaga.
 
maba723 said:
This is exactly what I'm waiting for before saying Zidane is a good manager. He has done little now for me to say he is one. I would like to see him rebuild this great squad or for him to move to another club and win there.

It may be silly, but I feel most of what he's done is keep his main players happy. Even Benitez would have been a success there if the players were content with him as manager
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Benitez is a clown, just compare the quality of play that Napoli has under Sarri and what they played under Benitez.
 
SCP said:
I should only add not only the English media but unfortunatelly in Portugal also, I am fed up of having discussions in forums and blogs where it is so easy to show what Atletico does is what a lot of portuguese mid table teams do, they defend with a lot of players behind the ball, the only difference is that they have more individual quality, the rest is the same, they kick a lot and put lots of men behind the ball, if that is defensive organization ...
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I don't think it is only better individuals. The genius of Simeone or Mourinho for me is not their tactical work as you rightly point out, it is their psychological expertise and ability to instil that unity and fighting spirit over a long period of time. Any manager can get his team to fight and be gritty in one off games. You see it often with mid table managers going to the best teams home and maybe getting a decision against them or something of the sort. The us vs world mentality that produces warrior like performances are almost instinctive then. Mourinho and Simeone however have somehow managed to do that over seasons. This is especially the case with Simeone with what amounts now to close to 5 years producing one gritty team after the other.

The approach is also limited in the sense that if you have talented players, sooner or later they will tire from playing a reactive game. This happened to Mourinho at Real when his played rebelled against the idea of always having to counter Barcelona. It gets harder with each year to get creative talented players to not play their game which explains why Wenger despite not winning anything of worth for as long as he did, can still command the admiration of players. This is less the case for Simeone I think though as he works with relatively average players when compared to the rest of European's elite.
 
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Attila said:
Considering Villareal and Bilbao are 5th and 6th shouldn't you be comparing them with United and Arsenal? The teams in West Broms and Stoke's position are Eibar and Malaga.
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I wasn't being specific, only to refute an certain myth that only in England the bottom table teams can play and in Spain there are only 3 teams.
 
SCP said:
Benitez is a clown, just compare the quality of play that Napoli has under Sarri and what they played under Benitez.
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Sorry but i disagree. Benitez is a very good coach tactically but his man management is very poor. Also he is a special character, he needs to feel that everybody around him - fans, media, players, bosses are liking him and his work. Only that way he can be successfull. I am pretty sure Rafa (if the things are going in his way at Newcastle) will give a hard time to all of the top coaches in the Premier league next season.
 
Theonas said:
I don't think it is only better individuals. The genius of Simeone or Mourinho for me is not their tactical work as you rightly point out, it is their psychological expertise and ability to instil that unity and fighting spirit over a long period of time. Any manager can get his team to fight and be gritty in one off games. You see it often with mid table managers going to the best teams home and maybe getting a decision against them or something of the sort. The us vs world mentality that produces warrior like performances are almost instinctive then. Mourinho and Simeone however have somehow managed to do that over seasons. This is especially the case with Simeone with what amounts now to close to 5 years producing one gritty team after the other.
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But that model has a lot of limitations, the current Mourinho is far away from the Mourinho of 2002/2010, he doesn't improve individually the players and his teams are more and more reliant on the individual quality of players, offensivelly there is nothing to be seen there, if the players have quality ok, if not there are no ideas.

Regarding Simeone his teams are very predictable, deffend with many and exploit mistakes, sorry but I want to see him outside Atletico to say that he is one of the greats.
 
Mr Anderson said:
IF you bothered reading it correctly - I said similar to Pep in having the opportunity to do what they wanted in their own way onto a good group players. They havent had to reform and overhaul squads generally excluding Pep at City. I didn't compare their tactical styles, more their situations when in Spain.
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I did not mean to sound aggressive in my tone if that upset. Apologies in any case. I do still think the comparison is not valid as Pep did in fact have a very clear stamp on that Barcelona team. It was unmistakeably his to the point where it made everyone else want to copy them. From Bayern to the owners and City and Abramovic, all of them wanted to replicate that specific brand. You can argue that this was misguided or unnecessary but you cannot argue that you need to have a very clear identity to inspire that kind of reaction from the footballing world. Zidane is more like Rijkaard, Ancelotti or even Enriqué, he is getting out of the way as much as possible for a manager and allowing his players to use their experience and understanding of the game. He is providing a perfect environment psychologically for them and it helps that he has such a brilliant squad and maybe more importantly, he doesn't have Pep's Barcelona to compete with like Pellegrini had.
 
PepG said:
Sorry but i disagree. Benitez is a very good coach tactically but his man management is very poor. Also he is a special character, he needs to feel that everybody around him - fans, media, players, bosses are liking him and his work. Only that way he can be successfull. I am pretty sure Rafa (if the things are going in his way at Newcastle) will give a hard time to all top coaches in the Premier league next season.
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Put an Benitez team and an Sarri team and you will see what is the team who knows how to play in positional play and what is the team who plays football from the past, nothing against the men but far away from the credit he has in England.
 
SCP said:
But that model has a lot of limitations, the current Mourinho is far away from the Mourinho of 2002/2010, he doesn't improve individually the players and his teams are more and more reliant on the individual quality of players, offensivelly there is nothing to be seen there, if the players have quality ok, if not there are no ideas.

Regarding Simeone his teams are very predictable, deffend with many and exploit mistakes, sorry but I want to see him outside Atletico to say that he is one of the greats.
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I definitely agree. I am not a fan of their approach in the least. In fact, I think they are more unsuitable to clubs that want to be considered part of the elite than a Zidane or Enriqué. I just meant that they deserve more credit and appreciation for their work than simply attributing it to individual quality. I think it is a special quality in its own right to get your teams to be that stubborn. A quality I don't personally love, but one I can nevertheless admire especially when applied in a club that is indeed an underdog like Simeone's Atlético.
 
SCP said:
No it isn't, unless you think West Brom is better than Bilbao ,Everton than Real Sociedad, Stoke than Villareall, sorry but that is an mith sold by the English media.
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As I said, the gap is still tighter in England. Teams in every other leagues could only dream of having some of the players Real and Barca have. My point still stands as the gap is tighter in England as things stand since it isnt as top heavy. Simple as that.
 
SCP said:
Put an Benitez team and an Sarri team and you will see what is the team who knows how to play in positional play and what is the team who plays football from the past, nothing against the men but far away from the credit he has in England.
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Sorry but there is no such a thing as a football from the past. Guardiola himself uses a lot of the old concepts to an extent. And why should Benitez team use the positional play?! The beauty of the football is that there are many ways to win. All are valid in my opinion if you have the right players, club and environment. Sarri's Napoli is playing good football but have won feck all.. Rafa on the other hand has won everything that there is to win in World club football.. He has won the Italian Cup with Napoli also..
 
Theonas said:
I did not mean to sound aggressive in my tone if that upset. Apologies in any case. I do still think the comparison is not valid as Pep did in fact have a very clear stamp on that Barcelona team. It was unmistakeably his to the point where it made everyone else want to copy them. From Bayern to the owners and City and Abramovic, all of them wanted to replicate that specific brand. You can argue that this was misguided or unnecessary but you cannot argue that you need to have a very clear identity to inspire that kind of reaction from the footballing world. Zidane is more like Rijkaard, Ancelotti or even Enriqué, he is getting out of the way as much as possible for a manager and allowing his players to use their experience and understanding of the game. He is providing a perfect environment psychologically for them and it helps that he has such a brilliant squad and maybe more importantly, he doesn't have Pep's Barcelona to compete with like Pellegrini had.
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no probs dude! But I'm still not comparing them as individuals at all. I was comparing their situations. They are totally different in their ways of working, not many will be of the work ethic and involvement of Pep. But both in their time had access to similar level players in their squads - and that is solely what I was comparing too, nothing else.
 
Mr Anderson said:
no probs dude! But I'm still not comparing them as individuals at all. I was comparing their situations. They are totally different in their ways of working, not many will be of the work ethic and involvement of Pep. But both in their time had access to similar level players in their squads - and that is solely what I was comparing too, nothing else.
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Fair enough!
 
Considering the way Arsenal were eviscerated by Bayern, and the heavy work Manchester United are making of the the Europa League, neither would stand much chance against Real at the moment.
Zidane was the player who really got me interested in football so I'm enjoying this. And he's surely the perfect coach for Ronaldo at this stage of his career.
 
squiggle said:
Considering the way Arsenal were eviscerated by Bayern, and the heavy work Manchester United are making of the the Europa League, neither would stand much chance against Real at the moment.
Zidane was the player who really got me interested in football so I'm enjoying this. And he's surely the perfect coach for Ronaldo at this stage of his career.
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Pretty much only 2 teams in the world are a match for Real for a few years now...
 
I start to think that he is quite underrated. Of course the team consists of 9 world class players and 2 very good ones (Navas and Casemiro) but i cannot remember a madrid side playing this disciplined, regarding tactics but also mentality.

Although they are very offensive in general, you can barely hit them on the counter, because everyone, even BBC, immediately tracks back or presses the opponent. Madrid was always known for having a great offense, but their defense really impressed me in the last matches.

I also really like the role of Isco as a completely free roaming player. If you have fullbacks like Marcelo and Carvajal, you do not really need wingers to provide width to your game.

Our second leg against them still hurts, but for me this might be the best Real side i have ever seen.
 
I think this season, as painful as it is, Madrid will become the no1 team in the world. They look close to winning La Liga and Champions League, something which they never did before IIRC. So Zidane is actually making history for Madrid.

I can't find a reason to dislike him as a manager tbh. Looks like a gentleman, speaks like a gentleman. That's how you take a chance being given to you, like Zidane did. Hard to think that just a year and a half ago they were managed by Benitez and lost to Barca 0-4 while being booed by their own fans.

Since Zidane came, they almost took the title from Barca after a great comeback, won the CL (with a lot of luck, has to be said), and in his 2nd season, when he really settled and had more time with the players, he is close to a historic double. Zidane really deserves credit for this. Let's see if he implodes like Luis Enrique after a great start. He seems smarter, and less arrogant, which is always a step in the right direction.
 
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Funny how Dortmund managed to draw both games against them in the CL group stages.
 
PepG said:
Sorry but there is no such a thing as a football from the past. Guardiola himself uses a lot of the old concepts to an extent. And why should Benitez team use the positional play?! The beauty of the football is that there are many ways to win. All are valid in my opinion if you have the right players, club and environment. Sarri's Napoli is playing good football but have won feck all.. Rafa on the other hand has won everything that there is to win in World club football.. He has won the Italian Cup with Napoli also..
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Yes right didn't win nothing so Benitez is better, sorry there is no comparison with the way this Napoli team plays under Sarri and how they played under Benitez, if you think he is great fine for you, for me he is average. :cool:
 
Yes, Rafa Benitez is a top coach in my opinion and yes it's true also that he has failed in his career more than any other top coach but that doesn't make him average. I am stopping here couse this is Zidane's thread.

What i like about Zidane's approach is his ability to transfer his own winning mentality to the squad. Real are playing with self confidence even arogance at times and that helps them to win even if not everything is going according to the plan in the games.
Obviously the Frenchman learned a lot from Ancelotti about the man management and how to handle with the big egos and the pressure. He even rotates better his squad, improves a lot the fitness level and his training sessions are fun for the players, as i have seen from the clips.

What i still don't like about Zidane is his tactical approach for most of the games. He is more conservative, more "Italian" in my view than he should be. He tends to play too cautious some times and some of the changes he makes during the games are baffling to me. He clearly also has favourites from his players (Benzema) and he plays them no matter what.

That being said Zidane is doing great with the squad he inherited.. So far he had made only one significant transfer - Alvaro Morata and he is using him as a substitute. I want to see more how Zizou will do on the transfer market, how he will try to rebuild or create his own Zidane team in the future. Then i can change my opinion if he is one of the greats among the managers or not. So far i am undecided.
 
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Against Athletico Zidane outsmart Simione in his tactical approach. On paper he fielded a 433 formation but in reality it was a 4312 with Isco roaming around as an extra midfielder, Marcelo on a free license to attack and finally Ronaldo who in defense where a left/right forward but in offense connected to Benzema and created a two man striking partnership.

IMO Isco was the key to their domination. His movements and link up play mostly gave Madrid a numrious advantage in midfield. That helped them both in offense and defense.

For those of you who are interested see the game again. It was an eye opener of the importance of numbers in midfield and a partnership of two strikers/forwards. Real Madrid 2017 Is both effective and beautiful on the eye. Credit to Zenedine Zidane, not only a great player but a excellent tactician too. (Sorry for my poor English) f
 
No doubt he's proving to be a top manager, he will probably go on to win back to back Champions League trophies, I don't care what squad of players you have not many managers could pull that off.
 
La Liga 16/17 winner
La Liga winning coach - 16/17
 
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