UK Riots (with the exception of Manchester which has its own thread)

MikeUpNorth said:
No, I'm not saying that. I am saying that police should only open fire if the person is being threatening, i.e. removing their gun from its holster or storage, or attempting to do so. The police can't just say, 'hang on I spotted that guy has a gun tucked in his belt' and then shoot him in the back of the head.
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Define threatening.... some people have said if he points it at them, but as you raised yourself, how do you know its not a replica?

The bottom line is a gun is an incredibly dangerous weapon and illegal to carry, obviously they need to be sure someones carrying one before taking deadly force.

In my book if you're walking round with a gun you should expect to be shot, if you dont like that then the answer is simple, dont carry one.

This thing of the police being expected to take chances that people might not use it or that it might not be real is utter bullshit IMO, no one ends up with a gun on them by accident, they're making a decision to carry one and if someone is carrying a gun I think its pretty naive to think they wont use it, its certainly not a chance I'd be willing to take.
 
MikeUpNorth said:
I'm not claiming it did in this case. I'm saying that it isn't true to say 'carrying a gun is reason enough'. It isn't.
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i think if you carry a gun its the risk you take, i truly don't believe the police should have to wait for someone to take a gun out of a holster and wave it around before they take action, if they know someone has a gun and could use it then they should take any action necessary to stop that person using it
 
Mickey said:
Apparently theres barricades around westfields?
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really?? are they expecting it to get crazy in west london tonight?

maybe its a precautionary measure?
 
I'm a member of clubs where walking round with a shotgun closed, whether loaded or not, whether pointed in the air or at the gound, is enough to get you thrown out (and pretty much shunned by the shooting community) for life.

Where people who use automatic shotguns or pump actions (which can't be broken and are harder to know whether they're loaded or not) are banned and generally looked down on.

Basically there's one golden rule, saftey above all else, absolutely no chances are taken when it comes to guns, and these are people who are legally carrying guns with no intention of doing harm and who are well versed in gun safety.

And people here are saying that when facing some scumbag with an illegally held illegal firearm, with no other reason to carry it than to do harm the police should cut them some slack and apply some benefit of doubt?
 
this was just posted on twitter from westfield apparently. there is another line of barriers that are twice as high further back from what people are saying

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I'd say its pretty justifiable to suggest that telling someone who is holding a gun that you are the police and they shouldn't shoot you may be unlikely to succeed.

Reminds me of the joke.

Standard procedures for the use of deadly force by world police forces:
In Europe police should say "Police, Stop or I'll Shoot"
In LA police should say "*bang*, Police, Stop or I'll Shoot"
In the UK police should say "Stop, or I'll say 'Stop' again, in a firmer tone"
 
MikeUpNorth said:
I have to disagree with that. Unless the someone is being threatening to the police or the public then the police should not have reason to use their firearms.

Being in possession (or being suspected to be in possession) is not enough to be shot in and of itself. (And that's obviously before we get on to the issues with replicas.)
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That's exactly how I feel. Possession is not enough to shoot someone.
 
iSparky said:
this was just posted on twitter from westfield apparently. there is another line of barriers that are twice as high further back from what people are saying

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My missus used to spend an unreasonable amount of time in that place. If only those barriers were up when I lived in W11 it would have saved me a frigging fortune.
 
Why the feck is Boris still on holiday? He should have come back straight away. This is a very serious situation, and constantly changing. He's meant to be the mayor.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
My missus used to spend an unreasonable amount of time in that place. If only those barriers were up when I lived in W11 it would have saved me a frigging fortune.
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:lol::lol:

Biscuit1871 said:
So is Westfield open for shoppers?
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i think its still open at the moment but wouldn't be surprised if they close it early tonight, also hearing a lot of police and riot vans are parking up at westfield now
 
another pic

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so it appears to be still open at the moment
 
MikeUpNorth said:
No, I'm not saying that. I am saying that police should only open fire if the person is being threatening, i.e. removing their gun from its holster or storage, or attempting to do so. The police can't just say, 'hang on I spotted that guy has a gun tucked in his belt' and then shoot him in the back of the head.

Basically the police should have reasonable suspicion that the suspect intends to use his weapon before they can use theirs. They don't have to actually be fired at.
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MikeUpNorth said:
I'm not claiming it did in this case. I'm saying that it's not true to say 'carrying a gun is reason enough'. It isn't.
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It's much easier to just quote Mike then write out my own responses on a phone.
 
Is this just precautionary or are they anticipating it to kick off in Shepherds Bush tonight?
 
Rumours flying around my 'ends' that the Blaham area of South London, and Shepherds Bush are the places 'to be' tonight.
 
Interesting the role of social media in all of this. It was hailed as a real force for good in Egypt but it also seems to be playing a big part in all this madness.


London riots - live blog | UK news | guardian.co.uk

My colleague Paul Lewis has got hold of one of the BBM messages that was circulating on Blackberry phones last night.

He writes:

It is hard to verify, but multiple sources have sent me this identical message - still, we need to be cautious. If authentic, it explains one of the the less reported (and understood) aspects of last night's disturbances: the appearance of a small numbers of looters in the early hours of the morning in Oxford Circus. I don't know where they came from, but central London is a long way to travel from most residential areas in the capital with no public transport. That puts to rest any doubt that the disturbances are highly organised:

Everyone from all sides of London meet up at the heart of London (central) OXFORD CIRCUS!!, Bare SHOPS are gonna get smashed up so come get some (free stuff!!!) feck the feds we will send them back with OUR riot! >:O
Dead the ends and colour war for now so
if you see a brother... SALUT!
if you see a fed... SHOOT!
We need more MAN then feds so Everyone run wild, all of london and others are invited! Pure terror and havoc & Free stuff....just smash shop windows and cart out da stuff u want! Oxford Circus!!!!! 9pm, we don't need pussyhole feds to run the streets and put our brothers in jail so tool up,
its a free world so have fun running wild shopping;)
Oxford Circus 9pm if u see a fed stopping a brother JUMP IN!!! EVERYONE JUMP IN niggers will be lurking about, all blacked out we strike at 9:15pm-9:30pm, make sure ** there see you there. REMEMBA DA LOCATION!!! OXFORD CIRCUS!!!
MUST REBROADCAST TO ALL CONTACTS!!!"

If anyone else has intelligence about BBM messages being used to orchestrate looting, please email me in confidence. paul.lewis@guardian.co.uk
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Although it does seem as thought Twitter/Facebook aren't playing as big a role as first thought.

How Blackberry, not Twitter, fuelled the fire under London’s riots

BBM is fast, free and private. It’s also created a ‘shadow social network‘ which is invisible to Police snooping.

One could well infer that Blackberry itself has specifically targeted urban youth. Jay-z is its main celebrity spokesperson in the US. A ‘secret gig’ in Shoreditch Town Hall recently featured big names from the UK rap scene – the sponsor was Blackberry.

Thus, a simple search on Twitter for phrases associated with the riots and also containing “BBM” reveals just how much the organisational loop has been created on the Blackberry network.

So while Twitter has been the noisy bystander, appearing to jeer on the thugs and amplifying the news aroud events, it’s BBM where all the real action appears to be.

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i would say precautionary but at the same time they may have information, they did say they were closely monitoring social network sites and such so maybe they have some info to go on for possible trouble there tonight
 
Utd heap said:
Rumours flying around my 'ends' that the Blaham area of South London, and Shepherds Bush are the places 'to be' tonight.
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Hopefully it stays out in Shepherds Bush and doesn't come in to Hammersmith or Kensington.
 
MikeUpNorth said:
Hopefully it stays out in Shepherds Bush and doesn't come in to Hammersmith or Kensington.
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I'm at G.F's in Streatham and i assume there is a good chance it will reach here, proper shithole near the high road, with a lot of Polish youths actually so that could be interesting.
 
Utd heap said:
I'm at G.F's in Streatham and i assume there is a good chance it will reach here, proper shithole near the high road, with a lot of Polish youths actually so that could be interesting.
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Yeah, Streatham is not a nice place in the main.
 
fair point Mike. Theres many toys and replica's that even at close up, look like real guns. Its a difficult job to distinguish, i dont envy the cops in trying to make that choice
 
Eyepopper said:
You dont think being in possession of a gun is threatening?

Why do you think people are carrying them?

As for replicas, again 2 questions here:
1. Why would someone be carrying a replica? Whats their aim? Pretty stupid fashion accessory.
2. How easy do you think it is to tell if something is a replica at distance or in the heat of the moment.

Are you saying if you were in their shoes and you were facing a guy carrying a gun you'd wait til he fired a shot at you so you could make sure he was serious and that it was real?

If so, good for you, I dont think the police should have to do that.

Bottom line is if you dont want to get shot dont carry guns, loaded, not loaded, pointed at someone, not pointed at someone, real or replica.
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what if its a kid?
 
London riots - live blog | UK news | guardian.co.uk

My colleague Paul Lewis has got hold of one of the BBM messages that was circulating on Blackberry phones last night.

He writes:

It is hard to verify, but multiple sources have sent me this identical message - still, we need to be cautious. If authentic, it explains one of the the less reported (and understood) aspects of last night's disturbances: the appearance of a small numbers of looters in the early hours of the morning in Oxford Circus. I don't know where they came from, but central London is a long way to travel from most residential areas in the capital with no public transport. That puts to rest any doubt that the disturbances are highly organised:

Everyone from all sides of London meet up at the heart of London (central) OXFORD CIRCUS!!, Bare SHOPS are gonna get smashed up so come get some (free stuff!!!) feck the feds we will send them back with OUR riot! >:O
Dead the ends and colour war for now so
if you see a brother... SALUT!
if you see a fed... SHOOT!
We need more MAN then feds so Everyone run wild, all of london and others are invited! Pure terror and havoc & Free stuff....just smash shop windows and cart out da stuff u want! Oxford Circus!!!!! 9pm, we don't need pussyhole feds to run the streets and put our brothers in jail so tool up,
its a free world so have fun running wild shopping
Oxford Circus 9pm if u see a fed stopping a brother JUMP IN!!! EVERYONE JUMP IN niggers will be lurking about, all blacked out we strike at 9:15pm-9:30pm, make sure ** there see you there. REMEMBA DA LOCATION!!! OXFORD CIRCUS!!!
MUST REBROADCAST TO ALL CONTACTS!!!"

If anyone else has intelligence about BBM messages being used to orchestrate looting, please email me in confidence. paul.lewis@guardian.co.uk
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whoever wrote that deserves to be shot for bad grammar alone
 
feck the FEDS why are they jumping MANS when they are AMERICAN?!

I'm so fecking down with this lingo.
 
golden_blunder said:
what if its a kid?
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Then the same applies, a minor with a gun is no less dangerous than an adult. The focus should be on protecting the lives of police and general public, IMO the safety of the person committing a crime should generally come second.

Thats not to say that police should just shoot first and ask questions later if someone has a gun, obviously each individual circumstance is different but I totally disagree that the police shouldn't fire unless fired upon or that carrying a gun in and of itself is not threatening, that it has to be drawn and waved about before its a threat.

EDIT: Oh I get it, you're probably suggesting a child carrying a toy gun.... Not sure its an issue, I've never seen a case where a child has been shot solely for carrying a toy gun.
 
Ive just had to drive into central London. Nightmare with most roads closed etc. I bet the people who have caused all of these problems aren't suffering at all. They probably dont work and are sat at home playing on their new xbox's etc.
 
they are probably kids off school and uni for the summer, they don't give a shit if they ruin a living other people have built
 
Eyepopper said:
:lol: Dwayne would be the exception, I hear he couldn't hit a barn door at 10 paces, you could just walk up and take it off him.

I've been around guns all my life and used them since I was 8 years old.

Respect for firearms is drilled into you and there are very strict rules in the shooting community with regards to etiquette and safety.

Anyone who thinks someone carrying a gun should be allowed take a shot before they're dealt with or that people carrying guns should be shot to 'injure' has no idea how dangerous they are and IMO watches too much TV.
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:lol: erroneous. At 10 paces everything is swiss cheese.
 
T2000 said:
Ive just had to drive into central London. Nightmare with most roads closed etc. I bet the people who have caused all of these problems aren't suffering at all. They probably dont work and are sat at home playing on their new xbox's etc.
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you mean sitting at home, playing their new xbox's
 
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