UK Riots (with the exception of Manchester which has its own thread)
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik (@Rood) is joined by CEO Duncan Drasdo and Financial Director Andy Green from the Manchester United Supporters Trust for a special episode on all things behind the scenes at Old Trafford including a brief history of MUST and their aims today, views on INEOS and Sir Jim Ratcliffe so far, and the Old Trafford regeneration.
I've just had a text from the missus in West Brom saying it has kicked off over there.
That is far more difficult to accomplish, and far more difficult to manage, I'd consider facebook as well.
Seriously, what do you suggest? Report after report is coming in of how social media is being used to the advantage of rioters so they have to be taken out of the equation, mass communications of this nature are too dangerous right now.
What a knob end.
She's deleted her account.
I'm sure they still have her details at Twitter though !
Marshall Bravestar of course!
Idiom. We say it in the North as well. Never realised English people don't say it though!
They are both issues as I've said.
There is an argument (as existentialist as it may be) which would suggest that inequality only matters if attitudes and opinions allow it to, hence some people being able to bring up kids in the worst of circumstances without it having a negative impact on the kids, or the return of a sort of village mentality to London during the blitz.
I think issues like materialism at the cost of interpersonal relationships, of a lack of importance of social involvement and connectedness in favour of material gain and self interest, are fuelling the current problems we're seeing and I think they are a bigger a problem than social inequality itself in terms of mental health and general societal happiness yes.
Simply because you can never have enough when you pursue materialistic goals (thats why the 'have nots' are simply taking what they want with little care for anyone or anything and why the 'haves' cut, kill, and depress themselves at a higher rate than ever before, why issues around personality disorders and general mental health are growing at alarming rates, and why the WHO predicts depression as being a global epidemic destined to be the worlds second most debilitating condition within 20 years).
Daniel Kahneman, a psychologist who won the Nobel Prize for behavioural economics has said there is a weak relationship between income and global life satisfaction. He said if we really want to be happy we would sleep more and spend more time with firends, not pursue greater income and buy more consumer goods.
These are attitudes, values and beliefs instilled through parenting. Also the values and beliefs which govern what we deem appropriate reactions are gained primarily from our family.
In terms of which one is easier to tackle, well neither, on an individual level its probably easier for each parent to assume responsibility and ensure they raise their children as 'good' people. Social inequality is certianly something which needs to be addressed but within a capitalist society there will always be haves and have nots so the question is, how do we ensure those who see themselves as have nots dont resort to burning down cities and just taking? For me, the answer to that is through parenting.
From another friend in North London, who knows a lot of the young rioters there, well in one specific area I won't mention. A shit load across Brent Cross and places in North have absolutely nothing to do with poor standards of life. A load of these kids are robbers, dealers and in general, their quality of life, especially with material goods is far greater than in some areas, where none of this is happening. These cnuts aren't stealing food, nor any clothes or things they need, but hd tvs, consoles, sunglasses and shit. He told me of one lad who took upto £115,000 worth of stuff.....Obviously not all of them, but a shit load of these kids aren't bad off at all, and couldn't give a feck about a cause, their financial situation, and wouldn't have done so last week either, complete opportunists.
Also he said there is a hell of a lot of shit going on in small areas of North London, which aren't being reported, and that people aren't just rioting or looting, but committing a variety of crimes down to the lack of police, or response to their actions.
Also he said there is a hell of a lot of shit going on in small areas of North London, which aren't being reported, and that people aren't just rioting or looting, but committing a variety of crimes down to the lack of police, or response to their actions.
You react by stripping more civil liberties? I thought you were against that kind of thing?
Plus ISPs are required to keep records of all internet traffic for two years.
The best idea, and I cannt claim its mine but forget where I read it is that being an adult should be a right........you become an adult at 18 with all the rights that entails, and a photocard to prove it. Any transgression of the laws of the land then result in you being stripped of that adulthood and all the rights that come with it. No vote, no fags, no alcohol, no entry to pubs and clubs, no driving licence, no benefits, no credit no say in anything until that right has been re-earned.
I am going to say a few things here that people won't like.
I wish I could be arsed digging up the Student Protest thread as it is unbelievable the amount of hypocrites that have manifested themselves in here.
What do people expect from the Police?
The attitude from the media and general public after the G20 and Student Protests was abysmal towards the Police.
You are now in a position where you have cops that are scared to use force as people like you will not only see them lose their jobs, but strung up in court facing criminal charges for doing so.
Not only that, the Police have been cut so brutally, you are now going to see the effects. No one was keen to speak up for the Police, all that was said is "well you don't deserve your wage increase", "your pensions are too much", "make cops work until they are 65" etc etc...
The country should be embarrassed as should the government.
Hope all my colleagues come home safely.
I wish I could be arsed digging up the Student Protest thread as it is unbelievable the amount of hypocrites that have manifested themselves in here.
What do people expect from the Police?
The attitude from the media and general public after the G20 and Student Protests was abysmal towards the Police.
You are now in a position where you have cops that are scared to use force as people like you will not only see them lose their jobs, but strung up in court facing criminal charges for doing so.
Not only that, the Police have been cut so brutally, you are now going to see the effects. No one was keen to speak up for the Police, all that was said is "well you don't deserve your wage increase", "your pensions are too much", "make cops work until they are 65" etc etc...
The country should be embarrassed as should the government.
Hope all my colleagues come home safely.
Yeah, I've seen quite a few mentions of people meeting up tonight, I'll know when I'm at the city tonight anyway. I'm very sure it will start here, we have a completely open shopping centre that isn't sealed off at night, people can walk in from a number of entrances, all the shopfronts are just glass, and two of the very worst neighbourhoods are minutes walking distance away, one in particular Fishermead, is pretty much already completely devoid of police and general law, so it won't take long for them.
It won't take long, but with the city being shaped the way it is, the scattered police forces as well as the number, it could be very bad here.
Exactly what I said. Opportunists, and why are they opportunists? Because they can get away with anything they want at this point in time.
So as well as hitting kids in school you know advocate shutting down the phones and internet? Are you for real?
Interesting post, but do you think abandoning the attitude of materialism/consumerism could even work within a capitalist system? If people stopped wanting to buy things, if consumer demand plummeted, the economy would crash. Hard.
Not me, even during the student protests I was for police wading in with an iron fist. It's very simple for me, if you are going to cause trouble and smash things up, then expect a battering back from the police. Therefore don't do it.
A load of these kids haven't known a hard day in their life, and such is life these days, kids living in poverty are actually kids with the latest fashions, smartphones, access to the internet and in general, are nowhere near poverty. It's not increased because a load of poor people thought this is happening, might as well get involved, it's because opportunists are seeing with every passing day that their actions won't be met with equivelant force, or haven't yet, so it's a temptation that they feel is worth the risk.
The left wing drive me crazy sometimes, London is being pushed to the brink of paralysis, the police are unable to ensure the safety of the public and their property, yet somebody gets snotty because a suggestion is made to suspend a website that is unwittingly aiding those responsible.
What do you think of the concept of a state of emergency? What do you think of the Civil Contingencies Act? What do you think about the protection of the rule of law?
Just as well you were not around in the Second World War when we had less civil liberties than at anytime in the last two hundred years, in order to protect liberty.
I'm all for the police and in favour and I wish we could remove the shackles and let them do their job again. When I was sayng how I was gobsmacked at the cops not doing anything it wasn't me having a go at the cops but surprise that it's gotten that bad that they have to take that option.
Team Brian GB said:
And there have always been riots.
The thing about riots is, they always fit effortlessly into everyone's pre-conceived narratives. For the right, it's immigration (er, look at the photos, tons of them are white) or parental ill-discipline (so why weren't the kids of the permissive middle-class hippie generation rioting, rather than peacefully protesting and then turning into yuppies?). For the left it's inequality coming home to roost (but how come other sections of the poor and discriminated against manage to haul themselves out of poverty by working their way up rather than just taking stuff?), or the dehumanising effects of consumer capitalism (meanwhile the streets of New York and Seoul and Dubai are oddly quiet).
Not saying these aren't factors, but riots have their own dynamics in the way they spark and grow and die, which aren't easy to pin down to particular causes. This guy, who's primarily a legal blogger, makes the point well:
I'd be pretty disgusted if those kind of actions were taken to be honest. The concept of rioters communicating via social networks may have been repeated throughout the last few days, but in the cases of Twitter or Facebook that could only conceivably have been happening on a pretty small scale. While you might limit the ability of rioters to communicate by shutting everything down like that, there are some pretty obvious drawbacks to shutting down all communications within troublesome areas. What are victims of violence or those trying to update the emergency services supposed to do if mobiles are shut off? And how much more frightening does the situation become for everyone if people can't contact family members or friends who are in these areas?
And that's without considering the precedent for civil liberties that would be set if the government was able to control all communications and impose curfews as some have suggested.
Thanks Guys and Gals...
These people make me proud ....
Originally posted by Ret.
These people make me proud ....
Originally posted by Ret.
Amen, and I for one think that the police NEED the freedom to decide if and when force is needed, especially where students are concerned
Agree with every word of this.
If only we had Gordon Brown to save the world again..
I don't have a major problem with it myself, I am not a libertarian. I am pointing out your hypocrisy at the barrage of criticism you directed at Labour for restricting civil liberties, when doing the exact same thing yourself at the drop of a hat.
I agree with almost all of that, apart from the last bit.
When society is broken you won't change anything by handing out pamphlets on how to be a good mum/dad (or however else you would suggest changing the parental style of an entire nation)
A much easier and quicker solution would be to invest in these sink estates. Create opportunities for these kids, be that educational or just somewhere to pass the time that doesn't involve roaming the streets. There's loads of evidence that really making an effort to engage with under-privileged kids (the type of stuff gambit is talking about) can have huge benefits in their long-term outcomes. This costs money, though. Money which is being cut back further and further all the time, thanks to the economic cluster-feck that rampant capitalism has foisted on the world.
1st death from the riots
BBCBreaking BBC Breaking News
26-year-old man shot in a car during #riots in Croydon last night has died in hospital, Scotland Yard says BBC News - UK Riots
BBCBreaking BBC Breaking News
26-year-old man shot in a car during #riots in Croydon last night has died in hospital, Scotland Yard says BBC News - UK Riots
For God sake, people on this website are unable to read sometimes, point to me please where I suggest hitting kids in school or shutting down the internet? The police shutting down individual telephone masts in areas under attack, suspending specific websites is not the shutting down of the internet.
Advocating that schools have no powers to discipline is not the same as advocating the hitting of children in school.
It's pretty fecking simple - police a legitimate protest properly and sort out a fecking criminal riot. Geddit?
i see that chap who was shot in croydon has died, RIP even if it was nothing to do with the outbreaks of violence
First death of the riots. Guy who was shot in Croydon last night. Anyone know what happened there, was it a rioter?
What about people in those areas who need to call the police or a friend to help them?
Mockney, are you ok? Still alive and all that?
So you'd close the only means for those caught in the areas to contact the emergency services if they needed it.
great to see that, makes the soul feel relatively warm after last nights scenes