There are more options than simply giving them what they want, the cuts in these areas have hit opportunities. I heard yesterday that there was a 'Connexxions' centre closed in one of the areas where people are rioting, those are useful ways of getting people into work when they're leaving education, the schools could be improved, regeneration work could provide jobs in the area etc. Social inequality is a big problem in any society, and it's almost invariably a cause when it comes to unrest. You can't just respond to it with more aggression, and looking at what else you can do isn't excusing what these criminals are doing.
UK Riots (with the exception of Manchester which has its own thread)
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik (@Rood) is joined by CEO Duncan Drasdo and Financial Director Andy Green from the Manchester United Supporters Trust for a special episode on all things behind the scenes at Old Trafford including a brief history of MUST and their aims today, views on INEOS and Sir Jim Ratcliffe so far, and the Old Trafford regeneration.
There are more options than simply giving them what they want, the cuts in these areas have hit opportunities. I heard yesterday that there was a 'Connexxions' centre closed in one of the areas where people are rioting, those are useful ways of getting people into work when they're leaving education, the schools could be improved, regeneration work could provide jobs in the area etc. Social inequality is a big problem in any society, and it's almost invariably a cause when it comes to unrest. You can't just respond to it with more aggression, and looking at what else you can do isn't excusing what these criminals are doing.
Your speculation is 100% correct. In fact, I read a comment from someone high up in the Met that they've already been forced to send in police who didn't have the right training. Which is an absolute last resort.
Guess I was a bit wide of the mark when I accused you of being melodramatic last night!
Yeh I think this number is strictly a panic, we are in a fecked situation type of number. I do believe they could have prevented yesterdays riots had the police presence have been greater on Saturday/Sunday. As you say though there is no way that all of those officers are ready for that type of scenario.
Exactly!
You cannot expect people to defend their property when they are outnumbered unless they have a gun.
Yeah I heard from the former commander yesterday on BBC saying that most out there just aren't trained for this at all. Well, I could have been and it just happened to spiral out of control, I can understand why it sounded melodramatic.
If you can't reply to me in a proper manner then don't reply.
You did, to be fair.
And you also made an interesting point about the vacuum left by the previous generation of criminals, who at least understood that they had a vested interest in retaining some sort of order in their "manor".
The big problem here is the age of the miscreants. They're far too immature to be able to think about the bigger picture of their actions. I read a really interesting interview with a gang leader from one of the big crews in London who said that his peers were all shocked at just how reckless the very youngest kids on these estates could be. They really don't give a feck about anyone or anything. Scary stuff.
I did reply in a "proper manner". I asked you a direct question. Are you going to answer it?
Me too, I wish they had taken a harder stance at the start of this. Of course hindsight is a wonderful thing, they wouldn't have expected this mayhem to this extent, but at the same time, a lot of us were wondering how exactly calm and order would be restored, if these little feckers have nothing to fear from, no response from the police only incites them further, and plays into the lawlessness we are seeing. It's also sending out a horrible message to other communities and areas, especially as we've seen areas outside of London turning to this, it's appeal will only spread further.
I understand about all the wankers who might have screamed police brutality and complained about a heavy-handed approach, well we are seeing the other side of the spectrum at the moment. Yes, there would have been unfair blame, but at the same time, that is not the priority. The priority should be the safety of the people and the community, at the moment this seems to have taken a backseat into contatining the situation, which also does not seem to be happening. In that sense, nothing is being achieved by sitting back, at some point we have to embrace the idea of force against the riots, but will it come at a point too late? Don't get me wrong though, I'm not blaming the police, as perhaps this might have been a lot worse, but with all that in mind, something has to happen now right?
The people involved obviously consider it acceptable Pogue. People here are trying to understand when and why that became the case.
Social inequality and division are and always have been factors however its the responses to them that cause things like this.
The causes are multidimensional, multigenerational and complex yet you've only pointed towards the social division factor. There are different responses even within the same social divisions and thats where other questions like attitudes, values and the role of parenting come in.
You're telling me I'm throwing up strawmen arguments, I dont think I am. I've done a lot of research and written a few papers on values, morals conditions of worth within society. The role of society in self discrepancy. I'm not claiming to be a fountain of knowledge on it all but I dont consider the questions I'm putting forward to be strawman arguments.
The suggestion that what I'm saying equates to someone saying smoking doesn't cause cancer because not everyone smokes is the best example of a strawman argument in this thread so far.
EDIT: No one is refusing the accept that social and class divides are a factor, just not everyone agrees that they are an overriding factor.
I'm not sure that was why they adopted a fairly hands off approach. I assume the logic was that they would rather these riots focus on property, rather than a running battle with the police. As they didn't have the resources to cope with the latter scenario on so many fronts.
There's a possibility that going in really heavy on the initial disturbances might have prevented further rioting in other areas. It could also have dramatically increased the level of violence and casualties though. I'm not sure if this was about PR, so much as practicalities.
Looks like mob rule out on the streets. Fair play to them protecting their business though.
Bet mafia activity has shot up past few nights.
Bet mafia activity has shot up past few nights.
To be honest no one could predict the level of this, unless like one of my theories it has been organised. Though even then the vast extent of the damage is just the little cnuts joining the ride. That said, it doesn't surprise me they have done this much damage because the police in this country is too passive. Worried about PC, and repercussions, and as you said the wankers who cry brutality.
I ask you though - would you rather have to deal with complaints of a hoodrat screaming about injuries in which he rightfully gained through partaking in a violent riot, burning peoples businesses/homes etc. Or have to deal with the millions of pounds of damage? For it is a blatantly simple decision, and one which made earlier would have prevented a lot of heart-ache.
The UK has gone soft on this type of thing.
For three days now these hooligans have been allowed to control the streets. Where is the tear gas? Where are the water cannons?
The French, Germans, Swiss, and Italians all would have deployed these tactics and this would have been sorted out from the get go.
Call it heavy handed, whatever you like, but it would have been dealt with.
The UK is a joke.
For three days now these hooligans have been allowed to control the streets. Where is the tear gas? Where are the water cannons?
The French, Germans, Swiss, and Italians all would have deployed these tactics and this would have been sorted out from the get go.
Call it heavy handed, whatever you like, but it would have been dealt with.
The UK is a joke.
No water cannons - this is just preposterous. What about rubber bullets?
The straw men I'm referring to are the numerous posts inferring that people who raise the issues of poverty or social exclusion are trying to claim the riots were somehow justified. Which is clearly not the case.
I used the smoking analogy to highlight the fallacy of the logic that because some under-privileged kids grow up as model citizens, we can conclude that generations of inner city deprivation didn't play an important role in what happened.
I think water cannon are banned on main land UK , there is none to use.
They have them in Northern Ireland.
I dont think the Police can use Rubber Bullets unless there is a State of Emergency called.
No Pogue I'm not. That sentence of yours with the question mark at the end implies that I've intimated something that I have not intimated. We both know that don't we.
You're just miffed because I made a point about poverty and social exclusion....your straw man arguement throughout this thread.
Iran urges UK to restrain police
Iran has called on the British police to exercise restraint against people protesting over the killing of a Black man in London.
Iranian Foreign Ministry Spokesman Ramin Mehmanparast urged the British government to order the police to stop their violent confrontation with the people, IRNA reported in the early hours of Tuesday.
Mehmanparast asked the British government to start dialogue with the protesters and to listen to their demands in order to calm the situation down.
The Iranian official also asked independent human rights organizations to investigate the killing in order to protect the civil rights and civil liberties.
The unrest began on Saturday when a few hundred people gathered outside a police station in Tottenham to protest against the fatal shooting of Mark Duggan on Thursday.
The protesters also set a bus and buildings on fire on High Road and broke many shop windows.
Turmoil is now threatening to sweep across all of Britain as the unfolding mayhem and looting has also raged the central city of Birmingham, the western city of Bristol, the northwestern city of Liverpool, and south London neighborhood of Brixton.
Turmoil is now threatening to sweep across all of Britain as the mayhem and looting has also spread to the central city of Birmingham, the western city of Bristol, the northwestern city of Liverpool, and south London neighborhood of Brixton.
Police said they have arrested more than 200 people since the unrest began.
PressTV - Iran urges UK to restrain police
Iran has called on the British police to exercise restraint against people protesting over the killing of a Black man in London.
Iranian Foreign Ministry Spokesman Ramin Mehmanparast urged the British government to order the police to stop their violent confrontation with the people, IRNA reported in the early hours of Tuesday.
Mehmanparast asked the British government to start dialogue with the protesters and to listen to their demands in order to calm the situation down.
The Iranian official also asked independent human rights organizations to investigate the killing in order to protect the civil rights and civil liberties.
The unrest began on Saturday when a few hundred people gathered outside a police station in Tottenham to protest against the fatal shooting of Mark Duggan on Thursday.
The protesters also set a bus and buildings on fire on High Road and broke many shop windows.
Turmoil is now threatening to sweep across all of Britain as the unfolding mayhem and looting has also raged the central city of Birmingham, the western city of Bristol, the northwestern city of Liverpool, and south London neighborhood of Brixton.
Turmoil is now threatening to sweep across all of Britain as the mayhem and looting has also spread to the central city of Birmingham, the western city of Bristol, the northwestern city of Liverpool, and south London neighborhood of Brixton.
Police said they have arrested more than 200 people since the unrest began.
PressTV - Iran urges UK to restrain police
but then we also have to accept the fact that not all well off or rich kids grow up to be model citizens either. Sometimes people are just shits regardless of their economic and social standing.
Does anyone really give a shit about weather reports? It's going to be a bit cloudy, and a bit rainy, and the temperatures will drop, and it's going to be windy.. what is all this crap?!
The youngest are 14 hate to have there injury on my conscience.
Well yes but who is more likely to get drawn into a life of crime?
A kid that went to Eton or a kid that grew up in a tower block?
We both know the latter is true. Is this because the "shits" gene is somehow more prevalent in people born into poverty? Or is because of, perhaps, the environment they grow up in?
I take it you don't live in the UK then as this is one of the greatest places to live on earth.
Yet you are completely ok with them burning buildings. Fair trade.
Really? Old enough to know right from wrong....feck em.
Iran urges UK to restrain police
Iran has called on the British police to exercise restraint against people protesting over the killing of a Black man in London.
Iranian Foreign Ministry Spokesman Ramin Mehmanparast urged the British government to order the police to stop their violent confrontation with the people, IRNA reported in the early hours of Tuesday.
Mehmanparast asked the British government to start dialogue with the protesters and to listen to their demands in order to calm the situation down.
The Iranian official also asked independent human rights organizations to investigate the killing in order to protect the civil rights and civil liberties.
The unrest began on Saturday when a few hundred people gathered outside a police station in Tottenham to protest against the fatal shooting of Mark Duggan on Thursday.
The protesters also set a bus and buildings on fire on High Road and broke many shop windows.
Turmoil is now threatening to sweep across all of Britain as the unfolding mayhem and looting has also raged the central city of Birmingham, the western city of Bristol, the northwestern city of Liverpool, and south London neighborhood of Brixton.
Turmoil is now threatening to sweep across all of Britain as the mayhem and looting has also spread to the central city of Birmingham, the western city of Bristol, the northwestern city of Liverpool, and south London neighborhood of Brixton.
Police said they have arrested more than 200 people since the unrest began.
PressTV - Iran urges UK to restrain police
They have to be taking the piss , they would of waded in killed 100's of people.
How much more restrained to they want the Police , sat in the pub having a pint
but you would rather have on your conscience a police officer with a brick in his head?
Oh i agree that there is more pressure and ease to join the criminal elements in poverty stricken areas, but the way you do it and the morals you choose to govern your actions are still your own to decide.
think this is the poorly educated, wannabe gangster, young and unemployed face of Britain at its finest
i get the feeling these riots are going to get worse before they get better......you could see this spreading to a few more major cities
the army should be on the streets to help the police.......
the government need to do something about the 16-25 year olds who are involved in this sort of thing, have no prospects and feel excluded from society
maybe some sort of 'national service' (in the community) for the long term unemployed
i get the feeling these riots are going to get worse before they get better......you could see this spreading to a few more major cities
the army should be on the streets to help the police.......
the government need to do something about the 16-25 year olds who are involved in this sort of thing, have no prospects and feel excluded from society
maybe some sort of 'national service' (in the community) for the long term unemployed
What you said was that my point about the role of differing parenting standards being a factor was irrelevant, and that the evidence of this, that not all kids from the bad side of the tracks have the same attitudes, was a strawman arguement akin to saying cigarettes don't cause cancer because not everyone that smokes gets cancer.
I never said we can conclude that inner city deprivation didn't play an important role, in fact I agreed, twice that it did.
My argument was that attitudes and reactions to this have changed over generations, in my view mainly due to parenting and parental priorities, and that these changes in attitude and acceptable response are as big a factor, if not bigger, than the poverty and inequality themselves.
Iran being mischeivous and I don't blame them we do the same and pontificate.
I remember reading yesterday that Cameron was going to meet up with Cobra today in the morning, any news on anything there?
One of the rioter's twitter account: Twitter
These 16-25 olds have opportunities that billions would die for. They want it now and dint to work for it. I said a while back their should be parenting licenses I think only Dwayne agreed.
Im from the UK, I dont live there anymore and I can tell you I am very thankful for that, esepcially when I see the state it is in at the minute.
guardian home page have a live feed as to BBC. He is just increasing policing numbers and recalling parliament for 1 day. Joke.