UK Riots (with the exception of Manchester which has its own thread)

Team Brian GB said:
Benefits are not a human right, they are a privilege. It is this sort of attitude that leads to a complacent sense of entitlement.
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While it's easy and quite tempting to assume that everyone on benefits is earning in "other ways" it's pointless even considering this because it cannot be proven. Even if you have a strong hunch, it's irrelevant.

And so it's bearing this in mind that until proven, it has to be assumed that a person on Job Seeker's Allowance who is also availing of housing benefit is genuinely trying to find a job. Due to being unemployed the financial assistance is required in order to meet a person's basic human rights.

So yes I understand what you are saying regarding benefits being a privilege, but ultimately benefit is money to support someone seeking employment.

Can I also add; try telling that bloke who has Chron's disease that Incapacity Benefit is a privilege. All he wants to do is work. The benefit is meeting his human rights
 
Team Brian GB said:
They will live by not committing crime and by making something of themselves. Everybody in the country gets free education to 18, everybody in the country has access to university free at the point of use.

For too long we have allowed people to become complacent and not take responsibility for their actions or their future. It is not the duty of the government to provide for those who cannot be bothered.
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So to be clear - if you get a criminal record, and haven't sufficiently proven repentance, you have to live with no legitimate income. Apart from the moral implications of letting people starve to death for crimes like theft, this is very likely to increase crime, as these people will have even less to lose by committing crime, and potentially their life to lose if they don't. It is an atrocious, short sighted idea.
 
Xander45 said:
The mother they had on a few minutes ago with her kids had just as bad a logic.

Woman: "If they're seen as scum they'll act as scum won't they."

Random bloke walks into shot "But that doesn't give them the right to come and smash the place up does it?"

Woman "Yeah, well is it fair that a guy in London got shot for nothing?"

Man "What's that got to do with wrecking our shops here?"

Woman "Well that's why all this is happening."

I mean come on, the reason there are riots in Salford is because a guy in London that no one in Salford had even heard of before got shot made them riot. They know damn well they saw it on the tele the other night and thought "If they're doing it and getting away with it why aren't we getting in on it?"
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Yeah - there's a lot of that floating around. Rioting under the guise of political protest. It's absolute bollocks - it's just bald, naked criminality.

What many of the cretins are overlooking is that Mark Duggan was a known criminal that was packing heat. In those circumstances, I'm fully in favour of the police firing. The subsequent response is nothing but the 'looking for sympathy' culture being manifested by a portion of the black community who have unwarranted chips on their shoulders. The whole reaction to his killing has been disproportionate and opportunistic:

Black children think the police are racist. We must teach them about the 1980s – Telegraph Blogs
 
Kinky Melinky said:
Can I just throw my two pence in on this one. I'm not taking sides because I think I'm somewhere half way between.

As some of you may know I work for a private company sub-contracted to the government. Our job is to take on a large portion of Job Centre Plus staff and help them back into employment. Needless to say I meet a lot of unemployed people in my week

Some of them are unfortunate in their circumstances and are out of work for genuine reasons. It might be through illness. For example I was chatting to this highly successful, intelligent middle aged man who cannot work due to Crohn's Disease. The poor bugger desperately wants to work but he can't. It all hinges on an operation he awaits

Then you get those who haven't got great experience, their skills are outdated but they still really want to work. Obviously you have to help them as much you can with courses and what not.

But then you get the largest group of all; the customers who simply do not want to work. I deal with this crowd. I meet 50 - 60 of them a week. Some for the first time and others I've seen time and time again within my case load. I have got to say that they all sing the same tune, and this is coming directly from the heart of it. I'm not speaking my opinion here, I am talking facts. Some of them are just so fecking arrogant it's not even funny. They almost look down on you because their housing situation is safe, they're earning money via a cash in hand arrangement and they are collecting their £160 odd every second week.

One of the most consistent conversations I find I'm having with this particular category is whether it's worth their while working from a financial perspective. We actually have a person employed who works it out for them based on various criteria. I'm not the one who brings this conversation up. It's always the customer. They are fully aware that it is completely pointless for them to go back to work (even working 37.5 hours per week) if the wage isn't right. They lose too many benefits and ultimately end up losing out. So they come in week in, week out and pretend to be interested in order to avoid being sanctioned by the Job Centre Plus. Most of them are aware, based on their skill sets and work experience, that the chances of landing a job that leaves them better off is slim.

This has to be considered, and a look at the government's approach to benefits has also to be considered before valid opinions are formed regarding benefits in general. People think differently. Some people just need to work to feel sane, and they are the ones who are glad to get off benefits and get into a job they might have the chance to work their way up in. Others just think of money, don't really see themselves as promotional material and would rather take an easier option. I have found that these are the people who complain the most when the government take a harder line obviously because it directly effects them. They are also the ones who moan most about the Police, the Government and they do not vote. We take statistics on all our customers

I personally feel the main problem keeping people on benefits is the fact that once you work over 15 hours a week you lose your benefits. In a job market that is volatile to say the least, those who collect the dole and are having their rent paid for them do not see the valid reason in working, particularly if they have other means of earning that are near impossible to detect
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Insightful post. The solution isn't to drive those out of work further into poverty by cutting back benefits, but to raise the wages of low paying jobs to make them worthwhile.
 
Feed Me said:
Yeah - there's a lot of that floating around. Rioting under the guise of political protest. It's absolute bollocks - it's just bald, naked criminality.

What many of the cretins are overlooking is that Mark Duggan was a known criminal that was packing heat. In those circumstances, I'm fully in favour of the police firing. The subsequent response is nothing but the sympathy culture being manifest by a portion of the black community who have unwarranted chips on their shoulders. The whole reaction to his killing has been disproportionate and opportunistic:

Black children think the police are racist. We must teach them about the 1980s – Telegraph Blogs
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I don't see it as being under the guise of anything. In the interviews with rioters I've seen, there's been no mention of Mark Duggan being shot, it's only the people who are looking for explanations who have said that. The people who are rioting's excuses have been in the vein of 'We do what we want' or
'feck the Police' and such. Any rioting on behalf of Duggan's death is completely unjustified though, the least they could do is wait for the investigation to finish.
 
This is a consequence of capitalism and bad policy. The elite control the middle and working classes though the under class.
 
MikeUpNorth said:
Insightful post. The solution isn't to drive those out of work further into poverty by cutting back benefits, but to raise the wages of low paying jobs to make them worthwhile.
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Could well be Mike. Like I say, I only speak from frontline experience and perhaps it shines a realistic light on things

All I can tell you is what these people are telling me first hand
 
Kinky Melinky said:
While it's easy and quite tempting to assume that everyone on benefits is earning in "other ways" it's pointless even considering this because it cannot be proven. Even if you have a strong hunch, it's irrelevant.

And so it's bearing this in mind that until proven, it has to be assumed that a person on Job Seeker's Allowance who is also availing of housing benefit is genuinely trying to find a job. Due to being unemployed the financial assistance is required in order to meet a person's basic human rights.

So yes I understand what you are saying regarding benefits being a privilege, but ultimately benefit is money to support someone seeking employment.

Can I also add; try telling that bloke who has Chron's disease that Incapacity Benefit is a privilege. All he wants to do is work. The benefit is meeting his human rights
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My sister has a serious case of Crohn's so you don't need to tell me that there are some people who genuinely need help. The state should be in the business of helping those who are struggling and are trying to make their lives better, that I think should be staunchly defended but it should be more conditional.

Those who commit crime whilst on benefits should have them revoked, and those who went through school doing nothing and coming away with nothing should get far less benefits though I would offer them GCSEs at college and then give them the standard rate if they pass.


I'd consider the notion of not allowing people to leave school without 5 GCSEs without at least one round of retakes, I certainly would not allow them to go straight to benefits at 18 from that.
 
Grinner said:
Hopefully Richard Littlejohn will ride in and give us the solutions.

The man's a visionary when it comes to this stuff.
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:lol:

I can't believe these are serious suggestions though, what the feck?

How can they not foresee that this is not a solution, and cause the same problems in the future?
 
Feed Me said:
(1) The state provides educational entitlement, but in 99% of cases, the facilities afforded to those from impoverished backgrounds is far inferior to those in relatively affluent areas. Straight away, it's not a level playing field.

I come from an area where the local schools are far worse than the grammar school my parents bust their arses to send me to. Straight away, I had a big advantage...
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I think you're missing my point somewhat, the state offers an education. The opportunity is there for everyone to gain GCSE qualifications. I got into grammar school but declined it as i preferred the state education environment.

Feed Me said:
(2)... which neatly ties into my second point. Not everyone is fortunate enough to come from a stable family. Some of these kids committing crimes are feral. They've got no structure. Civic culture and respect is fostered primarily in the household. If a kid has had no family structure during their formative years, are we shocked to see them jump on the bandwagon?

For me, the state provides education to all, but the minimum standard that they provide is not good enough.
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I wasn't born into a stable family, moved often as a kid & my mother was a single parent for the majority of my school life. However the values of school was installed at an early age & my mother bust a gut to ensure we got to school and took advantage of something we got for nothing. It is down to the parents and values they have.

Am i shocked to see them jump on the bandwagon? Not really, however this isn't a time to criticise education. The system works at the moment, the issue is with the individuals not valuing what is there on the table. Bit of a cliche, but take it to a country with no education at all & you would see people biting their hands off for the chance of a free education.

Feed Me said:
I'd be all for schools to be fee paying, on a sliding scale depending on family income. All the revenue generated could be pumped directly back into the education system. Human beings are far too individualistic for such a system though...
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Sliding scale? That's mad. You'll then create a two tier system where by you'll have people who have to pay for education and the ones that don't won't be arsed to go or do anything with it. Kind of like unemployment at the moment, people know their rent will be paid so they can't be arsed to work as they get everything covered if they don't do anything.
 
Brian

You are dealing with the symtoms and the main consquence is we have an aneamic growth rate because of the policies of governments to concentrate on services and financial industry. We are gorwing as a population via birth rates and immigration faster than the economy.
 
kietotheworld said:
I don't see it as being under the guise of anything. In the interviews with rioters I've seen, there's been no mention of Mark Duggan being shot, it's only the people who are looking for explanations who have said that. The people who are rioting's excuses have been in the vein of 'We do what we want' or
'feck the Police' and such. Any rioting on behalf of Duggan's death is completely unjustified though, the least they could do is wait for the investigation to finish.
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I've no doubt that it's snowballed and peoples' motivations have changed as the week has gone on but, initially, numerous people were justifying their actions in the name of protest. That shooting was the watershed moment. Whether these rioters really give a shit about Duggan is irrelevant, they've opportunistically seized his death to rob, pillage and destroy.

Any rioting on behalf of Duggan is unjustified, period, in my opinion. The man was a convicted criminal, with known criminal connections. He was also carrying a firearm. I heard his brother say in the aftermath something along the lines of, "oh, but he wasn't stupid enough to shoot at police." He was fecking stupid enough to be carrying a dangerous weapon though.

It makes me laugh how sections of the black community have swept the facts under the carpet to pedal their racist-victims agenda. There is an ingrained gang culture/lack of civic value amongst that community and that is the reason they, statistically, have more run ins with the police - not because coppers are institutionally racist.
 
MikeUpNorth said:
Insightful post. The solution isn't to drive those out of work further into poverty by cutting back benefits, but to raise the wages of low paying jobs to make them worthwhile.
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Alas, the current market adjustments the west needs to make probably mean everyone's benefits and wages will be on the slide for the foreseeable future.

The lack of disparity between low paying jobs and benefits is a major issue in the UK.
 
Feed Me said:
I've no doubt that it's snowballed and peoples' motivations have changed as the week has gone on but, initially, numerous people were justifying their actions in the name of protest. That shooting was the watershed moment. Whether these rioters really give a shit about Duggan is irrelevant, they've opportunistically seized his death to rob, pillage and destroy.

Any rioting on behalf of Duggan is unjustified, period, in my opinion. The man was a convicted criminal, with known criminal connections. He was also carrying a firearm. I heard his brother say in the aftermath something along the lines of, "oh, but he wasn't stupid enough to shoot at police." He was fecking stupid enough to be carrying a dangerous weapon though.

It makes me laugh how sections of the black community have swept the facts under the carpet to pedal their racist-victims agenda. There is an ingrained gang culture/lack of civic value amongst that community and that is the reason they, statistically, have more run ins with the police - not because coppers are institutionally racist.
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well said
 
Team Brian GB said:
Those who commit crime whilst on benefits should have them revoked
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Well they actually do in a round about way. Being on Job Seeker's Allowance is actually quite unforgiving. I don't know how these guys do it week in, week out. I'd go fecking mad.

If a customer fails to turn up for an appointment at either the Job Centre Plus or one of the private sub-contracted companies the customer's Benefits will be sanctioned for a period of time. If a customer is offered an interview for a job they have full ability to do yet turns it down they will be sanctioned. If a customer is offered a job that they are capable of doing but turns it down it's an offense that warrants a sanction of up to 6 months. The list goes on. It's not nice being on Job Seeker's Allowance and in my experience, the vast majority of customer that do not want to be on it get off it reasonably quickly via employment.

This is why it's so easy to see those who cling on and hang about. Come in with the big cheesy smiles and friendly hand shakes just to show face so the Job Centre Plus won't sanction.

I know this isn't really related to breaking the law but I don't think law breaking is the job centre plus' area. I think they would make too many mistakes in that area that could result in a disaster. The police won't delve into Job Seeker's Allowance so I assume unless the person is convicted they will remain on Job Seekers Allowance.
 
F-Red said:
Sorry to single you out Mike, but we don't experience anything like poverty in the UK. Hard times, yes. Poverty, not by a long shot.
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UK Poverty :: Facts about poverty in the UK :: Oxfam GB

Poverty is relative to the society you live in. And it isn't even just poverty that matters, it's inequality in itself. It's the disparity between rich and poor that is the issue, not just how poor the poor are in absolute terms.
 
F-Red said:
I think you're missing my point somewhat, the state offers an education. The opportunity is there for everyone to gain GCSE qualifications. I got into grammar school but declined it as i preferred the state education environment. (1)

I wasn't born into a stable family, moved often as a kid & my mother was a single parent for the majority of my school life. However the values of school was installed at an early age & my mother bust a gut to ensure we got to school and took advantage of something we got for nothing. It is down to the parents and values they have. (2)

Am i shocked to see them jump on the bandwagon? Not really, however this isn't a time to criticise education. The system works at the moment, the issue is with the individuals not valuing what is there on the table. Bit of a cliche, but take it to a country with no education at all & you would see people biting their hands off for the chance of a free education.

Sliding scale? That's mad. You'll then create a two tier system where by you'll have people who have to pay for education and the ones that don't won't be arsed to go or do anything with it. Kind of like unemployment at the moment, people know their rent will be paid so they can't be arsed to work as they get everything covered if they don't do anything. (3)
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On point (1) - fair play to you. I'm guessing that the state school you opted to go to was of a good standard? I'm not saying that all grammar schools are better than state, that's clearly not the case. But I think my point still stands - while the government provides a minimum level of education to all children, the standard of that education wildly varies from area to area.

I recently volunteered in a secondary school near to where I work and was astounded at how poor the facilities/conditions/teaching were. It is a school which recently merged with another one, has felt the austerity measures and is just generally struggling. The site is delapidated, the classes are oversized, the facilities are old fashioned and all of that combines to drain morale from kids and teachers alike.

So while I agree that there are basic education standards across the board, some kids get the bare minimum, while others get far more.

(2) It has everything to do with family and upbringing. These are the people that instil values within you and teach you about morality. You say you come from an unconventional family unit, but nonetheless, it sounds as though you had a real figure to look up to and someone who kept you on the straight and narrow.

Some kids move from carer to carer, suffer from abuse and so on. Their lack of basic morality is not surprising.

(3) This is really a debate for another day - it all depends on your politics. But, quickly, I fail to see how a progressive system of educational funding would lead to two tiers. If anything a two-speed educational system is what we have now - with the worst getting worse and the better getting better. There's a black hole in the middle and it's called crime.
 
Feed Me said:
I've no doubt that it's snowballed and peoples' motivations have changed as the week has gone on but, initially, numerous people were justifying their actions in the name of protest. That shooting was the watershed moment. Whether these rioters really give a shit about Duggan is irrelevant, they've opportunistically seized his death to rob, pillage and destroy.

Any rioting on behalf of Duggan is unjustified, period, in my opinion. The man was a convicted criminal, with known criminal connections. He was also carrying a firearm. I heard his brother say in the aftermath something along the lines of, "oh, but he wasn't stupid enough to shoot at police." He was fecking stupid enough to be carrying a dangerous weapon though.

It makes me laugh how sections of the black community have swept the facts under the carpet to pedal their racist-victims agenda. There is an ingrained gang culture/lack of civic value amongst that community and that is the reason they, statistically, have more run ins with the police - not because coppers are institutionally racist.
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Were people justifying the rioting with the death? I didn't catch much of the coverage of that, I know there was a protest, a legitimate protest, at his killing, but I wasn't aware that the violence has been justified by it. What's happened since that night is completely separate though.

Generally I'd agree with you about the riots being unjustifiable as a result of the death - if a guy is carrying a gun then he takes his life into his own hands and if he doesn't surrender to the police immediately then he gets what's coming to him. There was a rumour though, that he was executed when he was restrained, it's probably baseless, but if that were true then it'd be somewhat justified. If someone appears to be carrying a firearm and posing a threat to life though, the police have every right to shoot that person, whether it's a real gun or a replica is irrelevant, and they certainly don't have to wait until he kills someone.
 
Hang on Plech... "we 'ought' to start a new forum". Ought rhymes with 'short'. Silly me.
 
kietotheworld said:
Were people justifying the rioting with the death? I didn't catch much of the coverage of that, I know there was a protest, a legitimate protest, at his killing, but I wasn't aware that the violence has been justified by it. What's happened since that night is completely separate though.

Generally I'd agree with you about the riots being unjustifiable as a result of the death - if a guy is carrying a gun then he takes his life into his own hands and if he doesn't surrender to the police immediately then he gets what's coming to him. There was a rumour though, that he was executed when he was restrained, it's probably baseless, but if that were true then it'd be somewhat justified. If someone appears to be carrying a firearm and posing a threat to life though, the police have every right to shoot that person, whether it's a real gun or a replica is irrelevant, and they certainly don't have to wait until he kills someone.
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The legitimate protest, very quickly, turned into illegitimate rioting. Certainly, the Tottenham riots were justified by many protagonists in the name of Duggan's death.

As I said, you are correct in saying that many of the copycat rioters in other areas have just jumped on the bandwagon with the attitude of, "I'm here for the craic," but they are still, implicitly, rooted in the Duggan killing. That was the ultimate start point for this.

On the gun debate, at the risk of sounding ignorant and reductionist, even if the police have done him in, it's no real shame. He relinquished his civil and human rights the moment he stepped outside of the limits of society's rules by arming himself.

He wasn't just using that gun for decorative purposes. The riots are unjustified irrespective of whether the police have done him or not. It's disturbing that a section of society seem prepared to defend a man that was carrying a gun. No gun = no death.
 
Xander45 said:
Seems as though the big police presence around the country is doing a good job so far. I just hope that they won't need to keep this big a presence long term.
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At the risk of doing a Michael Fish, you've gotta feel we're over the worst. London has been locked down by police and in the Midlands, where I am, there has been far less disruption today compared to yesterday.
 
peterstorey said:
They can't keep 16,000 coppers in the field in London, they'll drop it by the weekend and it'll kick off again. There needs to be a marker 'win' by the police before it's over.
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No they won't. There's been over 700 arrests in the last 2 days in London alone. Those who thought they could get away with it now know they can't and many of the people who would've been out doing it now can't.

I've been saying this shit would calm down quickly and everything return to normal since the 2nd day. I see nothing to alter that view. Though hopefully a few people might stop being hysterical now.
 
Sangat tv at midlands police headquarters for an interview. Scores of vans with coppers ready in em.
 
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Wait, the Vancouver riot is still happening?? Oh people riot in other places for dumb reasons too?!
 
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