Phil Jones

noodlehair said:
Every transfer is a punt to a degree. I've left off Veron and Hargreaves, who weren't signed for peanuts. In fact Veron's signing was a British record fee for a long while if I remember rightly.

The problem with the likes of Djemba is that they formed the basis of our first team in many games for that season. They weren't fringe punt signings who might turn out to be decent squad players. They were signed to try and maintain us as one of the top sides in Europe, and as a result our standards slipped and it took Fergie some amount of time to build them back up again (which to be fair you can't argue he hasn't done extremely well).

Christ you lot are precious sometimes.
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Yeah, they're very strange omissions, seeing as they really stand out as the two biggest blots on Fergie's record in the transfer market (for very different reasons)



Precious? No need to get so defensive. Just think that Fergie's record in the transfer market is as good, if not better, than any other manager I can think of. Which is not the impression you'd get reading posts like the one from you and Plech.
 
I sometimes think all these discussions about specific managers in the transfer market are misleading anyway because no one ever mentions scouts - Solskjaer was a blinding signing but was recommended to Ferguson, for example. Some of the discussions here almost make it sound like everything is down to the manager. I remember the major role of Martin Ferguson in signing Forlan, for example, or the fact that SAF didn't even see Bebe before signing him.

FWIW, I honestly think you see the gambler side to Ferguson's character in a lot of his buys - Obertan and Bebe, for example, were just simple punts that would have looked great if they'd come off but don't really cost the club if they don't. With Michael Owen, I think he just fancied seeing if he could rescue the career of someone he always liked and who had had a shit 4-5 seasons. I even think De Gea shows the gambler in him - there were certainly far easier options but I really think SAF likes giving himself and everyone else the challenge of integrating De Gea...

Therefore I don't think the likes of Obertan and Bebe should be held against SAF - I doubt he regrets signing them or gives much of a stuff. They were shot-to-nothing style punts, nothing more, and he's definitely got nearly all the important signings right the last 5-6 years - United's recent record is very, very good indeed imo.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
Yeah, they're very strange omissions, seeing as they really stand out as the two biggest blots on Fergie's record in the transfer market (for very different reasons)



Precious? No need to get so defensive. Just think that Fergie's record in the transfer market is as good, if not better, than any other manager I can think of. Which is not the impression you'd get reading posts like the one from you and Plech.
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I somehow forgot Veron, but left Hargreaves off because some people here will argue he was a good signing, and I can't be arsed arguing about it for the 1,511th time.

As good as I think is fair, but I wouldn't say Fergie's noticably better than any other manager at transfers, which is kind of the point I was making. No way of knowing what the likes of Wenger or Moyes would be like if they had more resources and the lure of being able to offer players the chance to play for United. Mourinho's got a comparative record much as I think he's an odius anti-football cnut.

Wasn't really directing the precious comment at you Pogue. The angry responses I always get in here these days are funny though. I even get shouted at for giving players slightly too lower numbers in the match ratings these days, and occasionally get told off by PM.
 
Jill Phones.
 
noodlehair said:
I somehow forgot Veron, but left Hargreaves off because some people here will argue he was a good signing, and I can't be arsed arguing about it for the 1,511th time.

As good as I think is fair, but I wouldn't say Fergie's noticably better than any other manager at transfers, which is kind of the point I was making. No way of knowing what the likes of Wenger or Moyes would be like if they had more resources and the lure of being able to offer players the chance to play for United. Mourinho's got a comparative record much as I think he's an odius anti-football cnut.

Wasn't really directing the precious comment at you Pogue. The angry responses I always get in here these days are funny though. I even get shouted at for giving players slightly too lower numbers in the match ratings these days, and occasionally get told off by PM.
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:lol: Jaysus, really?

Speaking as someone who spends most of my time on here shouting at or telling off people, even I would say that's taking things a bit far.

On the whole transfer thing I agree it's difficult to compare like with like, considering the very different resources and timeframes involved. I think his record is far better than Mourinho's fwiw, whose record of spending an absolute fecking fortune on flops makes the Hargreaves/Veron signings seem like relatively good business.
 
That's where I think assuming a manager's transfer activities is all his own work falls down - assuming you mean Shevchenko you can't really hold him against JM can you? I thought he had him and Ballack thrust on him by Roman?

I reckon Maureen made some surprisingly good buys for Chelsea actually - the fact that the core of his team is STILL there is testament to that surely... Same goes for Inter too.
 
BaldwinLegend said:
That's where I think assuming a manager's transfer activities is all his own work falls down - assuming you mean Shevchenko you can't really hold him against JM can you? I thought he had him and Ballack thrust on him by Roman?

I reckon Maureen made some surprisingly good buys for Chelsea actually - the fact that the core of his team is STILL there is testament to that surely... Same goes for Inter too.
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The core of the successful Chelsea side of recent years were almost all there before he took over.

Ranieri signings
Glen Johnson
Wayne Bridge
Frank Lampard
Damien Duff
Joe Cole
Geremi
Juan Veron
Arjen Robben
Claude Makelele
Adrian Mutu
Hernan Crespo
Petr Cech

Mourinho signings
Paulo Fereira
Ricardo Carvalho
Assier Del Horno
Tiago
Michael Essien
Lassana Diarra
Shaun Wright-Phillips
Didier Drogba
Mateja Kezman
Aug Juliano Belletti
Florent Malouda
Tal Ben Haim
Claudio Pizarro
June Steve Sidwell
Ashley Cole
Khalid Boulahrouz
John Mikel Obi
Ben Sahar Hapoel Tev Aviv
Andrei Shevchenko
Salomon Kalou
Michael Ballack


So basically Malouda, Cole, Carvalho, Drogba and Essien are the only real success stories out of that lot. Drogba and Essien were already big names, cost an absolute fortune and were being actively sought by most major clubs. Cole and Malouda would be not far off that kind of status while Carvalho followed him from his previous club and cost almost £20m; so isn't really testament to his eye for a transfer.

There's a whole lot of dross on that list too, signed at considerable expense. Puts Djemba-Djemba, Klberson, Bellion and Miller into perspective.

As you said, it's impossible to unpick where the role of the scouts end and the manager begins but Mourinho doesn't come close to Fergie's record of picking up youngsters or players from just below the top tier and making them into world-beaters.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
The core of the successful Chelsea side of recent years were almost all there before he took over.

Ranieri signings
Glen Johnson
Wayne Bridge
Frank Lampard
Damien Duff
Joe Cole
Geremi
Juan Veron
Arjen Robben
Claude Makelele
Adrian Mutu
Hernan Crespo
Petr Cech

Mourinho signings
Paulo Fereira
Ricardo Carvalho
Assier Del Horno
Tiago
Michael Essien
Lassana Diarra
Shaun Wright-Phillips
Didier Drogba
Mateja Kezman

So basically Carvalho, Drogba and Essien are the only real success stories out of that lot. Drogba and Essien were already big names, cost an absolute fortune and were being actively sought by most major clubs. Carvalho followed him from his previous club, so isn't really testament to his eye for a transfer.

As you said, it's impossible to unpick where the role of the scouts end and the manager begins but Mourinho doesn't come close to Fergie's record of picking up youngsters or players from just below the top tier and making them into world-beaters.
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Add Ashley Cole to the Mourinho list.
 
Mourinho's signings.

2007

Aug Juliano Belletti Barcelona £3.7m
July Florent Malouda Lyon £13.5m
June Tal Ben Haim Bolton Free
June Claudio Pizarro Bayern Munich Free
June Steve Sidwell Reading Free

2006

Aug Ashley Cole Arsenal £5m
Aug Khalid Boulahrouz Hamburg £7m
June John Mikel Obi Lyn £16m
May Ben Sahar Hapoel Tev Aviv £320,000
May Andrei Shevchenko AC Milan £30.8m
May Salomon Kalou Feyenoord £8m
May Michael Ballack Bayern Munich Free

2005

Aug Michael Essien Lyon £24.4m
July Shaun Wright-Phillips Manchester City £21m
July Lassana Diarra Le Havre £1m
July Scott Sinclair Bristol Rovers £160,000
June Asier Del Horno Athletic Bilbao £8m
Jan Jiri Jarosik CSKA Moscow £4.83m
July Ricardo Carvalho Porto £19.85m
July Didier Drogba Marseille £24m
July Tiago Benfica £8m
July Mateja Kezman PSV Eindhoven £5m
July Paulo Ferreira Porto £13.2m
 
Ah I see, it is a pretty impressive list, but he was given a blank chequebook. Plus you're right, the spine of the team was already there - Terry, Lampard, Cech.
 
pogue mahone said:
ranieri signings
glen johnson- flop
wayne bridge- flop
frank lampard hit
damien duff hit
joe cole hit
geremi flop
juan veron flop
arjen robben hit
claude makelele hit
adrian mutu flop
hernan crespo average
petr cech hit

mourinho signings
paulo fereira average
ricardo carvalho hit
assier del horno flop
tiago flop
michael essien hit
lassana diarra flop
shaun wright-phillips flop
didier drogbahit
mateja kezman flop
juliano belletti flop
florent maloudahit
tal ben haim flop
claudio pizarro flop
steve sidwell flop
ashley cole hit
khalid boulahrouz flop
john mikel obi average
ben sahar hapoel flop
andrei shevchenko flop
salomon kalou hit
michael ballack average
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imo
 
Pogue Mahone said:
Actually, the point I was making is that the one person who did draw the comparison is the only person on here qualified to have an opinion on the matter.

He was very clear that it was just a gut feeling, though, and stressed that Jones should only be judged on his own merits. Nothing wrong with saying that IMO. My bemusement was more aimed at those who seem to be experts on exactly the type of player that Edwards was - and the role he played in his team - despite not once seeing him play. If Tom Clare is reminded of Duncan Edwards when he watches Jones play, that's good enough for me.
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A strange logic to your bemusement Pogue, surely by that reasoning any researcher of Utd's history would be unqualified to give an objective opinion on anything they did not witness with their own eyes.

Surely it is the source of knowledge from which the opinion is based that should be of importance. If someone bases their opinion on the combined opinions and assessments of numerous others who have actually lived through those events, is that still an unqualified claim?

Because your faith in Tom Clares single opinion seems to be sufficient for you to base yours upon. I would happily take on board anything Tom says in regards to Utd's history at that time as i respect his knowledge, and the quality of his posts, but surely the opinions of others like Sir Bobby Charlton saying Edwards was the best ever should also be given due consideration.

I read and listen to opinions every day on here and in the media from people who have witnessed the same events as myself only a couple of hours before, who have a completely different view than other experts.

My point being one opinion however respectable the opiner, should never be considered more valid than any other, only by compiling a generalised concensus from a variety of opinions can someone form a reasonable measure of the truth.
 
apotheosis said:
A strange logic to your bemusement Pogue, surely by that reasoning any researcher of Utd's history would be unqualified to give an objective opinion on anything they did not witness with their own eyes.

Surely it is the source of knowledge from which the opinion is based that should be of importance. If someone bases their opinion on the combined opinions and assessments of numerous others who have actually lived through those events, is that still an unqualified claim?

Because your faith in Tom Clares single opinion seems to be sufficient for you to base yours upon. I would happily take on board anything Tom says in regards to Utd's history at that time as i respect his knowledge, and the quality of his posts, but surely the opinions of others like Sir Bobby Charlton saying Edwards was the best ever should also be given due consideration.

I read and listen to opinions every day on here and in the media from people who have witnessed the same events as myself only a couple of hours before, who have a completely different view than other experts.

My point being one opinion however respectable the opiner, should never be considered more valid than any other, only by compiling a generalised concensus from a variety of opinions can someone form a reasonable measure of the truth.
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Sorry for dipping in and not addressing the substance of your post but where Sir Bobby is concerned I think you always have to view his opinions on Edwards as being coloured by his untimely death at such a young age. That's not to say he isn't entirely correct - I don't know one way or the other - but the emotion he speaks about him with means it might not be the most objective assessment of a player that you'll find. There are a lot of other people who have given opinions on him that were similar and who didn't have the emotional history with him that Sir Bobby did, so it does lend credence to the idea that he was that good.
 
For what it's worth (it's not worth anything but I'm going to say it anyway), my first thought on getting a proper look at Jones in action was, "He's like how my dad described Duncan Edwards."

noodlehair said:
It's not hard. If you're a side who's competing to win the league and European Cup, finishing 3rd and not getting close to the team who finished 1st, whilst being knocked out of Europe early doors, is a bit shite. As is signing the likes of Djemba Djemba and Liam Miller to try and replace Roy Keane.

I doubt Fergie's view would be all that different to be honest, which is what makes him such a good manager. More so than being an unheralded transfer muppet genius at any rate.

Here are some players who Ferguson has signed since 2000:
Ben Foster
Liam Miller
Djemba-Djemba
Kleberson
Bellion
Tosic
Bebe
Obertan
Mark Bosnic
Massimo Tiabe
Ricardo
Laurent Blanc (to replace Jap Stam!)

On the other hand there's been:
Hernandez
Valencia
Vidic
Evra
Rooney
Ronaldo
Smalling
Rafael
Fabio
Nani
VDS
Park

Plus loads I've left out because people would debate one way or the other. It's a decent record but no less hit and miss than with some other managers. It's other things that set Fergie apart. Mainly his ability to manage and turn players into a team of winners in such a high pressure environment.
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Is the right answer
 
Brophs said:
Sorry for dipping in and not addressing the substance of your post but where Sir Bobby is concerned I think you always have to view his opinions on Edwards as being coloured by his untimely death at such a young age. That's not to say he isn't entirely correct - I don't know one way or the other - but the emotion he speaks about him with means it might not be the most objective assessment of a player that you'll find. There are a lot of other people who have given opinions on him that were similar and who didn't have the emotional history with him that Sir Bobby did, so it does lend credence to the idea that he was that good.
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Not at all Brophs, and you raise a perfectly valid point. But really it only cements my own view that you cannot take only one assessment, however well respected, and use it as a basis for determining general concensus.
 
gooDevil said:
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Hadn't seen that before, was a good watch.

Leaving the obvious Bobby Charlton and Duncan Edwards praise aside, I was very impressed with Johnny Berry in that match. He looked a proper talent it has to be said, beat his man over and over again, lots of pace and good, quick short passing. Tommy Taylor, Roger Byrne and Eddie Colman all looked good also. It's a shame they never got to reach their collective potential together.
 
apotheosis said:
Not at all Brophs, and you raise a perfectly valid point. But really it only cements my own view that you cannot take only one assessment, however well respected, and use it as a basis for determining general concensus.
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Well no but neither should you tell someone who watched both Jones and Edwards play and noticed a certain similarity that actually no, there can't be any similarity because you've read books/blogs which described Edwards as x, y and z.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
Bought for £1m, sold for £6m. Hardly a "dire" buy. Not cut out for United but a decent bit of business all the same.
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True, but we don't buy players to make a profit though I was more against the point that vds was the only reason he didn't make it at United.
 
He's been superb so far this season, my only worry is with him and Smalling looking great at RB how are we going to get the twins enough games.

I'm actually looking forward to seeing Fergie deploy Jones as a DM.
 
I keep changing my mind about which of our young players I'm most excited about, which speaks volumes.

Last season I thought we had it well with Hernandez, Rafael, Fabio and Smalling all being excellent prospects. Now add in Welbeck, Cleverley and Jones and you can see the potential the future holds.

I honestly believe any of the above players I've mentioned could go on to be genuinely world class, and most of them will easily be top bracket players. It really is an exciting time to be a United fan.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
Well no but neither should you tell someone who watched both Jones and Edwards play and noticed a certain similarity that actually no, there can't be any similarity because you've read books/blogs which described Edwards as x, y and z.
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See this is often the trouble really Pogue, i was completely unaware Tom Clare had originally offered the view that Jones reminded him of Edwards, up until reading your post.

Personally i was simply sharing my understanding of what Edwards was like in response to Goodevil's question. It was never my intention to come across as an expert on Edwards, or to undermine Tom's views in any way. I respect first hand experience more than any blogs or books written after the fact, and admittedly my knowledge on the subject is mainly based on the opinions of my Grandad and others of similar age.
 
Devil may care said:
He's been superb so far this season, my only worry is with him and Smalling looking great at RB how are we going to get the twins enough games.

I'm actually looking forward to seeing Fergie deploy Jones as a DM.
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By playing Smalling and Jones in their natural positions and only occassionally shifting them to the right when twins cannot play?
 
Edwards was well known to be the most completed footballer ever as described by Charlton - strong, balance, good at passing, tackling, charging forward, play with authority, brave, high level of stamina, good heading and long range shooting etc. - he had it all. I think Jones could have possessed some similarities, more than any other players we have seen before. But fact is most of us here would have no idea how Edwards actually played, so its all down to our own imagination for any comparison.
 
Reminds me a bit of the legend of Babe Ruth. He was the best pitcher and the best hitter in the league at the time. We'll never see that again in baseball, so any comparison sounds ridiculous no matter how good they are.
 
When he can make those kind of runs from defense, i dont see why we need to try him in midfield. Those runs he makes are much more dangerous when made from defense.
 
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