Evra accuses Suarez of racist remarks | Suarez guilty of racial abuse

Instant Karma said:
1. SAF's comments on the incident - "Evra is adamant to pursue it with the FA...." or something like that before he quickly started praising the supporters. He seemed to be distancing himself and the club from the incident. Surely, he would have backed his captain and condemned Suarez if he believed in Evra as much as some of you do ? Would Fergie shy away from publicly standing by his player and condemning an alleged despicable act ?
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Those are some amazing leaps and assumptions you've made there.

Maybe the club is just classy enough to not jump into this until the evidence is gone over. Maybe he realizes if this turns into a club vs club thing it could lead to worsening of relations and even violence. Unlike, say.....Liverpool, a club that has chosen the opposite and shockingly stupid approach.
 
I'd be very surprised if anything actually came out of it tbh. The ref has already distanced himself from the incident saying he didnt hear it. neither of our players have said they did. TV replays will never be used as evidence unless it was picked up on a mic which it wasnt.

It'l just be evra's word vs suarez's which will be a dead heat and the matter will be closed for lack of evidence.

Its a pity though. a casual tug of the shirt or normal banter would not have had evra in the sort of rage that he was. he completely lost it for a while, takes a lot to get that sort of a response from such an experienced pro. I do believe it happened but there's no way it can be proved.

Ohh and ofcourse, suarez is a fecking cnut. despicable man. i hardly ever hate a player. tevez terry and busquets the only 3 i guess. suarez is doing well in that race.
 
AlwaysRedwood said:
Those are some amazing leaps and assumptions you've made there.

Maybe the club is just classy enough to not jump into this until the evidence is gone over. Maybe he realizes if this turns into a club vs club thing it could lead to worsening of relations and even violence. Unlike, say.....Liverpool, a club that has chosen the opposite and shockingly stupid approach.
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His points 2 and 3 are pretty redundant too.

2. There's loads of footage of Suarez' lips flapping. Whether or not anything conclusive can be interpreted from this footage remains to be seen and it's impossible to rule it out completely. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

3. As for "nobody else hearing it", it's not exactly difficult for one footballer to make repeated comments to another without anyone else hearing it.
 
Agree with the above points made in response to that poster. So many assumptions based on nothing.

'Someone would have heard'. How does that work out then? In a noisy stadium hosting one of the worlds biggest football matches, it would extremely easy to say things to the chap whose marking you that wouldnt be audible to others.

Also id like to add that this is one case where one should be a lot more wary backing the accused rather than the accuser, so strongly. While that might sound like a biased statement, I don't think it is. When there are claims of rape you generally should think a thousand times before accusing someone who has possible been through the trauma related to it, of making a false claim unless your certain of it being the case.

Which is why I'm extremely baffled by Liverpool stance. I think its a disgraceful stance to take to be honest by a football club. Unless they have evidence to support their opinion, they could well be patting racism on it's back. So yeah, well done Liverpool fc.
 
amolbhatia100 said:
Agree with the above points made in response to that poster. So many assumptions based on nothing.

'Someone would have heard'. How does that work out then? In a noisy stadium hosting one of the worlds biggest football matches, it would extremely easy to say things to the chap whose marking you that wouldnt be audible to others.

Also id like to add that this is one case where one should be a lot more wary backing the accused rather than the accuser, so strongly. While that might sound like a biased statement, I don't think it is. When there are claims of rape you generally should think a thousand times before accusing someone who has possible been through the trauma related to it, of making a false claim unless your certain of it being the case.

Which is why I'm extremely baffled by Liverpool stance. I think its a disgraceful stance to take to be honest by a football club. Unless they have evidence to support their opinion, they could well be patting racism on it's back. So yeah, well done Liverpool fc.
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To add on to that, the way he played that innocence card was atrocious. If Suarez said those remarks, at that point, any consideration of his reputation being tarnished should be forfeited.

I just get the impression, he's like the lone ranger trying to fend off all the bad guys and we're all the bad guys he's having to disagree. What's also weird is that he will agree on some points then delve into something that makes it seem as if he's actually disagreeing. Interesting.
 
Edmeiste said:
To add on to that, the way he played that innocence card was atrocious. If Suarez said those remarks, at that point, any consideration of his reputation being tarnished should be forfeited.

I just get the impression, he's like the lone ranger trying to fend off all the bad guys and we're all the bad guys he's having to disagree. What's also weird is that he will agree on some points then delve into something that makes it seem as if he's actually disagreeing. Interesting.
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compared to Redman's stance which was basically that Evra was making it up? that was even worse
 
You're all talking absolute arse. Take off the red-tinted spectacles for a second.

I agree, if Suarez did this, then he is a vile, despicable cnut and should be banned for a long time. However, there is no proof. What are Liverpool suppose to do as a football club? Say "Oh right, must be a racist then!" and feck him out of the club? Not get involved when one of your most expensive and most important players is under fire in a very public forum? Like feck.

If this was the real world, Suarez would have no problem taking Evra to court for slander. It may be unfair, but without an iota of proof, anyone or anything to back up his argument - Evra stands very much in the wrong at the moment.

Having said that, personally I think it's fairly obvious that Suarez was making racist comments, but nothing can be done without proof.
 
It's not possible to debate this issue sensibly unless we disregard all club loyalties.

In this thread, we have United fans assuming Evra is telling the truth and Liverpool fans assuming Suarez is telling the truth. There is no evidence for either of these stances, just blind partisanship.

Other unsavoury aspects of Suarez's character (diving, biting, WC penalty antics) make him no more likely to be a racist. That's a huge charge. I'm not sure people should be going with the 'he's a dick, so he probably said it' attitude. There's a big leap between being a bit of a prat and being a racist.

At the same time, I don't understand Liverpool trying to discredit Evra on the basis that he's been involved in race issues before. That matters not a jot. It is conceivable that a person could be subjected to racial taunts more than once in his life.

If we're being objective and balanced here, we'll say that we HAVE to wait for proof. Absence of proof does not mean that Evra has lied. This comes down to one man's word against another, and in the absence of concrete proof, all else is bollocks and conjecture.

Basically, unless there's proof, this is a pointless and redundant debate.
 
Some disgusting reactions to this. That Kristian Walsh guy should lose his job, whatever the feck he does for LFC. No surprise to see he's one of those Rafa worshipping cult members - what is it with some Liverpool fans being unmitigated retards across the board.

The reaction of nearly every single one (certainly the influential ones online anyway) has been to slander Evra by making up lies about his past and discuss what should happen to him when the allegations aren't 100% proved (which they gleefully realise will be very difficult to do).

In reality what we have is a player who has not once 'played the race card' despite the fictitious claims of Liverpool fans. Something was said to him by Suarez, and there is video evidence of that, but with 40,000 screaming fans and difficulties with lip reading (you can say n****r and other variants without being lip read), it's basically Evra's word against Suarez. I don't know what was said to Evra but I've rarely seen him that wound up and distressed on a football pitch without any clear reason to be so - at the time I thought his booking was stupid and I criticised him for it.

And now we get back to the bigger problem. Chris Kamara said he was racially abused by opponents on numerous occasions but never reported it because it would ultimately come down to his word against theirs. Now Evra feels he's been wronged, he's not the type to ignore it and if his grievances are genuine I hope he doesn't let himself get bullied and slandered into letting it lie. Because for every Evra there'll be 1000 more minority players who just won't bother. Though hopefully they won't have to deal with the boneheaded maliciousness of Liverpool fans and writers.
 
Don't know if this has been mentioned before but this morning (Tuesday) Darren Lewis on SSN paper review said that it is erroneously believed that Evra has made previous accusation; that he hasn't; that this is the first time he's made such an accusation.
 
Reapersoul20 said:
Evra stands very much in the wrong at the moment.
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What was Evra supposed to do in such a situation?

He made the claims immediately after the game and had hoped a camera or a microphone had picked up something.

All assuming the allegations are true of course.
 
Whilst it's a shame that everyone is presuming guilt on Suarez' part, it's more of a shame that people genuinely believe that Evra should be held accountable if the evidence is not there.

Whilst maybe Evra would have been better off reporting the racism in a private manner, so that evidence could be reviewed and considered, it's a sad, sad day when people are actively encouraged NOT to raise racist abuse for fear of being punished based on a lack of proof.
 
Why has Suarez not come out with any version of what he was actually saying to Evra all those times? If he was winding Evra up in a non-racist way then fine, it is part of the game to do what you can within the letter of the law to put your opponents off their game.
 
Reapersoul20 said:
If this was the real world, Suarez would have no problem taking Evra to court for slander. It may be unfair, but without an iota of proof, anyone or anything to back up his argument - Evra stands very much in the wrong at the moment.
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That's absolute bollocks - what was Evra meant to do, check with the Sky production team first before making the allegations?

It either happened or it didn't. Whether there is conclusive evidence or not is something to be considered after the complaint was made.
 
It's not Ferguson's place to condemn anyone based on his own players complaints. What good would that serve? Evra was the one it allegedly happened to, so let him deal with the situation.

If noone else heard it, or cameras didnt pick it up, Its a wild conclusion to jump to Evra lying. This just means absence proof, not absence of truth.
 
Tbf, the Evra lying thing has only been an issue in this because of the actions from LFC. It should be a more simple, yet no less serious, debate involving proving whether or not Suarez can be proved to have said something.
 
Instant Karma said:
1. SAF's comments on the incident - "Evra is adamant to pursue it with the FA...." or something like that before he quickly started praising the supporters. He seemed to be distancing himself and the club from the incident. Surely, he would have backed his captain and condemned Suarez if he believed in Evra as much as some of you do ? Would Fergie shy away from publicly standing by his player and condemning an alleged despicable act ?

2. The racist abuse allegedly happened 10 times but there is no video footage of it

3. The racist abuse allegedly happened 10 times but no one else heard it
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It's not Ferguson's place to condemn anyone based on his own players complaints. What good would that serve? Evra was the one it allegedly happened to, so let him deal with the situation.

If noone else heard it, or cameras didnt pick it up, Its a wild conclusion to jump to Evra lying. This just means absence of proof, not absence of truth.
 
The Boss also said to the press:

'It doesn't happen in England. There are very few examples of that. Since I have come down we have had some fantastic players at Manchester United who have been black, fantastic players. It is not an issue for the game itself but there is an odd example. Maybe this is what surprised Patrice Evra. He thought he was slighted on Saturday. We don't want to see it. It is as simple as that.'--Sir Alex Ferguson
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To those who have tried to imply that Sir Alex isn't backing Evra I'd say the words 'we dont want to see it. It is as simple as that' are evidence to the contary.
 
Sultan said:
What was Evra supposed to do in such a situation?

He made the claims immediately after the game and had hoped a camera or a microphone had picked up something.

All assuming the allegations are true of course.
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I don’t think going public with French TV on the alligations was the best move to be honest, probably could have been handeled better. Either say nothing and let the FA deal with it or let the clubs spin doctors realease a carefully worded statement. But then Iif its true and he was that upset/worked up about its probably undertandable it came out in an interview.
 
el eric said:
I don’t think going public with French TV on the alligations was the best move to be honest, probably could have been handeled better. Either say nothing and let the FA deal with it or let the clubs spin doctors realease a carefully worded statement. But then Iif its true and he was that upset/worked up about its probably undertandable it came out in an interview.
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Yeah, agreed. That was a silly thing to do. Although it was obviously an interview done fairly soon after the game, when emotions were still running high. Definitely an error of judgement though.
 
711 said:
What about for any other player who is wrongly accused of racial abuse in a future match? What would they do then?
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You've not thought this through to its conclusion have you?

Player may or may not have been racially abused - nothing can be proven - nothing happens.

Player may or may not have been wrongly accused - nothing can be proven - nothing happens.

But you want the second scenario to differ so that the accuser is punished? Yeah, let's weight the system in favour of racists.
 
Fred the bin dipper said:
if someone accused you of being racist in the papers and on the telly, and you hadn't done anything, what would you do? nothing?
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True, but this doesn't tell us much...

If someone accused you of being racist in the papers and on the telly, and you had done it, what would you do?

Much the same as if you hadn't - deny everything. Unless you want to screw your own career.

Can you conceive of a worse outcome to all this than if Suarez did do it, and Evra ends up being punished? There's an easy way to rule out that worse case scenario, and that is to stop all this nonsense about punishing the accuser.
 
Instant Karma said:
1. SAF's comments on the incident - "Evra is adamant to pursue it with the FA...." or something like that before he quickly started praising the supporters. He seemed to be distancing himself and the club from the incident. Surely, he would have backed his captain and condemned Suarez if he believed in Evra as much as some of you do ? Would Fergie shy away from publicly standing by his player and condemning an alleged despicable act ?

2. The racist abuse allegedly happened 10 times but there is no video footage of it

3. The racist abuse allegedly happened 10 times but no one else heard it
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1)It's not Sir Alex's fight is it? I think the club have backed Evra by not discouraging it....that said anything Sir Alex could have said would prove absolutely nothing.

2)It's questionable that it happened 10 times. Do people count? The fact there's no video footage don't mean much. There's no Patrice Evra cam which sits on his shirt and films people directly in front of to the side of him. Besides, Suarez's teeth would get in the way of most video evidence.

3) People would have to be in the vicinity to hear it. With the crowd noise etc, it's not that surprising...
 
Striker10 said:
1)It's not Sir Alex's fight is it? I think the club have backed Evra by not discouraging it....that said anything Sir Alex could have said would prove absolutely nothing.

2)It's questionable that it happened 10 times. Do people count? The fact there's no video footage don't mean much. There's no Patrice Evra cam which sits on his shirt and films people directly in front of to the side of him. Besides, Suarez's teeth would get in the way of most video evidence.

3) People would have to be in the vicinity to hear it. With the crowd noise etc, it's not that surprising...
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I would happily buy a sky subscription if this was included.
 
Sir A1ex said:
Or even categorically denying that he used the n word, rather than spouting all that weird crap about taking the field of play with a child's mind or whatever it was...
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sadly a child's mind may well come up with that kind of shit

which means he hardly denied anything so far
 
Nani Nana said:
sadly a child's mind may well come up with that kind of shit

which means he hardly denied anything so far
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That's actually not far from how I see it...

"We are all the same. I go to the field with the maximum illusion of a little child who enjoys what he does, not to create conflicts."

To me this says:

I don't know if it was caught on camera, so I can't make an outright denial in case I am exposed as a total liar.

Instead my excuse is that anything I did say in the heat of the moment wasn't premeditated, it's just that I'm a little bit childish and simple, and may sometimes say things I shouldn't.
 
Sir A1ex said:
That's actually not far from how I see it...

"We are all the same. I go to the field with the maximum illusion of a little child who enjoys what he does, not to create conflicts."

To me this says:

I don't know if it was caught on camera, so I can't make an outright denial in case I am exposed as a total liar.

Instead my excuse is that anything I did say in the heat of the moment wasn't premeditated, it's just that I'm a little bit childish and simple, and may sometimes say things I shouldn't.
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Well Suarez makes the typical Spanish to English mistake of translating ilusión into illusion though their meanings are completely different.

ilusión means excitement, thrill. I don't know how being excited like a little child prevents you from provoking your opponent and using curse words
 
Nani Nana said:
Well Suarez makes the typical Spanish to English mistake of translating ilusión into illusion though their meanings are completely different.

ilusión means excitement, thrill. I don't know how being excited like a little child prevents you from provoking your opponent and using curse words
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To be fair, I'm guessing he said it in Spanish, and somebody translated wrong, but still, the gist of the statement doesn't change much...

"I was excited like a child, I didn't intend to start trouble".

So fecking what, pal, did you racially abuse him or not?
 
Yeah either way it's completely irrelevant
 
For a set of supporters that love to play victim and constantly beet on about "the lying press", Liverpool fans seem fairly comfortable spreading lies and mistruths when it suits their purpose.

Bunch of hypocritical wankers.
 
I'm surprised Suarez said anything public at all to be honest. You'd have assumed that Liverpool's solicitors first instructions to him would have been "don't say a bloody word!".

However, I think people are overanalysing what he DID say a bit.
 
It's not a question of whether or not it happened but whether or not you can prove it did happen.

When it boils down to one mans word against another it becomes essentially a comparison between two peoples personalities and their track record - however this is not evidence nor should it be used to convict someone.

Could the dispute be lost in translation?
 
Commadus said:
It's not a question of whether or not it happened but whether or not you can prove it did happen.

When it boils down to one mans word against another it becomes essentially a comparison between two peoples personalities and their track record - however this is not evidence nor should it be used to convict someone.

Could the dispute be lost in translation?
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To me in the gif thats been posted and reposted it seems as though he called Evra a "Negro" but then can I be sure? No. Your mouth makes the same sort of shape when you say the word "Bueno" and a host of other words in Spanish. Ultimately short of someone else coming forward to say I heard X and corroborating either Evra's or Suarez's version of events there's no way to prove Suarez said anything specifically racist only that his body language indicated whatever was said was not complimentary. But as numerous other posters have said just cos you can't prove it beyond reasonable doubt doesn't mean it didn't happen it just means the charge won't stick.
 
Ole's_toe_poke said:
For a set of supporters that love to play victim and constantly beet on about "the lying press", Liverpool fans seem fairly comfortable spreading lies and mistruths when it suits their purpose.

Bunch of hypocritical wankers.
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I really don't see how any side (ours or theirs) can claim the high road on this one.
 
In spanish speaking countries, the equivalent of 'the n word' is just 'negro', right?

Odd that you can say 'black' or 'negro' in English and it's not slander. Not that anyone says negro [in English] anymore in the states.
 
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