What's the difference then?
Berbatov | Fulham player
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik (@Rood) is joined by CEO Duncan Drasdo and Financial Director Andy Green from the Manchester United Supporters Trust for a special episode on all things behind the scenes at Old Trafford including a brief history of MUST and their aims today, views on INEOS and Sir Jim Ratcliffe so far, and the Old Trafford regeneration.
What's the difference then?
As previously stated, actions speak louder than words.
He gave a lot more effort in those two different teams, and played a hell of a lot better in them as well imo. Maybe that was because he was the main man there, I don't know. I was completely in awe of him at Spurs.
How have his actions showed that he is, in fact, not happy to stay and fight for his place?
Now that is a pile of steaming shite. He's always had that languid, arguably lazy style throughout his career. If anything he puts more effort in to appease those that criticise him at United than he ever did at Spurs, where he was idolised.
I never said he wasn't happy to stay, quite the opposite. But when he has been given the chance to prove his worth, I haven't seen much fighting spirit from him.
I remember seeing him busting a gut to get into the box to finish off a move he started plenty of times in a Spurs shirt. I think I've seen it once or twice during his United career, these instances in the first half of last season ,where he was in his element at United.
How can you tell?
Berbatov: ‘Great quality doesn’t require much effort’ - Dirty Tackle - World Soccer Blog - Yahoo! Sports
Q: Some people look at their style and reach conclusions, other people look at your style and reach conclusions and say you don't care enough. Does that bother you?
A: Yes. You are not going to see me puffing around the pitch. There is a saying in Bulgaria that great quality doesn't require much effort.
Q: That drive is still there in your mind? People don't associate you with fierce determination.
A: I am a very proud person. I don't like to show my weaknesses in public. I don't want to show my emotions in public. That is why people probably sometimes misjudge me. But that is ok.
Q: It is misjudgement of your character?
A: Yes.
Q: Some people look at their style and reach conclusions, other people look at your style and reach conclusions and say you don't care enough. Does that bother you?
A: Yes. You are not going to see me puffing around the pitch. There is a saying in Bulgaria that great quality doesn't require much effort.
Q: That drive is still there in your mind? People don't associate you with fierce determination.
A: I am a very proud person. I don't like to show my weaknesses in public. I don't want to show my emotions in public. That is why people probably sometimes misjudge me. But that is ok.
Q: It is misjudgement of your character?
A: Yes.
I use my eyes.
They don't appear to work very well.
You disagree with my opinion, that's fair enough, what you need to do now is state what you disagree with and your own opinion on the matter. Do you know how a discussion works?
It should be quite obvious to you that I disagree with pretty much everything you have to say on the subject. The highlight being that you are of the opinion that Berbatov worked harder when he was at Spurs. Laughable.
Feel free to throw out more tired cliches. "No fighting spirit, doesn't play for the shirt, doesn't bust a gut, never works his socks off", etc, etc.
I'm not looking for him to work his socks off every game. Just to show some fight, and to show that he wants that starting place up front when he gets his chance. I've never been his biggest fan, because of his 'style'. You look at all the playwers in that united squad and they all work their asses off when they get the chance to wear the shirt, because they appreciate what it means to get the chance to wear it. I've never gotten that vibe from Berbatov, regardless of what he says. I don't tend to pay much attention to what player's say in the media, it all comes down to what they do on the pitch, and that's what I form an opinion on.
At Spurs and BL, he excelled in that top man position, and I feel like he changed his 'style' when he came to United. Maybe that was a coaching decision, either way, I don't think he is cut out for United.
Who do you replace him with, though? No one is going to walk into the team, so they're going to have to spend time on the bench. Is that an attractive proposition to any potential transfer target?
I don't like the fact that his is probably getting paid close to £80,000 a week, to play such a small part in the team. I'm not sure we need to bring someone else in, we are completely over stocked in that area. If Berbatov would show some balls when given the chance, I wouldn't blame him for being 4th choice, it would just be a case of having better players in front of him. But he just doesn't seem to give me the impression of someone who is willing to fight for his place. This is the most annoying thing for me.
When he was starting for United, it was due to Rooney being injured/ having shockers (obviously due to personal reasons), or not having quality elsewhere to force for Berbatov out of the team (Welbeck on loan/too young, Hernandez not signed yet). Now that we do have that quality, it is now becomign evident how little we need Berbatov, and how highly SAF currently rates him.
His performances, for me, in a Spurs shirt completely contrast to those in a United one.
Great quality does not require much effort, he is correct. The difference is possessing great quality does not make you a great footballer, far from it. Ronaldo came to United with more talent than Berbatov, but in my opinion he only became a great player once he learnt to work for the team. The same is true of Messi at Barcelona, he'd be warming the bench if he had Berbatov/Ibrahimovic's lazy style.
At any top team in the world if an opposition player with the ball is 5-10 yards away from you (or even more), you are expected to run/sprint at that player and put pressure on him. This is why Barcelona are so formidable, as much as their individual talent.
Maybe one of the main reasons Fergie has dropped Berbatov for so many big games in the last year or 2 is because after seeing Barcelona he recognises the value of this quality in a player, irrespective of talent.
I've said it before, I'd replace him with a talented youngster who would not expect to start immediately, but would have the talent to put pressure on Hernandez/Welbeck/Rooney in a year or 2.
Berbatov is ineffective from the bench anyway and is at an age where that will not change, so you might as well have someone who will be effective in the future, if not massively right now.
You watch a lot of Spurs?
SAF maintains that we need 4 top quality strikers. If we lost Berbatov (the top scorer in the league last year), that leaves us with Rooney, Hernandez, Welbeck and the ever reliable Owen and Diouf. You would be happy with that?
The majority of our player's would be commanding similar wages, squad player or not.
Yes you can highlight his superb hat trick against Liverpool and to a lesser extent the five goals against Blackburn plus a few other moments. But what has that to do with the current situation. Tactics have developed and with Rooney playing behind pacy front runners like Hernandez, Welbeck and Nani, it just doesnt' suit Berba's game. Its not his fault I suppose and certainly not Fergie's as he tries to develop a successful system. I thought Berba might take over from Rooney when the latter wasn't playing, in the role where he could play behind the striker and generally dictate what happens upfront, but when given the opportunity he has been pretty ordinary. Basically he no longer fits in.
Myth.
Nani and Hernandez had equally as much to do with that, in Nani's case I'd say even more so.
I'm sorry, but these constant silly questions are boring me. Of course I watch(ed) Spurs, If I didn't then I wouldn't have commented on Berbatov's perfomances for them.
Did we need 4 top class strikers last season?
Yes I would be happy with aforementioned strikers. I wouldn't forget about Kiko as well. These players, when given the chance, look like they are going out with a point to prove, maybe too much with Kiko (I think he tries to hard to make a noticeable difference).
Remember I have never doubted Berbatov's ability, just the fact that he doesn't look likely to break into the first choice 11 anytime soon judging my his performances this season.
In another thread it was mentioned how simple football is, you pass and move, or as a striker, pass and then move into an advancing position. With Berbatov, you don't get that on a regular enough basis. This is why Cleverley is such a breathe of fresh air for the side, he moves the ball quickly and you never see him stand still. Movement is key.
You're kidding right? You think Hernandez was commanding that when he came into United? I doubt he is even on close to that now. What about other players who are fourth choice in their position?
Then I am sure you won't have a problem elaborating on which performances you were particularly impressed by. Because I think you are full of shit.
The very fact that we bought him for £31m surely intimates that he was far better for Tottenham and put in far better performances consistantly than he has for us?
Did you ever watch Spurs when Berbatov was playing for them? Do you watch football at all? Do you know where you are?
Thank you for confirming what I suspected.
That I'm a dick? I could have told you that. You seem to have taken the same path though. At least I put forward arguements. You reply with silly questions without actually contributing anything to a valid discussion.
Asking whether a United fan watches a lot of Spurs is a silly question? It is absolutely relevant since you are making the retarded argument that Berbatov worked harder there than he does for us. I am also quite certain you logged hours watching Bayer Leverkusen, too.
You are making it up as you go along.
Have you watched the League Cup games this year. I think he's worked his butt off. The Leeds game in particular.
Asking whether a United fan watches a lot of Spurs is a silly question? It is absolutely relevant since you are making the retarded argument that Berbatov worked harder there than he does for us. I am also quite certain you logged hours watching Bayer Leverkusen, too.
You are making it up as you go along.
If you say so.
United fans do watch other teams play, you do realise that? There is a big world of football out there, you should explore it some time. I was a fan of Berbatov prior to Spurs signing him. Although I never thought he would have taken the PL by storm like he did for Spurs. He took control of that team, and took many games by the scruff of the neck for them, with some superb individual performances. He's never looked like leading the United attack like he did at Spurs.
I think at Spurs he felt like he was the main man, so constantly had to pull top drawer performances out of the bag, whereas, at United, he is only one in a bunch of very talented players. It is not a crazy statement to say a player may think to himself that he may not have to give the same effort in the latter situation than the former.
Why would I make all this up? So I look good on an internet forum? You know there are other things to life than that as well, don't you? I watch football, and form an opinion.
Do you watch a lot of Celtic too.
I think his form last season which made him top scorer was essentially the reason we bought him, and he worked no harder last season than he has done in his entire time in England...it's a very British/Irish thing to put any failure down to a lack of effort, which I think is what Berbatov himself has suggested a number of times. We bought him knowing that he wouldn't bust his balls chasing after everything. The problem for me hasn't been that 'lack of effort' it's just the lack of swagger and confidence, which very well could be because he's just one of many big players now. The fact that Rooney was under-perfoming and Berbatov stepped up also fits in with the idea that it was about needing to be the one that the rest of the team looked to, which he didn't get at any other point. Along with that last season was the first season he spent as the furthest forward attacker and it was the first season he ever looked like becoming that player we wanted him to be wasn't a coincidence either, IMO, so there was a tactical/team setup issue there too.
Buttocks
I think the reason he has dropped down in the pecking order is down to his lack of effort (as I mentioned before I think Fergie has realised that you cannot afford even one player to walk around for 90 mins when playing the top teams).
I don't think he was particularly brilliant last year either, I thought he was very inconsistant, looking incredible one week and average the next, although he did contribute excellently in terms of goals when he was playing well.
In terms of whether or not he put more effort in for Tottenham I'm not really sure. Whenever I watched him (maybe only 8-10 times) for Spurs I never noticed his lack of work rate. Whether this was because he worked harder back then or because he was so much better in his other attributes that it masked this flaw I'm not sure.
Do you watch Bayern Munich as well?
Its a username mate(one that I didn't even create), get over it.
Myth?
Why try to undermine Berbatov's form early last season? He was instrumental to us at that point, just as much as Nani was. You can argue he was poor before that, and has faded badly since then, but this time last season he was essential for us.
All I can say is, thank christ for that half a season.
Otherwise our record transfer would go down perhaps as an even worse signing than Veron.
We currently have one of the worlds most expensive and ineffective subs.
No one gives a shit, Randy. You are going the same way as Johnno. He ended up banned over it. Might want to give that some thought.
You have servants to sign you up to forums? Nice.
Why does anyone care at all about how much Berbatov is getting paid per week?
It's not your money, and I can guarantee you that his £80,000 isn't the one thing stopping us from buying a super-midfielder or something.
It's not your money, and I can guarantee you that his £80,000 isn't the one thing stopping us from buying a super-midfielder or something.
Its the same with any money the club spend. You dont want to see cash go to waste
There was uproar when it was rumoured John O'Shea was getting an £80K PW contract (and he started most weeks)
Same with transfer fees. I am still smarting a bit over £7m for Bebe.
But yes I doubt his wages have been the reason why we have not signed a midfielder. But they do seem rather wasteful