We weren't very effective with Chicha either. Lost vs Chelsea nd Arsenal, drew vs Newcastle and Blackburn. Our league results didn't improve after January but we remained the most consistent team and that won us the title.
Berbatov | Fulham player
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We weren't very effective with Chicha either. Lost vs Chelsea nd Arsenal, drew vs Newcastle and Blackburn. Our league results didn't improve after January but we remained the most consistent team and that won us the title.
The same must apply to Berba then if you say overall with berba or chicha the results were pretty much the same.
If overall we were the same with berba or hernandez then as you mention it was the consistency rather than individual brilliance that is most relevant.
The difference being that Rooney was brilliant in the second half of the season. Chicharito had a great first season, too. This is why we were consistent. As rergards our away games, yes, we weren't very successful with Berbatov and this was probably one of the reasons why SAF decided to rely more on Chicha. It didn't improve our results in the league but Chicha and Rooney played very well, at times even brilliantly.
The thing is whats most important is the balance of the team and whether Berba or Hernandez achieves this as its a given that Rooney will be involved no matter what formation and tactics SAF picks.
Hernandez has been up and down this season and needs to pick up if he wants to eclipse last season but the same applies to Berba. There is a lot of football left.
He will get his game time as the season wears on, it's very simple.
It's really not, and I've no idea why you dismissed finneh's post like that. It's pretty bloody damn obvious and "simple" that "it will be his form that dictates his game time."
Not initially it won't, he will be given opportunities as the season wears on.
He can't show form if he's not playing.
He can't show form if he's not playing.
He's getting chances NOW to show form, is he takes these chances he'll be in sooner rather than later.
The way you're talking is as though he's getting zero chance as of now.
I disagree, for the reasons I've already given earlier in the thread.
Of course he's been given chances and will continue to be given chances. He has featured in 10 of our 18 games this season, starting 4 of them. Out of these chances I can probably point to 2 games where I think he made a positive impression, none of which were against Premier League or Champions League opponents.
It's no surprise that after his 2 impressive games this season, he was given a chance at starting a more important match within a week. After his positive performance vs Leeds he was given his chance against Stoke, a game which he was aweful. After the game against Aldershot where he was impressive, he was given his chance in the Champions League, again after his good impression he was aweful.
He is being given the chances whenever he has impressed already, unfortunately he has not taken these chances. If that changes, so will his game time.
It's the latter part of his statement I was disagreeing with, for the reasons I've already given.
You said he can't show form if he's not playing, I illustrated that he is currently getting games and when he impresses he is given a start the following week. The difference is he hasn't taken the chances he's been given, which has led to him not getting more games.
If he was excellent against Stoke or in the Champions League, he would have started more games. I'm pretty sure that is obvious, if you play very poorly you are much less likely to start the following week.
Berbatov's price/reputation has stopped granting him starts without merit, Hernandez/Welbeck have taken advantage.
Have you even read my posts re Welbeck?
And when you are playing regularly, which he hasn't been, like say starting a few matches, that's when you can build on form. The odd start here or there, or coming from the bench isn't the same thing. He's not an impact player, and scattered performances aren't going to be the things that gets him more games. He will get more games in the season when he is played more regularly, which I'm certain he will be, regardless of how he's performing now. He will be given a run of games and that will build on his form and confidence, starting four games in eighteen isn't exactly the ideal way to increase form for any player.
Yes I've read your posts about Welbeck. But I have no idea where you have this information from.
If your theory is correct then after Welbeck was injured during the Arsenal game, Berbatov would be starting the games in his absence, correct? Wrong. Of the next three games Berbatov did not start one and only started for Welbeck's return game vs Leeds.
It could be that your wild theory is just that and my common sense assertion that players not playing well/taking their chances generally do not play as much.
I totally agree that it is difficult to perform when not playing regularly. Unfortunately if you're a 3rd or 4th choice striker demands, you cannot realistically expect a run of 6-7 starts to gain form. I said the same about Gibson last year, if you are 4th choice in a position you have to take chances when you get them.
Berbatov will mature into a top class player in a few years and you'll all be embarrassed.
Without doubt.
Hernandez wasn't starting many either last year and the guy ahead of him in the pecking order was the league's top scorer, but he took his chances, which eventually led to more.
Not necessarily.
As I've already said, I believe we'll see more of Berbatov in the Premier League as the season progresses, especially at the business end of the season.
Cheers for totally ignoring the points that illustrated that your opinion was speculative at best and delusional at worst.
If history tells us anything it's that Berbatov plays less at the business end of the season than at the start, because his form has generally been worse at the business end. Who'd have guessed that form would come into play again though?
Exactly. If you are 3rd or 4th choice there is one thing you can do to force your way into the starting line up: perform well when given the chance. If Hernandez or Welbeck weren't doing this Berbatov would be starting. If Berbatov was doing it, he'd be pushing his way back in.
As I said before it seems like in the last 8-9 months Fergie has decided to play his strikers on form, rather than reputation/cost.
And this is our point, Berbatov is not a Darren Gibson. He's not an unknown quality, we have last season as a constant reminder of what he can do. See it from our perspective. We know that Berbatov is a quality player, we know that we need four top strikers. We've used the early part of the season to blood in Welbeck properly and give him the platform to increase his ability and confidence, and at the same time Berbatov has still been given games, or played a small part in games so he's not completely unused. I believe that it's more important to have Welbeck work through this period, where we can afford to rest a player of Berbatov's quality with Rooney and Hernandez both playing well, the opposite of last season. For me there is no doubt that towards the second half of the season Berbatov will feature heavily for us, as I don't see there being a set second, third or fourth striker. That's our point, he doesn't need to take these chances, he's not expected to replicate the form of last season when he's barely playing, and hardly ever starting. He will get his chances as the season goes on, as Fergie has said, regardless of what is happening now.
Hallelujah.
The difference between Gibson and Berbatov is that Berbatov has a World Class player and two potentially top players who are playing very well above him in the pecking order. Gibson had a few players who are either decent or good but out of form. The situation is identical, but we are just much better up front than CM, so the competition is far higher.
Berbatov is class technically, but he doesn't show it nearly enough to be categorised as a "class" player.
I'd hate to have a discussion with you in real life:
Person A: Puts forward point A with no evidence or info to back it up
Person B: Puts forward point B with evidence that suggests point B is correct
Person A: Reiterates point A again, after suggesting person B hasn't understood or heard the point
Person B: Puts forward more evidence that suggests point B is correct
Person C: Person A could be right
Person A: Hallelujah (whilst ignoring/failing to address any points raised by person B)
So true.
By the way finneh, I completely agree. You can't merit consistent starts in such a competitive team with just your performances of the previous season. Berbatov has been given chances this season to prove to SAF that he should be in the starting lineup but he hasn't taken them, and he hasn't looked like a player with the desire to break back into the team.
As you stated, you can't be allowed 4-6 consecutive games to find a good run of form. What message does that give to the youngsters who are busting their ass in training and performing to a higher level than said player?
Yes times 10
Hectic
Just how much weight do you give to last season? If SAF is being unfair re Berba in regards to last season by not playing him much then by the same coin was he not being ultra supportive of him in his second year after his "lukewarm" first season?
I posted at the start of this season Berba would score no less than 5 goals fewer than Hernandez and I am still happy with that prediction because of Welbeck development and Hernandez early season injuries.
Just how much weight do you give to last season? If SAF is being unfair re Berba in regards to last season by not playing him much then by the same coin was he not being ultra supportive of him in his second year after his "lukewarm" first season?
I posted at the start of this season Berba would score no less than 5 goals fewer than Hernandez and I am still happy with that prediction because of Welbeck development and Hernandez early season injuries.
you cant expect players who get the odd game here and there to give world class performances every time they are picked. Players aren't robots. They may need a game or 2 to get match sharpness, reserve matches do not substitute for game time at first team level.
Some of you lot have funny expectations of players
we should feel lucky that we have a player of Berba's ability waiting to come in
Some of you lot have funny expectations of players
we should feel lucky that we have a player of Berba's ability waiting to come in
yet a game where liverpool almost came back from the dead!
How quickly you can cast away memories like that game and put it down to poor opposition. It was still bloody liverpool and for me, Berba was a complete hero that day
We would all feel lucky if he did perform better. I mentioned on the previous page he should have a good chance over the next 2 months.
There are plenty of cup and winnable home league games
There are plenty of cup and winnable home league games
I guess with Welbeck injured now he should be safe to have a spot on the bench.
Exactly. it seems some people dislike him because of the fact that he doesn't play a lot despite his talent, which baffles me. Surely that's a good thing and shows just how good our team are?
What are you on about gb? my point was, that Liverpool game can't be compared to scoring a CL final winner.
He was a hero that day for me too, but you'd have to be one sad bastard of a United fan to think that deserves a lifetime of worship a la Teddy Sheringham/OGS. In fact, you'd pretty much be a City fan.
So if to someone that performance on that day pretty much put him in iconic status, that means they are City fan? Guess we must all think like Sharky to be a proper United supporter.
Eh? Are you on drugs shimo?
City fans celebrate the likes of Shaun Goater, does beating an out of sorts Liverpool side at OT really mean "that" much to us?
Or, just answer a question that relates to my point: Does scoring a hat-trick against Liverpool at home in the league mean as much as scoring a CL final winner?
Because I promise you this, if Berba had played and scored the winner vs. Barca back in May I'd worship the ground the lad walks on, something I don't really do to players who help us win games against a crap Liverpool side at home in the league. Each to their own though, I'm certainly not saying how a "proper" United supporter should act, it's just my opinion that it'd be a bit fecking sad that's all.
If we hadn't had Berba we would have been out of touch by Christmas . Can't you accept that?
He was quite important after Christmas, too. 8 league goals (Brum away, should have been the winner), 3 against Brum at home, 2 crucial goals vs Blackpool, the winner vs Bolton and the fist goal vs Fulham. Add to that his great cameo vs Wham away. The notion that he performed very well only before Christmas is quite mistaken.
No, because had he not played then Hernandez would've played, it's not like it was Berba or bloody Gary Birtles.
I accept that he was a big part of keeping us in the run up until xmas, along with a few others, I've never even come close to denying that. What I do believe is complete utter bulllshit is this silly notion that he "rescued our season".
We wouldn't have won the title without him, it's a fact. If we would've relied on Hernandez, then we would've surely done worse as his overall game play wasn't that great in the starting and he needed time to settle in the team.
So true.
By the way finneh, I completely agree. You can't merit consistent starts in such a competitive team with just your performances of the previous season. Berbatov has been given chances this season to prove to SAF that he should be in the starting lineup but he hasn't taken them, and he hasn't looked like a player with the desire to break back into the team.
As you stated, you can't be allowed 4-6 consecutive games to find a good run of form. What message does that give to the youngsters who are busting their ass in training and performing to a higher level than said player?
Rooney? Double standards?
Sure it is Rafa
Only a numpty would say otherwise.