Luka Modric / Signs for Real Madrid

If we do get our hands on modric, it is time to go R2D2 and we would line up something like this.

Forward 6 -

------------------------Welbeck------------------------


---Kaggy---------------Rooney---------------Nani--------



------------Modric--------------Carrick-------------------


:drool:

R2D2 would prefer this:

Carrick---------Modric

Valencia------Kagawa-------Nani

Rooney​
 
unfortunately we are not man city and cannot afford to have 3 world class players for every position on the pitch.

Carrick is one of our fittest (ie least injured) players, it would be foolish to buy another player to compete with him for his position and be left with subpar options to play alongside him. Jones may not be a brilliant midfielder, but between him, Anderson, Cleverley, Modric and Scholes they would be more than capable of picking up the 10 games or so where Carrick may be unavailable.

In an ideal world yes, we sign several midfielders and give that entire section of the team an overhaul, but that isn't going to happen and if we are resigned to signing just the one CM this summer then for me, Modric is the standout option (aside from Schweinsteiger but that's not going to happen).

I've never asked that we get a world class player or spend big money, my point has always been that if we sign a midfielder then a player who can come in for carrick and in some games if we want come in alongside him is more of a priority than another attacking midfielder.

You say we can't have that many players for 1 position, yet currently we have Anderson, cleverley, scholes and giggs all competing for 1 spot. Yes there maybe one off games where you could play a combo of them without carrick but personally I think that would be a rare occurance and be more due to
no options than an actual choice. I'm not one of the guys who thinks clev and ando are going to be top class, I need to see more from both to be convinced off that but whilst we still have them and scholes and giggs then I don't see a real need for a creative player. Last year the issue wasn't that they weren't creative but because due to injuries they didn't play and due to fletchers condition we lacked any cover for carrick or any similar player that could come in and make it solid for tougher games. If those two don't step up or can't stay fit then we could look for another creative player but we may as well give them the opportunity.

And it's not about fitness it's about what carrick provides. None of the other midfielders can do what he does, not at a high level. Each one of them needs a player like carrick, someone who will take most of the defensive duties. Not cause their lazy but because between them they either don't have the legs or don't do that role well. Yes in terms of numbers they could cover for him but not in terms of what he does. Look at modric when he plays for spurs he has at least 1 player alongside him taking away most the defensive burden, he helps but Parker bares the brunt of it. There's nothing wrong with that we were exactly the same with keane and scholes. Sometimes they bring in two defensively solid players and push him wider for big games.

Modric like most players of his style need protection, especially today when teams attack quite centrally. Without that person then his effectiveness a d every other attacking players effectiveness in our squad would be diminished. That's why we need an alternative to carrick much more than we need another creative player, regardless of how good modric would be.
 
carrick is better than a 'good' passer. no one has ever said he has the passing talent of pirlo, xavi, scholes, iniesta, alonso. but he's better than just 'good'.

the issue i have with carrick is if his dribbling ability was half that of his passing ability, he wouldn't be affected when being put under pressure as much as he would be able to create his own escape valve rather than constantly having to find a pass out due to an inability to dribble out of it.

A Pirlo or a Xavi? Hmmm... you mean like.... like Pirlo or Xavi?

My response was to the post saying Jones wont make it here as a CM because he isnt a "brilliant" passer of the ball. Which is why i said none of our CMs bar Scholes are, so thats not what will hold him back. There are very few brilliant passers, none of our CMs bar Scholes make the grade.
 
R2D2 would prefer this:

Carrick---------Modric

Valencia------Kagawa-------Nani

Rooney​

This would be so sweet... :drool:.

With Scholes, Cleverly, Giggs, Park, Young, Chicarito, and Wellback on the bench (and maybe Fletch and Anderson as well), we could really compete across all fronts.
 
Really don't want Welbs on the bench. He's blossoming into an excellent striker and leading the line for England. It will retard his development, plus he may be a Manc but if he's not starting much after last season he'll look elsewhere soon enough.
 
Nothing wrong with competition. Welbeck played a fair few games from wide areas and looked good, kagawa can play wide as well. If welbeck is playing well then he'll get games. All of them, welbeck, kagawa, nani, Valencia, young, Hernandez, even Rooney are competing for four starting spots effectively. Most of them bar Hernandez and Valencia are flexible enough to be effective in a number of roles, I don't think it'll be an issue.
 
How to play Rooney, Kagawa and Welbeck at the same time?

Playing all 3 at the same time will be tough vs good opposition unless Kagawa plays out left. vs the weaker opponents, we might play Kagawa further ahead of Carrick in midfield.
 
Welbeck - Rooney


Kagawa -----
Young ---------------------- Valencia
------Carrick​

Simples.
wigan 1 us 0 last time we played with only 1 dlp and 1 attacking mid / old man who cant run much. an attacking mid helps out as much as a giggs playing cm. well get overrun
 
Welbeck - Rooney


Kagawa -----
Young ---------------------- Valencia
------Carrick​

Simples.

That is basically a 4-4-2. You have just arranged them a little differently. You are pushing Kagawa back into central midfield instead of playing him as an AM.
 
Kagawa will start from the left welbeck and Rooney up front, kagawa will move inside with Evra/bale overlapping, or kagawa will move inside with Rooney or welbeck moving out wide to leave one up front. The system needs to be flexible/ fluid.

Just realised this is the Modric thread
 
Nothing wrong with competition. Welbeck played a fair few games from wide areas and looked good, kagawa can play wide as well. If welbeck is playing well then he'll get games. All of them, welbeck, kagawa, nani, Valencia, young, Hernandez, even Rooney are competing for four starting spots effectively. Most of them bar Hernandez and Valencia are flexible enough to be effective in a number of roles, I don't think it'll be an issue.

To be honest... we need every player to earn their spot. In 99 Keane was a first choice, but Butt and Scholes started almost the exact same number of games... and on the front line Ole was a sub. We need more good players, and those that play will be earning their place imho.
 
I've never asked that we get a world class player or spend big money, my point has always been that if we sign a midfielder then a player who can come in for carrick and in some games if we want come in alongside him is more of a priority than another attacking midfielder.

You say we can't have that many players for 1 position, yet currently we have Anderson, cleverley, scholes and giggs all competing for 1 spot. Yes there maybe one off games where you could play a combo of them without carrick but personally I think that would be a rare occurance and be more due to
no options than an actual choice. I'm not one of the guys who thinks clev and ando are going to be top class, I need to see more from both to be convinced off that but whilst we still have them and scholes and giggs then I don't see a real need for a creative player. Last year the issue wasn't that they weren't creative but because due to injuries they didn't play and due to fletchers condition we lacked any cover for carrick or any similar player that could come in and make it solid for tougher games. If those two don't step up or can't stay fit then we could look for another creative player but we may as well give them the opportunity.

And it's not about fitness it's about what carrick provides. None of the other midfielders can do what he does, not at a high level. Each one of them needs a player like carrick, someone who will take most of the defensive duties. Not cause their lazy but because between them they either don't have the legs or don't do that role well. Yes in terms of numbers they could cover for him but not in terms of what he does. Look at modric when he plays for spurs he has at least 1 player alongside him taking away most the defensive burden, he helps but Parker bares the brunt of it. There's nothing wrong with that we were exactly the same with keane and scholes. Sometimes they bring in two defensively solid players and push him wider for big games.

Modric like most players of his style need protection, especially today when teams attack quite centrally. Without that person then his effectiveness a d every other attacking players effectiveness in our squad would be diminished. That's why we need an alternative to carrick much more than we need another creative player, regardless of how good modric would be.


I understand what you are saying, I just disagree.

You are essentially saying that we must play with holding midfielder(s) and cannot cope without one in any given game. I disagree. The start of last season showed that we can still win without Carrick. Yes the Cleverley-Anderson partnership left holes in the back, but did we not still win the games due to the increased amount of chances we ourselves had?

There is more than one way to play football and - especially against the weaker teams - Carrick is not a requirement. A DM-AM combo in midfield works, but 2 rounded CMs can work just as well. Modric is not an AM in the mould of Sneijder or Nasri, but a much more rounded player who puts in a shift defensively as well as offering a lot going forward. He isnt a DM and he isnt an AM (though I have no doubt he could play a more advanced role if required), he is a CM, and if paired with another "true" CM, would be absolutely fine.
In the big games often you want a holding player, yes, but you are underestimating our team if you think we have to have someone screening the back four (which is one of the best back fours in the world anyway) in every single game.

The fitness issue is relevant as well - Carrick has played an average of 45 games per season or so since joining us, clearly he is not injury prone and does not suffer from lacking fitness, hence he is reliable to be available for most, if not all of the season, unlike the likes of Anderson and Cleverley.
So again, buying a dedicated Carrick replacement is wasteful.

If it were me, I would write off Fletcher, sell Anderson and get in 2 new midfielders, ideally in the mould of Modric and Martinez. I would be delighted if we got both, I would be happy if we got either, but out of the two, Modric represents exactly what we need.
 
I haven't said we need a holding player, I wouldn't say carrick is a holding midfielder, he can play that role but he is a centre mid with strong defensive abilities and the ability to playmaker. A player like that would be fine. Fletcher is a box to box player again with strong defensive qualities of in a different way to carrick, a player like him would be fine.

A well balanced midfield can work but we don't have that. Scholes and giggs need protection whoever partners them has to do additional running to cover for them, as such that person needs a strong defensive game. Only carrick can give this.

Anderson and cleverley both have plenty to learn defensively. IMO ando still hasn't fully converted to a natural centre mid and looks much more comfortable in a 3. I would say the same about clev as well although I need to see more. From what I have seen though I would say both have defensive weaknesses. Both get drawn to the ball and certainly in the case of ando they're tracking can be lax.

Yes we won the first 3 games with them. But in each we were open as you said and considering both spurs and arse al were both missing a number of key players and in arsenals case in shocking form I would say that's not a true indicator. Certainly against weaker teams you could get away with that but in tougher games I don't think you could.

Which brings me to my next point. You shouldn't just assume that as carrick has a good injury record he'll always be around. Anything could happen, vidic generally had a solid record and then he got an injury that ruled him for the season. You should always have back up particularly for key roles.

Virtually every top team has two solid midfielders. They might be different styles but in principle they provide an excellent shield of the defence and give a platform to start attacks. We have our own style and we don play the same as other top teams but I don't think we're that diffent that we can get away with a number of midfielders who either don't have the legs to give much protection in the middle or players that don't have the knowledge/training to do those roles.

Going back to modric particularly again yes he helps out but he still needs defensive protection. Why do they partner him with Parker? Parker was specifically brought in to partner modric. When spurs have had tougher games this season they've also brought in Sandro or Livermore and pushed modric wide or further upfield. When we had keane did he not provide more cover than scholes? Is scholes not best now when paired with carrick another player who relieves some of the defensive burden on him?

Again I'd love modric but the reality for me is that with fetcher such a doubt we can't afford to not have cover for carrick or a defensive alternative in the squad to partner him. He won't always be available and we need to be prepared if its a decent lay off. Sometimes we'll need two solid players in there, every other top team does this from time to time. We don't have anyone who can give this. Im not saying we should break the bank just that in principle this sort of player should be a bigger priority. It's out only priority for me. We can get away with a solid if uninspiring midfield, as the attacking options we have are quality. A defensively insecure midfield though would be very detrimental obviously defensively and subsequently on the attack.
 
You certainly make a good case and I agree that neither Scholes nor Giggs are going to be able to play without someone like Carrick partnering them - although I think Cleverley and Anderson could both surprise a lot of people defensively next season.

Every single big game we played last season we were overrun in midfield, as well as against a lot of supposedly weaker teams. As soon as anyone put a bit of pressure on us we crumpled like a deck of cards. Considering this, we still did extremely well it has to be said.

The problem then, isnt needing another player to screen the back four. It's having players in the middle of the park who are comfortable on the ball and can keep and dictate play when needed, any of the Spain midfield would do, based on tonight.

That as I see it is the problem, and the answer to that is a player like Modric, who (probably exaggerating) would single handedly transform our midfield in the bigger games. We have the likes of Rooney and Valencia providing additional defensive support as well as Carrick, and a world class defence. Defensive mindedness is NOT our problem in my eyes.

Again on the fitness issue, no we cannot guarantee that Carrick won't get a long term injury, but it's about probability and that is just a risk we will have to take unless we are prepared to sign two midfielders. We winged it last season with our current set of midfielders despite being outplayed in a lot of our games, hence why we failed so badly in Europe. The same sort of thing will happen again next season unless we address the real issue which is on how to respond when teams put a bit of pressure on us, because longer it goes on, the more teams will realise how easy it is to exploit that weakness.
 
You certainly make a good case and I agree that neither Scholes nor Giggs are going to be able to play without someone like Carrick partnering them - although I think Cleverley and Anderson could both surprise a lot of people defensively next season.

Every single big game we played last season we were overrun in midfield, as well as against a lot of supposedly weaker teams. As soon as anyone put a bit of pressure on us we crumpled like a deck of cards. Considering this, we still did extremely well it has to be said.

The problem then, isnt needing another player to screen the back four. It's having players in the middle of the park who are comfortable on the ball and can keep and dictate play when needed, any of the Spain midfield would do, based on tonight.

That as I see it is the problem, and the answer to that is a player like Modric, who (probably exaggerating) would single handedly transform our midfield in the bigger games. We have the likes of Rooney and Valencia providing additional defensive support as well as Carrick, and a world class defence. Defensive mindedness is NOT our problem in my eyes.

Again on the fitness issue, no we cannot guarantee that Carrick won't get a long term injury, but it's about probability and that is just a risk we will have to take unless we are prepared to sign two midfielders. We winged it last season with our current set of midfielders despite being outplayed in a lot of our games, hence why we failed so badly in Europe. The same sort of thing will happen again next season unless we address the real issue which is on how to respond when teams put a bit of pressure on us, because longer it goes on, the more teams will realise how easy it is to exploit that weakness.

But we weren't always over run and in the games that we were it wasn't with our first choice midfield. Against Ajax Carrick didn't play, against Athletic he only played the second leg. In the group stage we missed Carrick in a few games, particularly the deciding one, not to mention other injuries in the defence. On top of that in most games and really all season seeing he was never at his best we missed one of our first names on the team sheet for these big games- Fletcher. He would have come in with Carrick and given us a solid shield. I don't think we would have had any of the issues we had to the extent we did with both he and Carrick together for the bigger games. But he wasn't and due to his condition we can't rely on him to be back.

In europe we missed Carrick for a number of games as well as other problems and Fletcher when he was around wasn't at his best, clearly due to his illness.
But that's why we have two issues in the midfield. Firstly we lack another midfielder in their physical peak who is reliable fitness wise. Fletcher obviously has his illness, clev and ando have injury problems. Having another player like that around for most the season would help carrick a lot. They might not be as defensively good as him but they have the energy to help out and alleviate the burden on Carrick. Second half we had to rely on Scholes as everyone else was injured, a player who we stopped playing in the bigger games because he needed too much protection. Carrick can only do so much. No one can provide full cover.

Secondly without Fletcher we don't have a back up for Carrick or a defensively solid option to come in alongside him. This is big issue. Like I said Carrick can't always be expected to play, he didn't last season and we generally suffered without him.

Modric can help in the first situation but he can't in the second and that's why for me he's not a priority. If we can get him and another then great, but right now another player with defensive strengths, not necessarily a dm, is more important.

Looking at the spanish example you gave, their central 3 are very good defensively. Busquets and Alonso are as strong defensively as Carrick is, and I'm sure most would say they're better defensively. Both are comfortably better defensively then any of our other options and Modric. Xavi is better defensively than any of our midfielders bar Carrick. Scholes might have the edge in the final third but Xavi definitely has it from a deeper more defensive role. And that's regardless of their possession abilities. I'm talking purely about tracking players, tackling, positioning etc.

In time I would expect Ando and Clev to improve defensively, but they've got plenty to learn attacking wise let alone defensively and they still need to sort out their fitness issues. But we can give them another season for that. As I've said signing someone who's more defensively strong will give us competition/back up for Carrick as well as an option if they do get injured or if we want to be more solid. If we can etc Modric as well then I'd never say no, Fergie can have the issue of keeping them all happy, but just like we don't need another winger, or centre back or striker, we don't really need another creative player. We have players there even if we're unsure on how good they'll be. What we do need though is an alternative to Carrick.

Also I think getting in a partner for Carrick who doesn't need his protection would allow Carrick to venture forward more often. With Carrick getting his form back for a solid year now I'd expect it to continue and I think he showed last season that when he does get forward he has something to offer. A reliable partner would let him show that. But even without that Carrick and another solid partner would give the others a platform ahead to work off and would mean the likes of Rooney and Young don't have to track back loads to hep cover.

Like I said if we could get that sort of player and Modric then perfect, but if it's just one then I think we need that sort of player far more.
 
It would appear we have reached an impassé then.

Final thought though is on the topic of the Spanish players in mention. You say simply that players are "as strong defensively as Carrick" or similar, and I dont disagree. The point I was making however, is not simple defensive strength - which I dont think you can measure quite that easily, but rather their ability to show for the ball when under pressure and make use of it.

That composure and technique is what is currently missing in our midfield, and Carrick is one of the culprits. When an opponent applies pressure and closes us down, we have no players (maybe Cleverley but it is too early to be sure) who can regularly play their way out of trouble, which means we have a glaring weakness which unless fixed, will remain the case and simply be exposed next season. Its not a defensive midfielder we need but simply a player who can hold the ball under pressure, turn and release rather than panicking and hoofing it upfield or passing backwards (which often just puts the defence under pressure instead, which is much worse).


The above weakness is our team we know. We saw it last season and despite how well we did in the league, anyone watching our games would see that as soon as a team hassle us and close down our CMs/defence, we start bottling it. Liverpool have been doing it for years which partially explains their good record against us (until recently), and other teams have started to follow suit. Next season you can be your arse we will see even more teams domestically and in Europe employing similar tactics of closing us down and hassling and currently we have no answer for it I feel.

On the other hand, Carrick has a good injury record. That doesnt rule out him picking an injury, but the probability is low.

To use a Fergie style bizarre analogy, our team is a pot of water. We have 1 hole that we know about already (the "playing under pressure" thing), surely it makes more sense to plug that hole as the number one priority, rather than reinforcing another weak spot which may or may not break. I could go on but I fear that is as far as I can take the analogy.
 
Well if you take Alonso, he showed his defensive strengths with Liverpool who weren't anywhere as good at keeping the ball but still had an excellent defence, Real aren't as good as Barca/Spain at keeping the ball and Alonso shows his defensive strengths more. Busquets is Barca's main defensive man in the middle.

I agree there are some issues in our team with pressing but I think that's hard to judge. I don't think Carrick is as bad as people say in that respect but your midfield partner(s) matter greatly. If you take the two Barca games he's lacked midfield partners who can do the defensive work required or have the consistentcy on the ball required to deal with Barca and play out or provide a wall against them.

In Europe/Europa league he missed most our games, and the midfielders we played were usually not idea. Even in the league where we struggled it wasn't ideal. The Everton and City games for example weren't games where we would ideally have played Scholes. Putting him in there put too much burden on Carrick as it would any player.

That's another problem though and I think Modric/Cleverley would suffer from it. In those games both injuries and Fergie's choices put us into situations where we get over run in the middle. Simply if we're going to persist with two midfielders then both of those guys need to be strong defensively because most teams will play a minimum of 3 in the middle against them and in reality then end up with more than 3 central players because mos teams now use their fullbacks for width and let their "wide" players roam. Like I said Modric usually plays in a 5 in tougher games for Spurs and I think Croatia's default formation has two more defensive players behind him, this is because you need that protection these days and also to allow players like Modric that freedom to influence.

Personally I don't think we'll ever fully eradicate our issues in the middle unless we adapt our approach in those games and either have two solid players sitting or bring a central player back and go for a 3. Yes against City we tried that with Park, but both Scholes and Park were not suited to those roles and I think most would say Fergie got that game wrong. Also you could argue Rooney has helped by playing deeper but I really don't think he played that deep. Hopefully Kagawa will help in that respect.

If we can get Clev/Ando fit for more games then I dn't think we'll see those issues with teams pressurising us so much. Like I said alot of the problem with that has been either not having the right balance in midfield due to a lack of defensive protection, i.e. I think one Europa cup game we played Giggs and Jones, or having to pick a non ideal partner for Carrick in tough games, i,e scholes against Everton and City. Having a more energetic player like clev/ando/fletch would reduce that problem imo.

Obviously that relies on them staying fit, but as I've said unless we're giving up on them then we may as well see. Additionally as I've also said if we were to sign a more defensively strong player again that would help reduce the problem, provided they're around to play. Dropping one of the strikers deeper would also definitely help.

As I've said Modric would easily slot in alongside Carrick, but take Carrick out and you've got big problems. All the issues you think were there last season in terms of being overrun and going to be much worse. Modric might keep the ball better then our other players but we can't always have it. In all his time in England he's always had a more defensive partner, he needs that, virtually every player of his ilk needs that, especially today with teams attacking very centrally. That's not putting him down, Scholes is my favourite player but even at his peak he needed a Keane which is why they were so perfect. If carrick gets injured then his ability to impact games will be greatly reduced. We can get by with a solid midfield, even if it's not as creative as Modric would be it'll be enough. We didn't struggle for goals last season, but we did leak goals and were very luck at times not to concede a lot more.

Like I said you can't just hope he's going to stay fit, to me that's an unnecessary gamble. Last season Fergie took a gamble on Fletcher and chose not to address it in january and to me that helped contribute to not winning the title. I don't think we can afford not to address it this season.
 
According to Sundays papers Tevez and Modric are off to Madrid! I wonder who would be the odd men out at Madrid if that was the case!....Possibly Benzema, Higuain and Di Maria!
 
According to Sundays papers Tevez and Modric are off to Madrid! I wonder who would be the odd men out at Madrid if that was the case!....Possibly Benzema, Higuain and Di Maria!

It might be worth it if Tevez finally fecks-off.
 
According to Sundays papers Tevez and Modric are off to Madrid! I wonder who would be the odd men out at Madrid if that was the case!....Possibly Benzema, Higuain and Di Maria!

I really doubt that. It seems like typical gossipy journalism, for a paper just trying to sell their story. The Tevez one makes no sense. They have Ronaldo, Higuiain and Bemzema in attack. They have no need for him. It's debatable whether they need Modric or not either.
 
feckin athletico for teveth!
He is no better than REAL have already
 
I really doubt that. It seems like typical gossipy journalism, for a paper just trying to sell their story. The Tevez one makes no sense. They have Ronaldo, Higuiain and Bemzema in attack. They have no need for him. It's debatable whether they need Modric or not either.

Cheesy when has that ever stopped them (Kaka & Sahin being the most recent I can think off)
 
Cheesy when has that ever stopped them (Kaka & Sahin being the most recent I can think off)

It hasn't really stopped them, but look at the sort of attitude a player like Tevez has. He would poison the dressing room no matter what over time, but if he wasn't getting played? It's basically asking for team morale to be destroyed.
 
Cheesy when has that ever stopped them (Kaka & Sahin being the most recent I can think off)

If Sahin is available at all, why the feck are we not in for him? He is everything we need in my view.

Defensively sound, brilliant passer, great vision, great engine, comfortable in possession, and a proven midfield general and dictator of the play in a successful team at Dortmund. Probably available for less than £20m too, i cannot understand how anybody could think he would not be of huge benefit to our team. A great player imo.

Imo his versatility and all round capabilities make him a better option than either Martinez or modric. Martinez is a bit too defensive and Modric not quite defensive enough, Sahin ticks both boxes and it also helps he can pass like Scholes. :drool:

Come one SAF get him signed, i think he could be the one we have been looking for personally.
 
Its Real Madrid.

They are known for such transfer activity.

They are not known for selling players who have starred in successful campaigns. They are known for making expensive signings, but if that signing struggles, or the team have a poor season, then they start to cull the unfavoured.

Don't know how Benzema or Di Maria would deserve to be sold. Thought they were both excellent overall for Madrid last year. I would think the likes of Lass, Sahin, Kaka, Arbeloa, possibly Carvalho and Higuain too will be the most likely to make way for any new arrivals.
 
If Sahin is available at all, why the feck are we not in for him? He is everything we need in my view.

Defensively sound, brilliant passer, great vision, great engine, comfortable in possession, and a proven midfield general and dictator of the play in a successful team at Dortmund. Probably available for less than £20m too, i cannot understand how anybody could think he would not be of huge benefit to our team. A great player imo.

Imo his versatility and all round capabilities make him a better option than either Martinez or modric. Martinez is a bit too defensive and Modric not quite defensive enough, Sahin ticks both boxes and it also helps he can pass like Scholes. :drool:

Come one SAF get him signed, i think he could be the one we have been looking for personally.

RM players tend to be paid shitloads of money and players rend not to like paycuts very much