Paucity of great centre midfielders today

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That line of reasoning was based on what you stated - the newer generation will always be better than the older generation
If you find it daft, that is because your assertion was on shaky ground to begin with

So use your logical sense to answer your own assertion
is Germany 2000 > West Germany 1990?
is France 2011 > France 2000?
is Portugal 2011 > Portugal 2000?
is Italy 2010 > Italy 2000?

The whole premise of the thread was the depth of top quality talent in different eras. Within the context of that era, the pitch and equipment, the medical science and fitness conditioning etc, judge the proven quality of the player's talent and his level of play on a sustained basis, is he a great player? then compare the numbers of individuals who qualify in each era.
As the above examples show, the availability of top quality talent waxes, wanes and waxes over time. Our own experience in youth development is another example. Talent is not a production line neither can football talent measured predominantly by how big, strong and quick the players are.

Good post!

But better is not the same as more talented. Every generation have their highs and lows. I never stated there is a production line.

Maybe my school English sucks and I misunderstand a lot of words, or maybe I can't explain everything correct.

But this will be my lost post in this subject. Every generation become's better and better, but that's not the same as to say a new generation produce more talent's.

Maradona is better then Messi. That's my opinion. But Barcelona is probably the best team ever. 11 against 11 in there prime.
 
You don't get it and you miss the point.

Bjorn Borg was a tennis legend with dozens of Grand Slam titles. He wouldn't have a chance against any of today's top 25 players in tennis.

"Burken" had probably more talent and better fitness then all of them except Federer and Nadal. It would still end up with a loss probably something like 6-0,6-0,6-1. I blame "Labbe" and Donnay!

You missed my point
The OP was comparing the depth of top quality midfield talent in different eras ie how many great midfielders were there in each era? and as defined in an earlier post, a great midfielder is one who has proven his quality and continues to play at a very high level. He can only play in his own era but that does not prevent us from judging whether he is a great player in his own right. In the end, we count the numbers in each era and compare the quantity. Was there more top quality talent back then or now? and no doubt in future, the quantity of top quality talent will wax and wane again
 
Good post!

But better is not the same as more talented. Every generation have their highs and lows. I never stated there is a production line.

Maybe my school English sucks and I misunderstand a lot of words, or maybe I can't explain everything correct.

But this will be my lost post in this subject. Every generation become's better and better, but that's not the same as to say a new generation produce more talent's.

Maradona is better then Messi. That's my opinion. But Barcelona is probably the best team ever. 11 against 11 in there prime.

Given the premise of this thread, i assumed a better generation as having greater depth in top quality talent. The production line statement was in reference to the unpredictable fluctuating nature of top talent availability.

There is nothing wrong with your English, I could read it perfectly, it was just that we were arguing on different premises and batting past each other. It was a misunderstanding which I should have sorted out in a better manner

As of now, I agree about Maradona. The current Barcelona is certainly up there with the best I have ever seen. If transported by a time travel machine to take on any team in history in a head-to-head match, they would more likely than not beat them.

Cheers!
 
You have nailed the crux of the argument
And the imagination, fantasy and invention that set these players apart are not things that can be canned and transferred
Genius is nothing like a production line

Thanks mate. Not often I can string together a sentence after this many beers so I'm glad I'm still coherent.

Nobody think a new Audi RS8 is a better car then the classical Jaguar E-type. But you can be damn sure is faster, have better acceleration and more comfortable. But that doesn't count when we compare them

But the human body doesn't evolve at anywhere near the speed that technology does.

There you have it!

Everything progress. A Rod Laver wouldn't stand a chance against John McEnroe, and Jimmy Connors would be shark food against Bom Bom Becker. And so on.

The thing is that the players in Brazil 1970 wasn't as fit as they are today. The tempo was different and that makes the difference.

Is it so hard to understand?

Like you said with the doping point mate, if we're discussing tennis then we've got to discuss superior rackets. Just like in powerlifting the numbers have soared, but take off the gimp suits and the unequipped standards haven't really improved at all (assuming of course any sad bastard other than me actually follows powerlifting at any level). If we look at olympic lifting, where the equipment has remained static (ie there is none) numbers have actually went backward. There's very little to support an assertion that athletes are necessarily getting better across the board. In a sport where sport-specific skill still reigns supreme, there's no reason to assume we'll improve from generation to generation.
 
Funny enough I was going to use the example of boxing to make the exact opposite point! Ali would easily dominate this extremely poor era of heavyweights, as would Foreman, Holmes, Tyson and just about any other of the 210lb+ great heavyweights of previous eras. The Klit brothers, especially Vitali, are the only ones that would realistically be competitive with them. This argument that the standard of athlete has continually risen in every sport is erroneous, and boxing is a perfect example. In the strength sports as well standards have generally stagnated for about two decades in olympic weightlifting and unequipped powerlifting.

In a sport where sport-specific skill trumps pure athleticism its even more the case that standards don't perpetually increase from generation to generation. While Xavi, Iniesta, Messi etc are extremely fit and nimble, they certainly aren't at the top of the game because they're the finest pure athletes, its because of their technical and tactical attributes. Similar to MMA, where people thought that the emergence of Lesnar, Carwin, Overeem etc meant that more normally sized heavyweights would be overmatched, yet the likes of Velasquez and Dos Santos are still at the summit of the heavyweight division.


I agree re heavyweight division, big...especially African American lads aren't going into boxing...instead are concentrating on other less painful sports, which is why we're see more boxers from Eastern European, who aren't a patch on the oldies. West Indian cricket is suffering from the same problem...kids would rather be the next NBA star than the new Darren Sammy. And who can blame them. In these cases, new is by no means better...in fact it's the opposite.
 
Funny enough I was going to use the example of boxing to make the exact opposite point! Ali would easily dominate this extremely poor era of heavyweights, as would Foreman, Holmes, Tyson and just about any other of the 210lb+ great heavyweights of previous eras. The Klit brothers, especially Vitali, are the only ones that would realistically be competitive with them. This argument that the standard of athlete has continually risen in every sport is erroneous, and boxing is a perfect example. In the strength sports as well standards have generally stagnated for about two decades in olympic weightlifting and unequipped powerlifting.

In a sport where sport-specific skill trumps pure athleticism its even more the case that standards don't perpetually increase from generation to generation. While Xavi, Iniesta, Messi etc are extremely fit and nimble, they certainly aren't at the top of the game because they're the finest pure athletes, its because of their technical and tactical attributes. Similar to MMA, where people thought that the emergence of Lesnar, Carwin, Overeem etc meant that more normally sized heavyweights would be overmatched, yet the likes of Velasquez and Dos Santos are still at the summit of the heavyweight division.

Good post. But although I know absolutely nothing about weightlifting. Would it be wrong to suggest that the increased levels of drug testing would be a pretty good reason why that has stagnated?
 
At the turn of the millennium in 2000, there were

Zidane
Deschamps
Davids
Nedved
Scholes
Keane
Veron
Effenberg
Redondo
Rui Costa
Guardiola
Seedorf
Vieira

today the comparable ones are only
Xavi
Iniesta
Fabregas
Sneijder
Alonso

Xavi
Iniesta
Busquets
Fabregas
Özil
Xabi Alonso
Khedira
Schweinsteiger
Pirlo
Sneijder
De Rossi
Touré
Modric
David Silva
Mata
Song
Carrick

Two teams monopolising half of them doesn't help of course. Spreading these players would make this era look much greater. It's the proper distribution rather than the quality that is lacking. Imagine:

Sneijder and De Rossi to Juve => Sneijder-Pirlo-De Rossi
Modric to City => Toure-Modric-Silva
Fabregas back to Arsenal => Fabregas-Wilshere-Song
Xavi and Schweinsteiger to Manchester United => Carrick-Schweinsteiger-Xavi
Barcelona: Busquets-Thiago-Iniesta
Real Madrid staying as they are: Alonso-Khedira-Özil

And all of a sudden you would have at least 6 teams in the Champions League with highly competitive world class midfields which would all give each other a hell of a game.
 
Are Song/Carrick/Mata/Khedira really the equivalent of any of those on the 2000 list?
 
Two teams monopolising half of them doesn't help of course. Spreading these players would make this era look much greater. It's the proper distribution rather than the quality that is lacking.

This is true although as Brwned says there's a couple of players on your list who don't merit comparison with Polaroid's selection.

As indicated earlier in the thread, three central midfielders leads to specialisation of roles rather than the all-round game required for a pair.

There's very little to support an assertion that athletes are necessarily getting better across the board. In a sport where sport-specific skill still reigns supreme, there's no reason to assume we'll improve from generation to generation.

Aye. Aside from the sprints up to 200m, there's not been a record broken in men's running since the 1990s. The only one which has been improved on is the 800m yet that's to all intents and purposes the same as Seb Coe was running over 30 years ago. And although the influence of drug use in women's track is far clearer, there's neverthless not been a record broken in any of the main events since 1993.
 
Are Song/Carrick/Mata/Khedira really the equivalent of any of those on the 2000 list?

Probably not, but then again I forgot Cambiasso and Mascherano. Kaka before 2010 should be included as well. Essien, Ballack (if you count Effenberg), Gerrard and Lampard as well. Riquelme? Senna? Point is: it's certainly not just Xavi, Iniesta, Fabregas and Alonso as the OP suggests.
 
Old list is missing Mendieta and arguably Baraja depending on where you draw the quality line.

If you include Khedira then there are loads to add.
 
Probably not, but then again I forgot Cambiasso and Mascherano. Kaka before 2010 should be included as well. Essien, Ballack (if you count Effenberg), Gerrard and Lampard as well. Riquelme? Senna? Point is: it's certainly not just Xavi, Iniesta, Fabregas and Alonso as the OP suggests.

I don't think that current list is a list of best midfielders of the last 5 years or so, just a list of the best midfielders at this moment/2011 (or over the last year, as it was in the case of the older list). Again I'm not sure Cambiasso's quite at that level, but I do agree he's been slightly harsh on some of the current crop. The 2000 one is still bigger though, even if you're generous with this current crop.

Xavi
Iniesta
Busquets
Fabregas
Özil
Xabi Alonso
Schweinsteiger
Pirlo
Sneijder
De Rossi
Touré
Modric

(2 less than older list)
 
Funny enough I was going to use the example of boxing to make the exact opposite point! Ali would easily dominate this extremely poor era of heavyweights, as would Foreman, Holmes, Tyson and just about any other of the 210lb+ great heavyweights of previous eras. The Klit brothers, especially Vitali, are the only ones that would realistically be competitive with them. This argument that the standard of athlete has continually risen in every sport is erroneous, and boxing is a perfect example. In the strength sports as well standards have generally stagnated for about two decades in olympic weightlifting and unequipped powerlifting.

In a sport where sport-specific skill trumps pure athleticism its even more the case that standards don't perpetually increase from generation to generation. While Xavi, Iniesta, Messi etc are extremely fit and nimble, they certainly aren't at the top of the game because they're the finest pure athletes, its because of their technical and tactical attributes. Similar to MMA, where people thought that the emergence of Lesnar, Carwin, Overeem etc meant that more normally sized heavyweights would be overmatched, yet the likes of Velasquez and Dos Santos are still at the summit of the heavyweight division.
Great post mate.

If I can throw another example - a guy like Federer is ruling over tennis world once again at the age of 36, taking 3 out of the last 5 slams and ascending into the #1 position, despite making his ATP debut more than 2 decades ago, began playing with natural gut rather than poly strings and was serve and volleying where the latter as a style now is completely dead.

So yes - great players adapt pretty well to the conditions they are set in(or born) to play and are transcendent to any era. A guy like Lingard will still be a squad player in a team that has Sir Bobby, Law and Best in its rank and Best would still be a world beater played today.

Damn, thought this was from the other thread and just saw I bumped an old one.. :lol:
 
Nice work @Enigma_87, way to resurrect the dead! :lol:

If this topic is still relevant, make a new thread.

Close shutters
 
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