Can we play through him more often, please? The ping it to the right wing and hope for a good Nani cross thing is not working.
Shinji Kagawa
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I know it's a cliché but he really needs to strengthen a bit, it's too easy to get the ball off him.
He can definitely play well on the left, but the major problem is, what happens if Nani and Valencia, as well as Young possibly, are all on form? Then we've got a major problem and leaving top player out only unsettles them.
Fergie seems unsure at the moment as to where he wants Kagawa's long term position to be and what he see's him at. I hope he works it out soon because it's really going to halt Kagawa's season if he's suffering from being constantly shifted about.
Fergie seems unsure at the moment as to where he wants Kagawa's long term position to be and what he see's him at. I hope he works it out soon because it's really going to halt Kagawa's season if he's suffering from being constantly shifted about.
This. I do get worried by seeing decisions like this.
Well clearly this 4-5-1 isn't utilising Kagawa very well at all. We've always been shit when we go to this formation. Maybe its partly because our other central midfielders are so static (e.g. Carrick).
He was much better in the second half when we had Rooney on and the formation was much more fluid.
Not the first time this season that we've looked a bit lost in attack after taking him off in a home game.
We had already lost our impetus from the goalscoring, Kagawa was getting a bit less involved and Welbeck was more likely to get on the end of a cross. It was a perfectly reasonable idea for a substitution, it just didnt really work as Spurs set up well and defended well.
We aren't playing 4-5-1, watch it closely, it's a 4-2-3-1.
Not from where he was stationed out on the left wing.
The decline in our attack with Welbeck touching the ball twice from the left was just a coincidence then.
We play through the middle and he scores. No wonder RvP was the one providing the pass btw. He isnt infected by the "only play the ball wide" philsophy of us as of yet.
Stupid comment, but we should pass the ball quickly too him and often. It suits his style.
I actually think a midfield of Cleverley/Ando would benefit him a lot. Kagawa on the left drifting in is currently our best option for the left wing IMO. Plus Kagawa has no worry about taking a touch and crossing with his left foot either.
We've wasted him a bit up until now. We are scared to pass to him when hes marked even though he has the ability to glide past somebody.
I actually think a midfield of Cleverley/Ando would benefit him a lot. Kagawa on the left drifting in is currently our best option for the left wing IMO. Plus Kagawa has no worry about taking a touch and crossing with his left foot either.
We've wasted him a bit up until now. We are scared to pass to him when hes marked even though he has the ability to glide past somebody.
Our attack had already shifted to pass the ball around hoping something happens by then
It's more of a 4-4-1-1, with the general play of 'get it wide, get it in'
We need to narrow the attacking 3 behind the striker and get our width mostly from the fullbacks. The outside attackers should be making runs between the fullback and centreback more frequently, whereas at the moment they are still receiving the ball near the touchline and having to beat the fullback to get the cross in. Kagawa and Van Persie don't do as well with balls flung in from out wide, they are excellent at receiving and playing throughballs.
He did some really good stuff and did well at times in the second half but his overall performance was only okay. He needs time to learn the English game.
He did seem to play better in the second half when his role seemed more 'defined'. He was linking better with the play when he was on the left.
I'd quite like to see him playing left of a front three with Rooney central and RVP on the right. They would have to be properly interchangeable though.
I'd quite like to see him playing left of a front three with Rooney central and RVP on the right. They would have to be properly interchangeable though.
Or just on the left with Rooney and Van Persie central and Nani on the right. We are good enough to play two strikers and it's worth playing them in their best positions.
I prefer him on the left of our attack, after all since we love to play the ball wide, he gets more of the ball and gets more involved in our play. That is even why he scored and Spurs were hanging on for dear life until he went off.
At the moment I'd consider trying him next to Carrick in midfield. He could be the answer to some problems if he can figure out that role. Has all the attributes.
He doesn't at all. He can't defend and is far too weak to play next to Carrick in a 4231. Even playing in the hole, Dembele and Sandro were bullying him off the ball when he dropped deep. His best position for now would be the position he played in the second half, drifting in from the left.
I should have said, I was thinking along the lines of three relatively interchangeable players and a more solid 3-man midfield.
Right now I don't think any of our central midfielders pair up together well enough to adequately protect a vulnerable central defence.
Good God. Does it really seem to you that this is what our midfield needs? After today? I too liked him on the left. I know his preference is central behind the striker(s) but he was really effective there today.
Yes he was he seems more comfortable and productive
Right, I have a problem with Kagawa... well more importantly, I think our team has a problem with Kagawa when he plays in behind a striker.
Now, Kagawa is obviously a very good footballer and is very comfortable on the ball. What he is not very good at doing I don't think however is finding space for himself, especially when we've played better sides. Seems to me like in the first half today, on he rare times he'd get the ball, he'd have to immediately pass it backwards as someone was on him, meaning he couldn't really link-up with RVP or the wide men and bring them into play. I also thought this was a fairly similar situation at Liverpool as well.
I might have been seeing it wrong, but for me, in the first half, we struggled because Paul Scholes had no one to pass too. With Kagawa struggling to find this space for himself, and Giggs and Nani also not making themselves available, we pretty much stifled ourselves into not being able to do much. This changed dramatically in the second half with the introduction of Rooney, who is bloody excellent at finding space for himself, and with Nani coming to life and getting into the game, and Kagawa being able to come inside from the wing and find space, suddenly Scholes had an array of options to pass too and we started to play well.
Basically, this is a long winded way of saying I'm liking the look of Kagawa on the wing a lot more then I am then him being in front of a front man. If he's on the wing, he's both a) not taxed with linking the play, b) in a fixed position and c) can used said fixed position to drift around and cause problems, and in turn, find it a little bit easier to get into space.
Now, Kagawa is obviously a very good footballer and is very comfortable on the ball. What he is not very good at doing I don't think however is finding space for himself, especially when we've played better sides. Seems to me like in the first half today, on he rare times he'd get the ball, he'd have to immediately pass it backwards as someone was on him, meaning he couldn't really link-up with RVP or the wide men and bring them into play. I also thought this was a fairly similar situation at Liverpool as well.
I might have been seeing it wrong, but for me, in the first half, we struggled because Paul Scholes had no one to pass too. With Kagawa struggling to find this space for himself, and Giggs and Nani also not making themselves available, we pretty much stifled ourselves into not being able to do much. This changed dramatically in the second half with the introduction of Rooney, who is bloody excellent at finding space for himself, and with Nani coming to life and getting into the game, and Kagawa being able to come inside from the wing and find space, suddenly Scholes had an array of options to pass too and we started to play well.
Basically, this is a long winded way of saying I'm liking the look of Kagawa on the wing a lot more then I am then him being in front of a front man. If he's on the wing, he's both a) not taxed with linking the play, b) in a fixed position and c) can used said fixed position to drift around and cause problems, and in turn, find it a little bit easier to get into space.
Kagawa isn't looking for the ball as much as he was doing from what I saw of him last year. To be honest, the whole team has a serious problem with this and it's the main disease that seems to be infecting everyone. It's getting to the point whereby I'm getting terrified of Daehli stepping up to the first team, because it's going to be so gutting to see him lose this. 
Not entirely serious...but it does seem infectious!
It shows either anxiety, laziness or a lack of fitness - I would wager the former.
Not entirely serious...but it does seem infectious!It shows either anxiety, laziness or a lack of fitness - I would wager the former.
Needs options when he's on the ball. In the first half we were so pedestrian and predictable it was all far too easy for Spurs.
Second half we had more players making forward runs, committing players and making space for our central midfielders. We will see the best of Kagawa in a side that has players who make aggressive runs in between the fullback and the centre half where he can play his amazingly weighted through balls.
When we have a static midfield, touchline hugging wingers either side and one striker for him to pick out it is stupidly easy to predict where the ball will go and intercept so I think he plays within himself.
A team with Nani and Kagawa out wide, Rooney playing off Van Persie, getting width from Rafael and Evra would be far more effective. I think we did this for the most part in the second half- in the first we were more 4-4-1-1 in the second more like a 4-2-3-1 (although that could be just because we sucked and were defending a lot more in the first half, the second we were going for it more)
If we play that line-up, with Rooney and Nani aggressively getting in the box and Kagawa cutting inside to play his through balls- someone is going to be on the end of a thumping.
Second half we had more players making forward runs, committing players and making space for our central midfielders. We will see the best of Kagawa in a side that has players who make aggressive runs in between the fullback and the centre half where he can play his amazingly weighted through balls.
When we have a static midfield, touchline hugging wingers either side and one striker for him to pick out it is stupidly easy to predict where the ball will go and intercept so I think he plays within himself.
A team with Nani and Kagawa out wide, Rooney playing off Van Persie, getting width from Rafael and Evra would be far more effective. I think we did this for the most part in the second half- in the first we were more 4-4-1-1 in the second more like a 4-2-3-1 (although that could be just because we sucked and were defending a lot more in the first half, the second we were going for it more)
If we play that line-up, with Rooney and Nani aggressively getting in the box and Kagawa cutting inside to play his through balls- someone is going to be on the end of a thumping.
I said this in that zombie passing thread last week. Kagawa doesn't work well in our current system and I can't see how he effectively will do in the future. We need to decide between having touchline-hugging wingers who just want to cross the ball and playing Rooney behind the strikers, or playing Kagawa through the middle and having wingers that make the runs that you have mentioned. At the moment it is neither here nor there.
I think the 4-2-3-1 gets the best out of Van Persie and Nani as well as Kagawa. Van Persie doesn't look as comfortable with the whipped crosses from wide as he is with balls to feet. In fact most of our attacking players are better suited to that game.
Much improved 2nd half(stating the obvious) - once he went to the left...he started to drift and was very good, disagreed with the substitution. Even if he was running on fumes, his removal, killed out momentum.
Kagawa isn't looking for the ball as much as he was doing from what I saw of him last year. To be honest, the whole team has a serious problem with this and it's the main disease that seems to be infecting everyone. It's getting to the point whereby I'm getting terrified of Daehli stepping up to the first team, because it's going to be so gutting to see him lose this.
It shows either anxiety, laziness or a lack of fitness - I would wager the former.
Kagawa last had the advantage of players around him that ran their asses off (he was not the one that did a lot runnings) and a system and running ways that were studied in. Dortmund is a team that goes for the break (even if they cannot do that to often anymore as the opponents get used to that) and not for ball possession.
One thing we could do to make him effective is to have people close to him. If we are gonna play 4-2-3-1 with him in the middle, The wingers could do without touchline hugging and cut in towards the box, where he could quickly interchange passes. We know that both Valencia and Nani are more than capable of playing one touch football right through the middle. That's what we should've been doing when from the time when they brought Sigurdsson on.
Yes hindsight and all but he's a player we could be building our game around.
Yes hindsight and all but he's a player we could be building our game around.
I just don't get how from last year when Rooney was playing as the deeper striker (similar to where Kagawa is playing) and scoring shit loads to now that we have an actual in the hole playmaker we are struggling.
The space has moved from between the deeper midfielders (Carrick-Scholes) and the back four to now between the deeper midfielders and Kagawa playing in the hole.
Go back and watch last year and Scholes and Carrick were further pushed up always in support of Rooney and playing compact in midfield now there is acres of space nearly everywhere around central midfield and pass completion attempts for average passes have gone up 50%.
It's almost like we've put Kagawa into our setup and placed the emphasis on Carrick-Scholes instead of saying well we're replacing Rooney with Kagawa and don't change anything lads.
The space has moved from between the deeper midfielders (Carrick-Scholes) and the back four to now between the deeper midfielders and Kagawa playing in the hole.
Go back and watch last year and Scholes and Carrick were further pushed up always in support of Rooney and playing compact in midfield now there is acres of space nearly everywhere around central midfield and pass completion attempts for average passes have gone up 50%.
It's almost like we've put Kagawa into our setup and placed the emphasis on Carrick-Scholes instead of saying well we're replacing Rooney with Kagawa and don't change anything lads.
DDG
P.Jones Vidic Smalling Buttner
Cleverley Anderson
Nani Rooney Kagawa
RVP
I'd like us to try something along those lines sometime this season if our luck holds out with injury.. team full of pace, youth and character, press high up the pitch.. pass and move football at speed.
Defensively it might be naive, but surely we'd create some aesthetic football with that side.
P.Jones Vidic Smalling Buttner
Cleverley Anderson
Nani Rooney Kagawa
RVP
I'd like us to try something along those lines sometime this season if our luck holds out with injury.. team full of pace, youth and character, press high up the pitch.. pass and move football at speed.
Defensively it might be naive, but surely we'd create some aesthetic football with that side.
A lot have been saying all season he should be tried from the left and, typically United, it only happened in desperation yesterday.
It's hard to take anything from the 2nd half because Spurs were so shit but it makes sense to try him out there again to me. There's naturally going to be a little more space out there and he can still come inside and effect play.
Get him on the left. Rooney behind RVP and either Nani or Valencia on the right.
It's hard to take anything from the 2nd half because Spurs were so shit but it makes sense to try him out there again to me. There's naturally going to be a little more space out there and he can still come inside and effect play.
Get him on the left. Rooney behind RVP and either Nani or Valencia on the right.
No Rafael? Harsh.
Cleverley - Anderson certainly has potential. Both need to improve their defensive discipline for that midfield to work long term though. Although that's something Cleverley has visibly been working on.
I like Rafael but one thing that's overlooked by Carrick being in the side is that Carrick is a great defender at set pieces, side lacks abit of height. P. Jones would give us that.. or even Smalling on the right and Evans in the centre.. wouldn't rule out Valencia/Rafael though.
I think he's just better of with players ahead of him/ near him. At the moment when we play him very high and then using Scholes who plays deep it creates a lot of space between the midfield and him and then you have the wingers who start behind him. I think he'd be a lot better playing a bit deeper, with a higher midifeld and having the wingers closer to him.
You're taking the piss, yeah? Individual man to man marking, man to man marking at set pieces, graft ball winning and tackling are Carrick's abyssal low-points.
----------De Gea
Rafael-Ferdinand-Vidic-Evra
----------Carrick
---Anderson---Cleverley---
-V.Persie-Rooney-Kagawa--
No natural wide players meaning we can't just default to our natural "give it to Valencia/Nani" when we get closed down, plenty of energy in midfield and more importantly; no focal point to our attack.
No role for Valencia in that team which is harsh, but you need to resort to plan B often in football so he'll still get plenty of game time. Welbeck, Hernandez, Nani and Young can all fit into the front 3 roles so plenty of rotation options.
Rafael-Ferdinand-Vidic-Evra
----------Carrick
---Anderson---Cleverley---
-V.Persie-Rooney-Kagawa--
No natural wide players meaning we can't just default to our natural "give it to Valencia/Nani" when we get closed down, plenty of energy in midfield and more importantly; no focal point to our attack.
No role for Valencia in that team which is harsh, but you need to resort to plan B often in football so he'll still get plenty of game time. Welbeck, Hernandez, Nani and Young can all fit into the front 3 roles so plenty of rotation options.
Could give it a go but then that's going from too wide to, to narrow. Take out one of clev or Ando, move Rooney deeper and then put a Nani or Valencia in. Then you have central play through Clev/Ando, Rooney and Kagawa and width through Nani/Valencia.
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