Politics at Westminster | BREAKING: UKIP

711 said:
I recall that the pundits at the time were most surprised that the result was a full coalition, rather than a voting pact, I don't think they'd seen that coming at all.
Click to expand...

I think even Cameron was surprised, judging from the speech he made the morning after the election.

Simon Adebesi said:
Not according to Laws. They were seriously considering the Rainbow Coalition option. But Labour stone walled them in the negotiations. They would not offer the referendum. The Tories did. And apparently Brown was the one who was up for it. He was begging Clegg. It was the other leader wannabes, Balls and D Milliband I think it was, that Laws felt were blocking it. They felt they'd be better off letting someone else get in while the crisis played out. Looks like they've been vindicated on that score if the polls are to be believed, and hold up into the next election.
Click to expand...

Might just've been journalist imaginations going wild at the time, or maybe it was Brown going rogue, but I definitely remember talk of Labour offering AV with a referendum on PR. Was certainly a lot of party opposition to going into coalition though, that much is without question.
 
alastair said:
Who knows what proportion it is? There's a hell of a lot who are though who get completely ignored on the Caf because everyone seems to assume they're all land-owners who'd bring back the feudal system given half a chance.
Click to expand...

I'd be surprised if there was any meaningful correlation between how hard you work / sensible you are and what party you vote for.
 
Simon Adebesi said:
Most Tory voters are hard working and sensible? What a pile of bollocks.
Click to expand...

Except it's not.

Most conservative voters (or areas with conservative mps) are areas of high employment, and low unemployment, low crime, and fewer social problems.

You post is completely condescending because you're suggesting that conservative voters are not hard working and foolish.
 
Ubik said:
I think even Cameron was surprised, judging from the speech he made the morning after the election.



Might just've been journalist imaginations going wild at the time, or maybe it was Brown going rogue, but I definitely remember talk of Labour offering AV with a referendum on PR. Was certainly a lot of party opposition to going into coalition though, that much is without question.
Click to expand...

There was opposition to it but when it happened the party members overwhelmingly ratified it. But yes, I think the media were filling in a lot of gaps with their imaginations. There was also a gap between what was being said publicly and what they were actually doing behind closed doors.
 
Simon Adebesi said:
There was opposition to it but when it happened the party members overwhelmingly ratified it. But yes, I think the media were filling in a lot of gaps with their imaginations. There was also a gap between what was being said publicly and what they were actually doing behind closed doors.
Click to expand...

I wasn't that clear with how I phrased that, apologies, I meant opposition to coalition (Lib/Lab) within the Labour ranks.
 
And Ed Milliband speech:

- No policy
- No economics
- One nation? WTF is this shit? This is the labour party who introduced devolution, who let bankers get super rich, who's own former party leaders are ALL millionaires.
 
You expect policy commitments in opposition half way through a 5 year parliament? Come on. Cameron waited years and years before coming out with anything.
 
Just checked the book. Lib Maps voted 50-0 in favour. Lords 31-0. And Federal Executive 27-1. So voters might have been against in a vague, unquantifiable way. But activists were in favour.
 
Jaz said:
Except it's not.

Most conservative voters (or areas with conservative mps) are areas of high employment, and low unemployment, low crime, and fewer social problems.

You post is completely condescending because you're suggesting that conservative voters are not hard working and foolish.
Click to expand...

No. I'm suggesting what I said in the post above yours. But rich people are more likely to vote Tory than poor people, ill give you that.
 
Ubik said:
You expect policy commitments in opposition half way through a 5 year parliament? Come on. Cameron waited years and years before coming out with anything.
Click to expand...

He waited until in power to announce pretty much everything: the unpopular NHS reform, the universal credit, the housing benefit changes, the unpopular education policies... none were announced in opposition. I wonder why.
 
alastair said:
Yes, but who's more likely to be rich?
Click to expand...

People with rich parents mostly.

social-mobility.jpg
 
711 said:
Well the Tories have thrown it away, that's for sure.
Click to expand...

Yep Big Society is a joke. Employed V Unemployed,Workers V Shirkers,North V South, Private V Public Sector, abled V disabled . Couldn't be more united.
 
Ubik said:
You expect policy commitments in opposition half way through a 5 year parliament? Come on. Cameron waited years and years before coming out with anything.
Click to expand...

There are no policy announcements, because they would do very little different from the coalition. They would have done practically everything similar to the current Coalition policies.

Alastair Darlings policy would have been very similar to Osbornes.

He waited until in power to announce pretty much everything: the unpopular NHS reform, the universal credit, the housing benefit changes, the unpopular education policies... none were announced in opposition. I wonder why.
Click to expand...

Exactly, Labour know the economic situation. They would have to do most of the cuts.

And btw, education policies are well supported, so are house benefits, welfare changes. Only a Small proportion of people are actually affected who a raising a fuss.
 
Simon Adebesi said:
Your implication being poor people are poor because they are lazy?

People with rich parents are more likely to be rich. A lot of poor people work bloody hard and are very sensible.
Click to expand...

No, I'm not implying anything.

People who are rich often send their kids to private school. That's where you get the best education, and get into the top jobs which pay the best.

If you raise state education to near enough the level of the private system, you'd get a lot closer to addressing the problems.
 
Jaz said:
And btw, education policies are well supported
Click to expand...

Only 20% think that Michael Gove is doing a good job as Secretary of State for Education, according to the latest YouGov poll. At the same time 51% said he was doing badly, while 30% didn’t know.
 
alastair said:
No, I'm not implying anything.

People who are rich often send their kids to private school. That's where you get the best education, and get into the top jobs which pay the best.

If you raise state education to near enough the level of the private system, you'd get a lot closer to addressing the problems.
Click to expand...

Number of students in private schools:500,000.
Conservative voters: 10,000,000.

Quite clearly it's a small aspect of life.
 
Jaz said:
There are no policy announcements, because they would do very little different from the coalition. They would have done practically everything similar to the current Coalition policies.

Alastair Darlings policy would have been very similar to Osbornes.
Click to expand...

You can decide that before the next general election, when the manifestos with policies are actually put out, and cast your vote accordingly. There's no point in detailing what you'd change 2 and a half years from now in a very uncertain economic environment.
 
MikeUpNorth said:
Only 20% think that Michael Gove is doing a good job as Secretary of State for Education, according to the latest YouGov poll. At the same time 51% said he was doing badly, while 30% didn’t know.
Click to expand...

It would be interesting what the general government rating is on it, and what other ministers are at.
 
It's not just on this forum actually, but in society as a whole, where people genuinely think that you have to be posh to vote Tory. There's loads of working class people who vote for them as is demonstrated by the figures.
 
Ubik said:
You can decide that before the next general election, when the manifestos with policies are actually put out, and cast your vote accordingly. There's no point in detailing what you'd change 2 and a half years from now in a very uncertain economic environment.
Click to expand...

Actually I can, and I have decided.

I think the governments economic policies are correct, given the absolute fecking disaster of the public finances in 2009.
 
alastair said:
If you raise state education to near enough the level of the private system, you'd get a lot closer to addressing the problems.
Click to expand...

The big issue is that services for the poor will become poor services.

If everyone was in the state school system the rich parents would make damn sure the state system was well funded and schools were well run.
 
Did anyone watch The Power of Money last night, and over the past few weeks? About Marx, Hayek and Keynes?

Nobody disagrees that public finances need repairing. Just a question of how best to repair them.
 
MikeUpNorth said:
The big issue is that services for the poor will become poor services.

If everyone was in the state school system the rich parents would make damn sure the state system was well funded and schools were well run.
Click to expand...

If everyone was in the state school system in the current climate, we'd be stuffed because that's a hell of a lot money more needed to fund it.

I don't understand this apparent chip on your shoulder about the wealthy. As I always say, very few people are born into huge wealth. Most people just earn it.
 
alastair said:
It's not just on this forum actually, but in society as a whole, where people genuinely think that you have to be posh to vote Tory. There's loads of working class people who vote for them as is demonstrated by the figures.
Click to expand...

I have a scottish person at work who wouldn't vote Tory ever. After questioning, had absolutely no reason not to, and in fact, was a unionist, believed in lower taxation and relaxed labour laws, and strongly disliked the EU.

Asian families are also pretty but tribalistic. The core-labour vote is probably more strongly associated with voting preference of the family.
 
alastair said:
It's not just on this forum actually, but in society as a whole, where people genuinely think that you have to be posh to vote Tory. There's loads of working class people who vote for them as is demonstrated by the figures.
Click to expand...

There are people in every social class who vote for each party. Here's the Tory vs Labour breakdown...

2010 Election voting by Social Class
(Con lead over lab +/-)
AB 13
C1 11
C2 8
DE -10

http://www.ipsos-mori.com/researchp...2613/How-Britain-Voted-in-2010.aspx?view=wide


If you look in 1997:
AB +10
C1 0
C2 -23
DE -38

http://www.ipsos-mori.com/researchp...2149/How-Britain-Voted-in-1997.aspx?view=wide
 
Are you actually Mitt Romney?
 
Ubik said:
Are you actually Mitt Romney?
Click to expand...

:p No, but I said at the time, it's correct that people who receive lots of benefits, or tax credits it's in their own interest to vote for parties who give them money, and for people who pay more tax to vote for the party that minimises taxes.
 
alastair said:
If everyone was in the state school system in the current climate, we'd be stuffed because that's a hell of a lot money more needed to fund it.
Click to expand...

A fair point. You'd have to raise taxes on the wealthy (which would be replacing the fees they paid to the private school).

alastair said:
I don't understand this apparent chip on your shoulder about the wealthy. As I always say, very few people are born into huge wealth. Most people just earn it.
Click to expand...

While people may 'earn it' in the sense that they work for it, the stats clearly show that a person's income is strongly correlated to parental income.

People may 'earn it', but they don't 'just earn it'.
 
Jaz said:
I have a scottish person at work who wouldn't vote Tory ever. After questioning, had absolutely no reason not to, and in fact, was a unionist, believed in lower taxation and relaxed labour laws, and strongly disliked the EU.

Asian families are also pretty but tribalistic. The core-labour vote is probably more strongly associated with voting preference of the family.
Click to expand...

Most people in Scotland can still remember the contempt with which they were treated by the previous Tory government, with the Poll Tax trial and the rest of it.

Immigrants and their children are more likely to vote for parties that support immigration. They are also more likely to be poor, and more likely to vote for parties that support the poor.

The tribal Labour vote is the Unions.
 
MikeUpNorth said:
Most people in Scotland can still remember the contempt with which they were treated by the previous Tory government, with the Poll Tax trial and the rest of it.

Immigrants and their children are more likely to vote for parties that support immigration. They are also more likely to be poor, and more likely to vote for parties that support the poor.
Click to expand...

Bizarrely, Indian and Black Caribbean have poverty, income and employment level close to White people. And yet all the polling suggests huge huge huge labour dominance for those groups compared to white.
 
Jaz said:
Bizarrely, Indian and Black Caribbean have poverty, income and employment level close to White people. And yet all the polling suggests huge huge huge labour dominance for those groups compared to white.
Click to expand...

From memory, I believe Indian and Black Caribbean families are still around 10% (?) more likely to live in poverty than White people in the UK...

Labour have also been historically more welcoming of immigrants, and arguably ethnic minorities in general.

Ethnic minorities are also more likely to live in big cities, which traditionally vote Labour.
 
Jaz said:
Bizarrely, Indian and Black Caribbean have poverty, income and employment level close to White people. And yet all the polling suggests huge huge huge labour dominance for those groups compared to white.
Click to expand...

What? Who'd have thought that ethnic minorities don't want to vote for the party of 'if you want a n*gger for a neighbour, vote for labour' and 'rivers of blood', and choose to vote for the other electable party instead?
 
alastair said:
It's not just on this forum actually, but in society as a whole, where people genuinely think that you have to be posh to vote Tory. There's loads of working class people who vote for them as is demonstrated by the figures.
Click to expand...

Even worse, there's this left-wing, patronising line that if someone from the working class votes for the Conservatives it's because of this "false consciousness" that Marx talked of.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.