He's a special player that's for sure, when he has the ball he demands your attention.
Shinji Kagawa
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I think we're getting a bit carried away with all this. We absolutely do have the personnel to profit from crosses. Some of our strikers have as good a movement as anybody in the world and we've been profiting from crosses since... forever.
We have the personnel for both styles Steve but more tailored towards a more central style.
I think at the end of the day, we all agree it's limiting to United to overly rely on wingers. Especially the ones we have now. It can work but having another option is nice also. It's annoying when we seem to have no plan B when our wing game isn't working when we have the players capable of implementing a plan B.
We will continue to profit from crosses but the idea is that we shouldn't have to rely on them. Part of expressing your attacking abilities with freedom is knowing you don't have to carry a huge share of the burden or let alone all of it. I dont see Young or Valencia as players who can consistently carry such a burden. They're good players no doubt, but I do feel it's unfair on them to have such high expectations to perform beyond their limitations. We've been spoilt with the likes of Giggs, Becks, Ronaldo, Sharpe (before he fell off), Kanchelskis and other great wingers who have done great things for this club.
You can even put Nani in that category of not performing consistently but I didn't put his name with Young or Valencia because I think he's a better a player than both of them.
This is why I think we need to at least have a different option to our 4-2-3-1 with the two wide wingers and one that works well. the diamond looks good and has some potential but I think we'd be better served with a 4-3-3 with wide forwards. We havent used this setup so I could be wrong but I mainly want to see a different option. It's tiring seeing people post on here with the impression that using a different option to a 4-4-2 with our wing play is a bad idea. Too many times it's interpreted as if we should scrap our wing play altogether. I don't really think anyone is saying that. Moving to a more dynamic style doesn't mean we wont use our wing play. I see it meaning we just become less reliant on it and I'm all for that.
We have a lot of weapons in this team and we might as well use them when suitable. So what if it goes against "the Manchester United way"? Sometimes you have to make a few tweaks to the machine to ensure it keeps running efficiently. While I don't think we should abandon our tradition of using wingers as we have done in the past, I do think it is worth to adopting a different style to use when our wingers aren't in form.
I think at the end of the day, we all agree it's limiting to United to overly rely on wingers. Especially the ones we have now. It can work but having another option is nice also. It's annoying when we seem to have no plan B when our wing game isn't working when we have the players capable of implementing a plan B.
We will continue to profit from crosses but the idea is that we shouldn't have to rely on them. Part of expressing your attacking abilities with freedom is knowing you don't have to carry a huge share of the burden or let alone all of it. I dont see Young or Valencia as players who can consistently carry such a burden. They're good players no doubt, but I do feel it's unfair on them to have such high expectations to perform beyond their limitations. We've been spoilt with the likes of Giggs, Becks, Ronaldo, Sharpe (before he fell off), Kanchelskis and other great wingers who have done great things for this club.
You can even put Nani in that category of not performing consistently but I didn't put his name with Young or Valencia because I think he's a better a player than both of them.
This is why I think we need to at least have a different option to our 4-2-3-1 with the two wide wingers and one that works well. the diamond looks good and has some potential but I think we'd be better served with a 4-3-3 with wide forwards. We havent used this setup so I could be wrong but I mainly want to see a different option. It's tiring seeing people post on here with the impression that using a different option to a 4-4-2 with our wing play is a bad idea. Too many times it's interpreted as if we should scrap our wing play altogether. I don't really think anyone is saying that. Moving to a more dynamic style doesn't mean we wont use our wing play. I see it meaning we just become less reliant on it and I'm all for that.
We have a lot of weapons in this team and we might as well use them when suitable. So what if it goes against "the Manchester United way"? Sometimes you have to make a few tweaks to the machine to ensure it keeps running efficiently. While I don't think we should abandon our tradition of using wingers as we have done in the past, I do think it is worth to adopting a different style to use when our wingers aren't in form.
Knew it would be picked up eventually...........
I'm a big Shinji fan myself, and think he should be in our strongest XI, but I didn't really see a 'special' performance per se yesterday. He got the ball and layed it off alright, but I didn't observe him 'spinning away from defenders' or 'dribbling in tight spaces' as some have said. While not bad by any means, I wasn't blown away or anything.
Good to see him back though, and as some have said, I'd like to see him with Rooney and Nani operating behind van Persie.
Good to see him back though, and as some have said, I'd like to see him with Rooney and Nani operating behind van Persie.
I think he was great considering it was his first game in two months. Obviously I hope he'll get better and better with more game time under his belt.
Yea, fair enough. Just that I just watched that video of all of his touces again and felt 'what's so special about that?'
I really like Shinji myself, but I don't think he's Silva-good, I must say. I can't help feel some of our fans have celebrated the type of player we signed a bit more than the quality of the player we signed since we've bought him.
Yeah he didn't do anything amazing really, but he just makes the game look so easy. You can tell its all just very natural to him. For his first game back in two months it was a great performance. Just look at how many games it takes Rooney to get back in to some form after an injury.
Shinji has played better in the Bundesliga than Silva has played in the Premier League, though. It all comes down to whether you rate(and follow) the Bundesliga. United fans who both follow and rate the Bundesliga, jizzed in their pants when we signed Kagawa. Not because of his "type", but because he's one of the best and most promising players in the world around his age in that position.
It's also worth noting that Silva is 3 years older than Kagawa. Silva was one year older when he came to the PL, and it took him half a season to fully adapt. Going by that logic, Kagawa still has a whole year to prove himself
Have patience. Kagawa will be world beater soon enough. I'm almost 100% sure that he will become better than the likes of Silva and Mata.
I've got to agree with this. Some of the things Silva does with that left foot I think are beyond Shinji.
But at the same time, the fact we did sign this type of player is in itself reason to be excited. I also think he can become a very good player, there's no shame in being a bit short of Silva as he's one of the best in the world.
He's a superb footballer with a superb football brain. He is just so intelligent and everything just looks so easy for him. He's an exciting player, though I can't see how we can fit him into his best position when Rooney and RVP are fit, because they will always play. He is going to have to play from the left hand side.
I think the thing that made him look so good yesterday was his decision making. Everytime he got the ball he picked the right pass, and he has great passing. Only misplaced one pass yesterday, and he's just so much different from everyone else on our team.
To be fair, Kagawa was running pre-season like it was nobody's business. If anything, you could say fans got a bit ahead of themselves. I also think those who have seen him at Dortmund know what he's capable of. This is what I think is the most disparaging thing about Kagawa when it comes to how fans view him.
In terms of Silva good, we'll have to wait and see. But he does that type of aura about him. I enjoy watching him play. Such a smart player. Think he'll have a similar progression to Silva when he arrived at the PL. Next season, I expect him to terrorize PL defenses.
bosnian_red, wouldn't you say Kagawa and RVP are very similar in their decision making? Maybe you were talking about something else.
Shinji has played better in the Bundesliga than Silva has played in the Premier League, though. It all comes down to whether you rate(and follow) the Bundesliga. United fans who both follow and rate the Bundesliga, jizzed in their pants when we signed Kagawa. Not because of his "type", but because he's one of the best and most promising players in the world around his age in that position.
It's also worth noting that Silva is 3 years older than Kagawa. Silva was one year older when he came to the PL, and it took him half a season to fully adapt. Going by that logic, Kagawa still has a whole year to prove himself
Have patience. Kagawa will be world beater soon enough. I'm almost 100% sure that he will become better than the likes of Silva and Mata.
This. It was a good performance. Nothing special by his or United's standards, but very good for a player who's effectively still new here, and is coming back from a pretty long injury layoff. Of course he's not been 'better than Silva' for us yet - he's barely played for us. But at Dortmund he has been as good as Silva ever has.
Can't wait to see him get a run of games. People talk a lot about SAF preferring more traditional formations, but he seems to really rate Kagawa, a truly modern type of player. And well he should. Nani-Rooney-Kagawa behind RVP is, on paper, a delicious combination.
EDIT: That said, I don't know about better than Silva and Mata, necessarily. Silva's tailed off a bit for City, but he was really second only to Iniesta in effectiveness for Spain at the Euros. And Mata's barely had a bad game for Chelsea. I massively rate both. But it's a pretty solid bet that Kagawa, barring injury problems, will be up there with both of them.
Some people are seriously underrating Kagawa on here. I'd put money on him being a better player than Silva is now, by the time he's 26. It's only a matter of time before he starts to run the show for us.
There is a reason why SAF unusually started him against West Brom, even though he's only back from injury. He's going to be a very important player for the duration of this season and for many years to come.
There is a reason why SAF unusually started him against West Brom, even though he's only back from injury. He's going to be a very important player for the duration of this season and for many years to come.
Than Silva is right now? Very safe bet. Than Silva at the height of his Man City powers... decent bet. He was, at that point, probably the best player in the league. So it's hardly underrating Kagawa, brilliant as he can be, to deny that the latter is a sure thing.
I can't remember the last time that Silva was at the height of his powers TBH. He's been under-par for a long time now and his finishing capabilities are awful.
Well his slump began almost exactly a year ago. Go back thirteen or fourteen months and he was brilliant.
So the whole 'he's not Silva good' argument is a bit harsh IMO, given how poor Silva his been playing for a long time now and how good Kagawa was for Dortmund. Also, Kagawa is a pretty good finisher when given a chance.
Yeah, fair enough. And yep, definitely a better finisher. At Dortmund he wasn't really quite the same sort of player as Silva. More direct, more about counter-attacking, and more advanced really. His job was all about the final ball; assists and goals. Whereas Silva's is about assists and creative play leading to assists, closer to being a proper midfielder. Although I expect given our wealth of strikers, our more possession-based game, and Rooney, that Kagawa will play a more Silva-esque role for us. It looks that way so far.
I can't wait to see Kagawa after he's had a decent run in the side. It's going to be difficult to fit both him and Rooney in the side without having one of them playing in a less preferred position; but I'm sure we'll work out something.
Yeah, I agree with that. Although, I can see him adding a good few goals a season, once he starts to build some confidence with the team. He scored some very slick goals with Dortmund.
Reckon this is the team I'd pick if everyone was fit for the Madrid game, think it would have a lot of potential because Cleverley and Anderson can drift to the wings if need be, all of the midfield four are really good passers around the box capable of opening teams up, the front three are all good dribblers and pose a decent enough goal threat considering RVP and Rooney bang them in on a pretty consistent basis anyway.
De Gea
Rafael Vidic Evans Evra
Carrick
Cleverley Anderson
Kagawa
Rooney Van Persie
I just want to see one match with him on left side, cutting inside in Silva-style, with Robin and Wayne in more central roles. He plays that role very good for Japan.
Shinji has played better in the Bundesliga than Silva has played in the Premier League, though. It all comes down to whether you rate(and follow) the Bundesliga. United fans who both follow and rate the Bundesliga, jizzed in their pants when we signed Kagawa. Not because of his "type", but because he's one of the best and most promising players in the world around his age in that position.
It's also worth noting that Silva is 3 years older than Kagawa. Silva was one year older when he came to the PL, and it took him half a season to fully adapt. Going by that logic, Kagawa still has a whole year to prove himself
Have patience. Kagawa will be world beater soon enough. I'm almost 100% sure that he will become better than the likes of Silva and Mata.
Some statement that is. Silva is one of the very best in the world of his type. Kagawa is not guaranteed to necessarily be one of the top 5 attacking midfielders in the world. There are a few who are younger than him with arguably more potential in terms of Hazard, Goetze, Isco, Rodriguez, perhaps Oscar.
The thing that makes me wonder if Shinji will be one of the VERY best is that I reckon the composition of his brilliance is a bit too heavily weighted to the intelligence/brain side, but he has less natural ability than Silva and some of the players I just mentioned. Some of Silva's close dribbling and control is breathtaking, and I've yet to see Shinji produce that level of individual magic. Of course, he has several moments of great team play, good vision, quick passing, movement etc, but raw genius with the ball - I say Silva, Isco, Hazard, Goetze, Cazorla etc have a noticable amount more. They are not Robinho's with no brain either, they are also intellingent players.
Yes, I have seen him play for Dortmund before, and I don't doubt he is a very talented player and was very happy with his signing. I am admittedly, if I absolutely had to measure it, more happy with the style of player we signed than anything else though. For me, it's a bit like the way some would celebrate us signing a defensive or box to box midfielder as opposed to the fact that we have necessarily signed one of the best ones in the world.
Don't wanna sound too critical of Shinji, I like him, it's just that I am yet to see him do anything that i don't really expect from a 'good' player in his role/style. I'm sure there are a whole load of favourable stats out there for him, I'm just saying that he hasn't really wowed me as of yet. I'm by no means having a strop/moan/bitch-fit or anything - I just seem to feel he has a lot more to prove than many others do that's all.
The post you're responding to is indeed over the top. But if the bolded line in yours is true, then you've been unlucky in the bits of his Dortmund career which you've seen. 'Good' would be a miserly description of his level for them, I'd say 'exceptional' would be closer. They won it twice in a row, after all, with him an important player in his first season and a key player - possibly the key player in attack - during the second. Obviously there are lots of reasons for their weaker league form this season, injuries being a big one, but his departure has a fair amount to do with it too.
Rozay, I can understand your opinion but how much have you seen of Kagawa, just out of curiosity? He's actually a very good dribbler and has outstanding technique. He can easily produce moments of magic, perhaps differently to the players you've mentioned but magic all the same.
Fair enough. Perhaps I haven't seen enough of him at Dortmund. I've seen the odd game, and some highlights and youtube stuff really, about it. He's looked very good, mature beyond his years too. Never looked to be made of the same stuff Goetze is made of though from what I've seen.
When I say he's 'good', that's not meant to belittle. I mean, Nasri is good. Very good even. How do you feel Shinji, Dortmund Shinji if you like, compares to Nasri at his very best?
He's a lot better than Nasri for me. I don't think there is anything really Nasri can do that Shinji couldn't do as well, if not better. I agree that Goetze is a great talent but to be fair when he was injured, it was Kagawa who lead Dortmund. He has mauled Bayern a few times as well.
I'm curious about how much you have seen from Kagawa? The ball is pretty much glued to his feet when he runs, and he's also a great dribbler. His speed is also underestimated.
There are basically just 3 "critics" that Kagawa have received over the years, and none of them are justified.
1. His first season in Dortmund was actually medicore.
Wrong! Despite being injured half the season(broke a bone inside his foot. Bad luck.), he ended up in Bundesliga Team of the Year! If you get into that team, despite only playing 50%, then you must be nothing short of brilliant/world class.
2. He lacks stamina.
Wrong! When Kagawa took the beep-test in Manchester United, his scores were the best since David Beckham.
3. He's too small and weak for the PL.
Wrong! This point speaks for itself though. Silva, Mata and Modric are the counter-evidence.
I find it funny that you point out that Kagawa "only" has intelligence, because that is arguably the most important part of the modern game. Xavi and Iniesta are prime examples of this. It is because of the intelligence-part that I rate Kagawa so highly. Quick and skillful players aren't rare. Quick and skillful players with Kagawa's intelligence on the other hand...
I've written this many times before, but I never get tired of menioning it:
"During my whole life as a football supporter, I've never been much of a transfer muppet. Whenever the transfer window opens, I'm cool as ice. I merely wait for Fergie's decisions, and trust him 100%. I've never really cared about transfers. But there are 2 players that has made my blood boil with excitement. 2 players that I've wanted Fergie to sign, no matter how high the price. Ronaldinho and Kagawa. The former chose Barca, sadly, but at least my wish came through with Kagawa."
So yeah, it is safe to say that I rate Kagawa. Obviously I'm not a football expert or anything like that, but I find that I'm seldom wrong about the players I get really excited about.
Well having just read through this page, I hope Mad Winger is right.
Didn't really see Kagawa at Dortmund so can't really comment, but I too am a bit skeptical of whether his natural/raw ability on the ball is right up there with the likes of Messi, Ronaldo, Hazard, Silva.
Didn't really see Kagawa at Dortmund so can't really comment, but I too am a bit skeptical of whether his natural/raw ability on the ball is right up there with the likes of Messi, Ronaldo, Hazard, Silva.
I don't think some people are reading what Rozay is saying. He clearly rates Kagawa but he's saying compared to the likes of Gotze, Cazorla, Hazard etc he has less individual ability. That doesn't mean he's not very good or won't be great.
Kagawa was good and tidy vs West Brom but no better than a standard Rooney performance behind the striker imo.
Kagawa was good and tidy vs West Brom but no better than a standard Rooney performance behind the striker imo.
We do. Only the dumb ones don't.
Mad Winger is suggeseting his individual ability on the ball is a level above what most of us perceieve it to be - of course it's early days but just how some of us feel, I guess.
I think it's important to remember that Kagawa is only 23 years old. He still has a lot of time to improve before he reaches his prime.
It's sick to think that his professional career pretty much started 2 and a half years ago. In that time, he has won the Bundesliga twice, the German Cup once, the Asian Cup once, been named Asian player of the year, been a part of Bundesliga Team of the Year 2011, and he's now playing regularly for Manchester United(whenever he's not injured).
There is no point comparing him to Ronaldo and Messi, because those two are on a totally different planet. But I will say this; at age 23, Kagawa is a lot more impressive and promising than Iniesta, Silva and Cazorla was at the same age.
There is some class about this player but it's frustrating that he hasn't showed (mainly due to that shitty injury) how good he truly on a longer basis.
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