Bingo. Sometimes the most obvious and simple solution is the correct one.
Shinji Kagawa
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik (@Rood) is joined by CEO Duncan Drasdo and Financial Director Andy Green from the Manchester United Supporters Trust for a special episode on all things behind the scenes at Old Trafford including a brief history of MUST and their aims today, views on INEOS and Sir Jim Ratcliffe so far, and the Old Trafford regeneration.
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Bingo. Sometimes the most obvious and simple solution is the correct one.
I would love nothing more than to be proven wrong on this thing, so I hope you both are right. But until Kagawa starts to be as influential as he was in Dortmund, I'm gonna stand stubbornly in the corner and say that he's "lacking" because he's not playing in his best position.
I have a feeling things are going to change for the better one way or another, whether he continues as a winger or takes Rooney's position. But right now, I'm just happy to see him in the starting XI. I get disappointed every time he's not there, as he's our most exciting player to watch by far. Fergie can play him in defense for all I care, as long as he's on the field.
I would love to see him play in a central position more too M.W but tbh this club isn't Dortmund, there is just not the same level of movement and fluidity of football.So moving him centrally will not automatically equal him being a top class player.
I'm just saying that just because it worked for Dortmund, doesn't mean it'll work for United him playing there.Just trying to understand the reasoning behind SAF's decisions regarding him so far.Who knows maybe next season he'll play him there, move Rooney closer to RVP etc etc ..
I'm just saying that just because it worked for Dortmund, doesn't mean it'll work for United him playing there.Just trying to understand the reasoning behind SAF's decisions regarding him so far.Who knows maybe next season he'll play him there, move Rooney closer to RVP etc etc ..
He's an excellent player, and anybody who doesn't recognise that - including SAF - doesn't know what he's talking about. 
While this is very true, I still think it's worth a shot. I don't think it's a coincidence that most of Kagawa's sweetest moments for us have appeared centrally on the attacking third.
One thing I think we all can agree on, is that Kagawa probably wont play worse as an AM. And that is why I want him there ASAP. His level wont drop, but it might rise after a few games. And if it does and Kagawa once against becomes the AM maestro that he is supposed to be, then it was worth the "gamble". If not.. Well, he'll probably still have done decent at the very worst, and we're still United. If Kagawa doesn't carry us, someone else will.
I'm still convinced that Kagawa doesn't play there because he still has time to evolve. Not because Fergie wants to turn him into a winger.
It's not Alex Ferguson's job to get the best out of one player it's to get the best from the team. Playing Kagawa in the middle means not playing a better player. My main problem with Kagawa out wide is that it's his game to move infield. Countless times we had no option on the left. He needs to find the balance between holding that position and getting involved in the middle. Last night was probably one of his better games in that regard. It may have been even better had Rooney and Van Persie not been so shit.
You don't think he suits playing in attacking midfield more than the wing?
Whether or not he should get to play centrally is another question but I don't think there is any doubt you'll get the best out of him in AM, as you do with other similar type players.
That's not what I said at all Theon.When I say playing on the wing, I didn't mean it like a Ashley Young or Valencia type performance.He starts on the wing, he links up with Evra, he drifts inside, he has more freedom.
That's not the game of a winger but more of an attacking midfielder who still spends time on the wing
It's already been pointed out that other, similar players usually started their PL players on the left side of midfield. Silva and Modric being the obvious examples. That helps them adjust to the pace of the league without putting too much responsibility on them to be the main creative force on their debut season.
I fail to see what Kagawa has done so far that merits special treatment.
I fail to see what Kagawa has done so far that merits special treatment.
Ayee you did mate, you said here you don't need to play him in the middle to get the best out of him when I think you certainly do.
How Kagawa plays a wide role isn't really relevant, we know he doesn't and won't play on the left like Valencia or Young and noone has said otherwise so I don't understand what you're getting at. He will play on the left similar to how Mata or Silva did, yet both of them are better in the middle which is what I am saying.
Yeah I don't have any issues with this view at all. Whether or not Kagawa deserves or has earned the right to come infield is going to be down to opinion, how you think Rooney is playing in that role, how good Kagawa's form is, where we would have to shift Rooney, who could go on the left etc etc. Personally I would give him a run there instead of Rooney, but it's not a clear cut thing.
What isn't questionable though IMO is that playing Kagawa centrally will get better performances out of him, the same way it did for Silva or Modric.
He's an excellent player, and anybody who doesn't recognise that - including SAF - doesn't know what he's talking about.
Fergie signed him, so not much to worry about there
The thing is. I think we should play Rooney and RVP as a proper two up front in most games. I think not doing so stunts our play. That doesn't leave room for an 'AM' in the middle, unless we play the sp€#%#ic diamond, which doesn't really work as a regular setup. I don't like RVP getting isolated up top, it doesn't suit his style. He needs to be able to dovetail with a strike partner so that he can drop deep and get involved in the play more, get down the channels. Maybe I am old fashioned but I think we have two of the best strikers in the world and we aren't able to play them as a proper partnership because of the fragility of our midfield. Kagawa doesn't really help with that.
So I see him as principally having to play as a wide player and in significant danger of Hlebification, where a really good player just doesn't do enough damage to the opposition because he can't hurt teams enough from wide positions and breaks the shape of the side too much if he keeps drifting inside.
Clearly in some games we could play him behind the striker but I'm just not sure we will get the best out of either of our strikers if we do that. Funnily enough I think he would work better with Rooney than RVP though, as there is more mobility there.
Once we solve the midfield issue it might well become less of an issue and he could do very well on the left, with RVP able to drift over there a fair amount.
So I see him as principally having to play as a wide player and in significant danger of Hlebification, where a really good player just doesn't do enough damage to the opposition because he can't hurt teams enough from wide positions and breaks the shape of the side too much if he keeps drifting inside.
Clearly in some games we could play him behind the striker but I'm just not sure we will get the best out of either of our strikers if we do that. Funnily enough I think he would work better with Rooney than RVP though, as there is more mobility there.
Once we solve the midfield issue it might well become less of an issue and he could do very well on the left, with RVP able to drift over there a fair amount.
I don't think Kagawa starting wide is the problem, Hazard and Mata invariably start wide for Chelsea, as do Nasri and Silva for City, but its how we bring him in to the game.
At those clubs they play much more narrow and typically with much more movement amongst the front 4. That means Hazard can drive in and maybe Mata will pull wide or oscar. Or they might end up very close to each other and play off one another.
For us though we're usually quite rigid, we look to keep our wide players as far out as we can and the strikers in the middle and for someone like Kagawa that isn't ideal. He's usually too far back to have the sort of impact he's accustomed too. He's improving there as he's settled in to England and hopefully we'll see him push on from there.
There's been some encouraging things in recent times where you can see that he's been given a bit more room to drift inside and at times you can see Rooney pull wide too cover him. Hopefully going forward we could see him drift in at times and then Rooney maybe make a diagonal run inside. At the moment they're swapping roles but then holding their position.
And in our formation it could work quite well, kagawa drifting from the left and then the guy on the right holding his width, typically in space and available as an out ball. We could get that from a fullback but with the winger it means we don't over commit and also can get a proper attacking player in a dangerous area.
I wouldn't say that it's about the team understanding Kagawa or anything like that. It's just about fitting in that sort of player into a team that hasn't really used many of that ilk before, it'll take time but the signs are looking good. I'm still holding out seeing Kagawa, nani, rooney and rvp lining up a few times, think it could be awesome, though looking more and more unlikely with nani probably going, but still those 3 have a lot of potential.
At those clubs they play much more narrow and typically with much more movement amongst the front 4. That means Hazard can drive in and maybe Mata will pull wide or oscar. Or they might end up very close to each other and play off one another.
For us though we're usually quite rigid, we look to keep our wide players as far out as we can and the strikers in the middle and for someone like Kagawa that isn't ideal. He's usually too far back to have the sort of impact he's accustomed too. He's improving there as he's settled in to England and hopefully we'll see him push on from there.
There's been some encouraging things in recent times where you can see that he's been given a bit more room to drift inside and at times you can see Rooney pull wide too cover him. Hopefully going forward we could see him drift in at times and then Rooney maybe make a diagonal run inside. At the moment they're swapping roles but then holding their position.
And in our formation it could work quite well, kagawa drifting from the left and then the guy on the right holding his width, typically in space and available as an out ball. We could get that from a fullback but with the winger it means we don't over commit and also can get a proper attacking player in a dangerous area.
I wouldn't say that it's about the team understanding Kagawa or anything like that. It's just about fitting in that sort of player into a team that hasn't really used many of that ilk before, it'll take time but the signs are looking good. I'm still holding out seeing Kagawa, nani, rooney and rvp lining up a few times, think it could be awesome, though looking more and more unlikely with nani probably going, but still those 3 have a lot of potential.
Yeah, because the team is playing so amazing right now...
Aye, the season has been a total disaster.
Aye, the season has been a total disaster.
How you managed to get that from what I said, I will never know. But good for you!
Said that some time ago. If memory served right, Rooney and Park also worked well before. Such a shame we just used Park as a hard worker winger, where his best position and playing style was similar to Kagawa.
I don't understand this.Are you agreeing or disagreeing with me ?
If that's not what you meant than we're both missing the point.
You can't look at the last few games in isolation. We've got where we are with Fergie using Kagawa as sparingly as he has. This has combined an incredibly succesful league campaign with clear signs of improvement in Kagawa's own game.
But hey, what does Fergie know about getting the balance right between developing individual players and ensuring he gets the best out of his team?
I feel in spite of results this team hasn't been at its best this season. We've managed to grind out lots of results which in accumulation is going to win us the league, comfortably, but in terms of actual performance level there's plenty of room for improvement. For one I'd like us to drop the ancient winger-based tactics and move to a fast possession based football that we should be capable of (we've got lots of players who could thrive in such style, Cleverley and Welbeck being prime examples).
There's been glimpses of that football over the last two seasons. The youngsters aren't quite there yet though. You can see where Fergie wants to go with the team and Kagawa is obviously a big part of his plans. I just think people are being impatient and not showing enough faith in Fergie to manage the transition, whilst ensuring we still challenge on all fronts. Something he has a track record of doing better than any other manager on the planet.
It's a great transition considering that we could well be heading for a 7th title in a row right now with just a little bit of luck (in 2010 we'd have probably done much better against Chelsea with Rooney in the team and last year was obviously a big bottling job coupled with City's amazing comeback in the last game that wouldn't have happened had Bolton won at Stoke). Compare that to the 2004-06 period when we were genuinely awful all over the place and barely had any players deserving of being here. We've been a machine this season no doubt but it's going to take far more time to transform the team into something better, I agree.
To be quite honest, I'm not really that interested in the discussion of how Fergie has used Kagawa. He's used him as much as he could so far, considering injuries and his issues acclimatising.
I just found that poster's comment about Fergie's job being to make United play better, not just one player very odd. Surely using players where they are most efficient would in turn make the team play better?
If SAF can get the best out of Man United without playing Kagawa centrally then so be it.I don't think he'll care and I sure won't.Will he be better playing behind the main striker ? Based on his Dortmund performances, probably yeah. Is it an urgent need to do so ? Not really.
While I agree that Rooney overall probably is a better player as of this exact moment, he is still not a better AM.
Playing Rooney makes sense because he's probably in his prime age now, and he's been around for a long time, and he always gives us a good goal/assist ratio. But if people want us to play Rooney behind RVP, then I don't want to hear any complaining when our football lacks "fluidity" or "control down the center". I don't want to hear complaints about our midfield being dire, or that we rely too much on width. Because guess what: that's what happens when we don't play a proper AM!
Basically: you can't complain about us playing unsexy football and then bench the only sexy player we have. That's just hypocritical, unless you're a crazy muppet or have an agenda against Kagawa.
Note: I'm not saying that you're one of the people who complains about our football. I just wanted to point this out to everyone reading.
The general football being dire has more to do with the poor wing play and ever changing midfielder next to Carrick.I think it has little to do with Rooney playing behind RVP.
Yes, this season our wing play has been the main problem. But that is because Carrick is so ridiculously good now. He basically carries the midfield on his own. In the previous seasons though, there's always been an empty hole between the midfield line and the opponents sixteen-yard box, where we've lacked fluidity. You can blame our midfield for being too static etc, but at the end of the day things would be much easier if an AM was there to help them linking up. People have wanted us to play more like Barca, Dortmund, and even City or Chelsea. But that is never gonna happen with Rooney in the hole and too much width. We need our own Iniesta/Silva/Mata to do so. And now that we finally have one, it opens up new possibilities that we didn't have before.
Our classic formation is all about giving our strikers a lot of freedom. I think that is the reason for Fergie always putting so much value on strikers and stocking up on them. When you play with less width and only one actual striker, then there's a lot of pressure on the team working as a unit in the attacking third, and a lot of responsibility falls on the lone striker's shoulders. But when it works(Dortmund for instance), we get to see the most entertaining football there is. The quality doesn't have to drop either.
Fergie said in an interview that he never expected to get RVP. His early bid was more of a formality. Obviously he was gonna give it a chance, even if it was against the odds. Kagawa was definitely headed for Rooney's position. RVP might have stalled the process, but it's bound to happen in the future.
I agree that Kagawa was headed there but maybe RVP's signing has altered SAF plans altogether.Either that or Rooney will soon leave
, I don't know tbh this is why I cannot wait for next season.How the team will play, will there be another midfielder to improve the balance and improve the linking up with the likes of Rooney and Kagwa ? How will Kagawa play after being more settled in with the team ?He definitely changed his plan. There's no way we're not gonna start a 29(soon 30) year old PL topscorer in his prime. At the same time, Rooney has been the heart of United's attack for ages now, so dropping him is impossible as well.
Kagawa is young and still developing as a player. Rooney and RVP are about as good as they can get. The latter is soon 30, so his end is getting nearer and nearer. Kagawa can wait a bit, Rooney and RVP cannot.
In the meantime, we might as well teach Kagawa how to play as a winger. After all, Fergie loves rotation. Even if Kagawa were to get Rooney's position in a few seasons, there's no way he wont be tossed out on the wing occasionally.
I would like to see Fergie giving them interchanging roles, both have the intelligence to do so and Rooney played on the left before as well
That's a silly concept to think that sticking them on the wing 'adjusts them to the pace of the PL'.
Do you watch much Bundesliga or even Kagawa in the Champions League for Dortmund? The lad can cope with anything this league can offer him quite easily.
If you've failed to see what he's done in his career to so far to warrant him being played in his true place then you probably need to do your homework on him a little more. He's a quality player & the more we piss him away on the wing, we lose the quality he offers down the centre.
As much as I am critical of the Premier League there is no doubt that the lesser teams in the Prem offer a fantastic physical challenge to the better teams, more so than other leagues... there is no doubt that Kagawa found the move physically demanding, he's admitted in interviews that he is really focused on upping his game and earning the right to play in the first team... so as good as Dortmund are, Kagawa did feel he had to become stronger to play in this league.
One explanation could be that due to the fact we're more static as a side, there is less chance for a smaller player like Kagawa to pass and move/avoid physical confrontations, so if he is to play as a support striker or number 10, he is going to sometimes recieve the ball back to goal and it is in these situations where he was struggling at times this season and the pace of the game was passing him by a little... he looks much more dynamic at the moment and stronger too, so by next season.. no reason why he can't feature more centrally.
One explanation could be that due to the fact we're more static as a side, there is less chance for a smaller player like Kagawa to pass and move/avoid physical confrontations, so if he is to play as a support striker or number 10, he is going to sometimes recieve the ball back to goal and it is in these situations where he was struggling at times this season and the pace of the game was passing him by a little... he looks much more dynamic at the moment and stronger too, so by next season.. no reason why he can't feature more centrally.
Yeah, because the team is playing so amazing right now...
And trying to get the best out of one player rather than focusing on the team will guarantee much better performances? If I used smilies I'd throw a couple in here but I don't. They're moronic.
Getting a shot off in a tight area that hits the post creates a dangerous situation. It is an assist and I think these kind of things always have been?
Those assists attributions (the ones off the post) are ridiculous IMO, an assist should count only if there is a real intent to pass the ball.
Sort out the midfield and it wont matter where you place Kagawa behind the main striker. For he, Rooney and RVP would finally have the freedom to do what Tevez, Ronaldo and Rooney did in 2008. Inter change at will...
In the FIFA Technical Study Group's report on the 1986 World Cup, the authors calculated for the first time unofficial statistics for assists, developing the following criteria:[3]
An assist was awarded to the player who had given the last pass to the goalscorer.
In addition, also the last but two holder of the ball could get an assist provided that his action had decisive importance for the goal .
After goals from rebounds those players were awarded an assist who had shot on target.
After goals scored on penalty or by a directly converted free-kick the fouled player received a point.
In case that the goalscorer had laid on the goal for himself (dribble, solo run), no assists were awarded.
No assists were awarded, either, if the goalscorer took advantage of a missed pass by an opponent.
Most commonly, an assist is credited to a player for passing or crossing the ball to the scorer. It may also be awarded to a player whose shot rebounds (off a defender, goalkeeper or goalpost) to a teammate who scores; or to a player who wins a penalty kick for another player to convert. An attacking player may be awarded an assist for contributing to an own goal.[
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