Thank you for saying it right
Tonight proves why Mourinho should never manage at OT.
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik (@Rood) is joined by CEO Duncan Drasdo and Financial Director Andy Green from the Manchester United Supporters Trust for a special episode on all things behind the scenes at Old Trafford including a brief history of MUST and their aims today, views on INEOS and Sir Jim Ratcliffe so far, and the Old Trafford regeneration.
Mourinho has done very a well IMO to get a heavily divided dressing room to a European semi final.
Lucky to get them that far. We were well in control before Nani got his marching orders.
Last night was probably their best display I have seen from them in ages.
The result could have very well gone their way on another day with such a performance.
Especially in the first 30 minutes Reals passions was quite passionate I thought, as well as after the 1-0.
The result could have very well gone their way on another day with such a performance.
Especially in the first 30 minutes Reals passions was quite passionate I thought, as well as after the 1-0.
Because United turn up for every big game, ever?
There's no doubting Mou's ability to inspire his players. It's not debatable.
Do you think Madrid looked inspired over the 2 legs?
They were abstract to say the least in the first leg. They seemed more than up for it last night though. Certainly for the majority of the game.
This. Even if Madrid were completely inept last night, its not like we have never seen the same at OT, if you care to cast your mind back to last season. You cant judge Mourinho by a single game, and on a broader sample his CL record is pretty good.
If we arent going to have him, which Im sure we wont as he will go to Chelsea, let it be because the man is a self-righteous wanker who would view us as nothing more than another impressive line on his CV.
Sir Alex Ferguson showed an inability to deal with an unexpected red card. Fergie out! He's tactically inept and can't motivate his players from the touchline.
I disagree, I think he has huge respect for United and SAF, back when he was with us there was a sense of respect between the two sides and managers, now theres always some controversy.
Do you think we look inspired in every big game?
He cultivates that perception I think Rob. He has a clear eye on his legacy, so he clearly wants to manage the most prestigious clubs, but that is all about the legend he will one day be I reckon. Not that I hold that against him particularly. I have no particular hostility to the man, he is a mercenary, just as most players are. If he did come to United I would console myself with the thought that he is probably the most qualified manager for the job. I dont think he would rally have United in his soul, but then will anyone, post-SAF? Probably not.
Either way, I think he will go to Chelsea now and that will be the end of it, I doubt he would come to us from you. I think his next move will be long term. Which is great news for Chelsea.
Either way, I think he will go to Chelsea now and that will be the end of it, I doubt he would come to us from you. I think his next move will be long term. Which is great news for Chelsea.
We've not played with any tempo for about 2 months now, first half against Villa aside. And even saying that that would be falling for the caf's myth we were in scintillating form pre-Madrid, obviously forgetting the games against Southampton, Fulham etc. Do you think we look inspired in our last 2 Champions League finals? In our FA Cup semi with City? Or the title decider last season? How about the Chelsea quarter finals this season?
Madrid undoubtedly look inspired last night. The lunacy of your post has lead to some defending them, but the general dislike of Mourinho/Madrid seems to have convinced everyone the game was a lot more even than it was last night, Madrid were the better side (as you'd expect really) and I don't think the scare they give Dortmund was in any way flattering..
How does that make you better though? Schweinsteger hit the post. Did Cech save that? Is penalty shootouts really a barometer to say who is the better team?
I'm not saying it takes away the fact you are Champions of Europe. You are. But unlike in the domestic league, I think it's fair to question if you are the best team in Europe in a cup format where there's the element of luck. Some things go your way and others do not. In the league, such things usually even out over the course of the season.
You can be dominated by the other team and still win. So by your logic, if Wigan beat you, they're not inferior?
Highly doubtful that any manager will remain at Chelsea more than two years or so under Abramovich. IF anything, Mourinho going to Chelsea would be a stepping stone to position himself for the United job.
I was talking about this with someone in another Mourinho thread just now.
I can see where you are coming from. But I can see the craziness of Chelsea coming to an end at some point, and who better to finally settle with than Mourinho?
You might be right though.
If you are dominate but lose the game then unless you were cheated out of the win by outside means you were inferior.
If Wigan beat us fair and square then in that game they were the better team.
Theres no way of knowing who the 'best team in Europe' actually is since not every team in Europe plays in the CL, and its a pretty ambiguous term. The only thing you can say for certain is that last season we were the best team in the champions league.
I believe Cech did get a touch to Sweins penalty didnt he? and if he didn't then its a mark down for Bayern for not hitting the target with a penalty, that's not luck, its Sweinsteiger not scoring a penalty. Luck would be if Pigeon shit on his face as he was running up to the ball and missing his kick.
The league determines who is the better team in the league, but again its up for debate to use the term 'best team' in general, as other things affect league seasons, such as having a better manager, better coach and less/more injuries over time. The only real way to determine the 'best team in Europe as perfectly as possible' would be if every team in Europe played each other say 10 times at a neutral venue, but thats impracticle so you can only say that the winning team were the best team in that competition. However if Real Madrid had won it this season there would have been some cause to claim otherwise as they possibly would not have gone through but for an incorrect Refereeing decision.
Penalties test technique under pressure. Chelsea's was better than Bayern, thus they deserved to win the CL final.
It's straightforward really.
It's straightforward really.
Perhaps. I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. Penalties to me is a strange barometer of saying one team was better than another because it's not just technique under pressure. You can hit a great penalty but the keeper guesses the right way and saves it. On another day, he might not.
Dont mind me Rob. I'm old and stubborn and while I do try to be more open-minded, this is one of the situations where I am not. For the life of me, I can't look at that Chelsea side and say "yes, they were undoubtedly the best team in the Champions League". I don't mind saying you deserved it though.
Sir Alex says in cup competitions you need an element of luck (something going your way). I happen to think the same and after watching for so many years, it's hard for me to see it otherwise. You don't have to be the better team to win the game. You just have to score more than your opponent. That's how I feel anyway.
And Rob you obviously have a different view of luck than I do.
I'm only using the official definition of 'luck'. I can be a bit pedantic like that as I feel luck indicates we won it by false means or cheating, whereas in fact we won it in the face of incredible adversity. I used the word fortunate before to describe it better, because in another game Barcelona might not have passed up those chances.
With our penalty saves though a lot was made of the fact that for all the penalties, including the outfield ones, Cech guessed the right way, you would wager that it was more likely he was playing well than just happened to guess right on every occasion.
You cant score more than your opponent and not be the better team ( unless they are offside or otherwise scored illegally) unless the object of the game has changed whereby possession, passing, skills and domination account more than goals.
If the object of the game is to score more goals than the opponent and you do so legitimately, you are the better team, regardless of possession stats, penalties saved/missed or chances missed.
There is simply no other way.
Okay mate, if you feel that way.
No, he's objectively correct. The better team is the team that wins the match, and scoring more goals than the opposition is the only way to do that.
Now, you can argue about the more attractive team or the more exciting team, but the better team always wins, bar only interventions outside of the rules - refereeing mistakes, beach balls on the pitch etc.
Aside from that lone caveat, I also don't believe in luck in football. Were Chelsea 'lucky' that Barcelona missed a number of very presentable chances? No, of course not, because if Barcelona were better then they wouldn't have missed those chances. Similarly your example about Schweinsteiger hitting the post has nothing to do with luck: if he had shot better, he would have scored instead of hitting the post.
Now obviously judging whether Chelsea or Barca/Bayern was the 'better team' over a longer duration than that specific 90 minutes (or 120 or whatever) allows you to bring other things in for consideration - other matches that season, for example. But over the course of the match, the best team is the team that wins.
I feel incredibly happy that I know 100% I have got through ( if you didnt think that way already) to one person at last!
I feel incredibly happy that I know 100% I have got through ( if you didnt think that way already) to one person at last!
That sounds incredibly gay, Rob
Can it be denied that Real missed several glorious chances...and that converting on any one of them would have sent them through? Even the greatest managers on Earth can't do much about missed chances by top strikers. I'm open to rethinking Jose as the succesor to Sir Alex, but not because of how Real went out to Dortmund.
If you define "the better team" as "the one that wins the match" then obviously "the better team" is "the one that won the match".
But if you define "the better team" as "the team more likely to win in a hypothetical match" or "the team more likely to win had the match been replayed" or "the team more likely to win the most games had they played 100 times" or anything else really, then thats not the case.
Personally I find arguing that Chelsea are a better team than Barcelona because they beat them last time they played extremely tedious.
That sounds incredibly gay, Rob
Oh be nice.
Perhaps from now on we need to write "if we forget the goals" at the start of each sentence.
"If we forget the goals Bayern were still the better team tonight".
"If we forget the goals, Chelsea never looked like scoring in the last 300 minutes of champions league football".
"If we forget the goals, Dortmund just about looked like the better team".
Tedious.
"If we forget the goals Bayern were still the better team tonight".
"If we forget the goals, Chelsea never looked like scoring in the last 300 minutes of champions league football".
"If we forget the goals, Dortmund just about looked like the better team".
Tedious.
No-one would argue Chelsea are a better side overall than Barca, the argument is and always has been that they were the better team in the CL last season.
Although it must be said again, we have a positive record vs Barca in the past decade.
I guess so Brightonian. When you've somehow nicked a goal to win a game you certainly didn't deserve to win, it's not easy to say 'we were the better team'. Is winning a game by an own goal mean you are the better team? I know I am being extremely pedantic but when you've spent a career looking for nuance where others see black and white, it's hard to take some statements and see how it's justifiable in all cases.
But the goals are what define the better team in any game, so you cant forget them.
Yes because how did the own goal come about, was it a mistake from a defender, which would equal minus points for the defending team? Was it good pressure from the attacking team?
Or was it deflected off the Referee, which would define luck.
I dont think we're getting anywhere in this discussion Rob. I know where you stand and you know where I stand.
Let's be serious, amigos.
The "better" team does not always win the game. Does anyone actually disagree with this?
The "better" team does not always win the game. Does anyone actually disagree with this?
Mourinho is going to be phenomenal for Chelsea. The Real Madrid job is a poisoned chalice and Mourinho probably was not allowed to sell certain established Spanish internationals that he might have wanted to sell!
the Chelsea connection may just be cover.....
This is starting to piss me off. Football is played on the fecking pitch, not in a computer simulation where you can roll the dice a thousand times and see who is most likely to win.
Chelsea were the better team on the night, against Bayern, against Barcelona, because they put the ball in the net more times. They didn't hit the bar, or have 75 shots saved by Valdes or Neuer, but they hit the goal.
Talking about "forgetting the goals"...
ChristThis is starting to piss me off. Football is played on the fecking pitch, not in a computer simulation where you can roll the dice a thousand times and see who is most likely to win.
Chelsea were the better team on the night, against Bayern, against Barcelona, because they put the ball in the net more times. They didn't hit the bar, or have 75 shots saved by Valdes or Neuer, but they hit the goal.
Talking about "forgetting the goals"...
They were in their hoop!