I know. Mental, isn't it?
Pep Guardiola's Bayern
- Thread starter Raoul
- Start date
-
In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik (@Rood) is joined by CEO Duncan Drasdo and Financial Director Andy Green from the Manchester United Supporters Trust for a special episode on all things behind the scenes at Old Trafford including a brief history of MUST and their aims today, views on INEOS and Sir Jim Ratcliffe so far, and the Old Trafford regeneration.
- Status
I don't really think that signing Thiago poses a problem atm it's more that Guardiola is completely changing winning team which a lot of people aren't really happy with. Of course it's imo too soon to say if he will fail by doing this or will succeed but of course people are always skeptical if you completely change something that was working close to perfectly.
I wouldn't have changed a thing from last years side. It's like being on football manager, winning the quadruple and buying 4 players for the sake of it. It always goes to shit.
They'll still win the league but an upset in Europe could be on the cards. If I was a manager playing against Bayern I'd be delighted if he was trying some 1-3-1-1-3 formation in a quarter final.
They'll still win the league but an upset in Europe could be on the cards. If I was a manager playing against Bayern I'd be delighted if he was trying some 1-3-1-1-3 formation in a quarter final.
Not even Guardiola would leave out a player of the team just to experiment?
He doesn't experiment. He just succeeds.
I'm sorry but there's underrating Puyol and just completely missing the type of player he is purely because he played for Barcelona. He's decent with the ball at his feet - probably about the same as Vidic, who is also often underrated on that front because he's though of as a physical ball-winning sort of CB. But he's nothing more than decent with it. Martinez is very technically gifted, and a superb passer of the ball. Puyol is really nothing like him, Pique is.
How did you come to that conclusion? He is nothing more than average in both departments.
Watching this just makes me even more frustrated that we didn't get Martinez last summer.
I suspect he's watched a little more of him than you have seeing as he's German.
He can be from Jupiter for all I care, if he really thinks Martinez is not technically accomplished/an excellent passer he's either blind or stupid.
Gotta love youtube video scouts. 
He is an accomplished passer I never doubted that. My point was just that he is not on the level of a Busquets, Schweinsteiger or let alone Xavi.
Maybe it's just due to having different standards in what we see as an excellent passer but as far as I'm concerned he is not in the top bracket of players when it comes to opening play.
You compared him to Puyol, which sounds like a completely different point to me.
He's as food a passer as Schweinsteiger and Busquets, obviously.
No one is as good a passer as Xavi at present, so that's a moot point.
No one is as good a passer as Xavi at present, so that's a moot point.
Nothing better than a food passer.
Now, there's the solution to the Anderson situation...!
I compared him to Puyol because his attitude reminds me of him and not because I believe his a carbon copy of Puyol. On top of that I think a lot of people on here really underestimate Puyol's overall game. Brigthonian acted like it was an insult to compare him to Puyol when it was clearly meant as a compliment which I thought was clear after mentioning that I think he is/was one of Barcas most important players.
Martinez can play a good ball and even contribute to attacks by going himself but his standout ability remains his great tackling ability and defensive strength fueled by his tireless work ethic.
Non the less he is a player that in terms of ball distribution and passing ability is a level below players like Busquets, Schweinsteiger, Xabi Alonso or Carrick. If you think I'm blind or an idiot for thinking that, so be it but I guess I'm in good company considering that neiter Guardiola is willing to play him in that position nor Del Bosque thinks it's worth to give him a chance in that position even when Xabi Alonso is not available.
Edit: By the way I think any further discussion about Martinez skills should be held in his thread and not in here.
I think that playing Schweinsteiger (in his favourite position apparently...) instead of Martinez in front of the back 4 would be a bad decision from Guardiola. Martinez is simply better for that role. Too good really, and big reason for Bayern's succes in europe last season.
this... "Martinez can play a good ball and even contribute to attacks by going himself but his standout ability remains his great tackling ability and defensive strength fueled by his tireless work ethic."
this... "Martinez can play a good ball and even contribute to attacks by going himself but his standout ability remains his great tackling ability and defensive strength fueled by his tireless work ethic."
He isn´t. Actually, out of all CM/DM options Bayern Munich has right now (him, Schweinsteiger, Gustavo, Kroos), he is the weakest in the passing department. He does not have the eye or range of Schweinsteiger, the composure of Kroos or accuracy of Gustavo. He does have undeniable strengths (tackling, positioning, timing, etc.), which make him a world class DM, but his general technique and passing are not really outstanding. I dunno, if I would call them average, but I get your point. He sure as hell falls off in that department to Schweinsteiger, but then again, one of the greatest strenghts of the pair was, that they had a clear understanding with each other about what each of them does. Martinez´ part was keeping the defensive formation stable, while Schweinsteiger was responsible for build up play. The difference in completed passes between them was quite large (about 30 per match), not even counting key passes.
Martinez´ current problem is, that he functions the best as defensive part of a CM/DM pair. Guardiola on the other hand likes to play with basically one anchor in the CM to outnumber the opposing defense by having one extra midfielder. The problem with that is that it puts enourmous pressure at the CM. There is a reason, why most teams play with a two men midfield to split the responsibilities. It is for me the hardest position in the whole system. There are only a handful of players in the world, who can play that on the top level, because it takes a really well rounded midfielder to do that. Busquets is one of them, which why he is so crucial for Barcelona, others are Alonso or Carrick. Bayern right now has one of these players: Schweinsteiger. The rest of them are either too defensively (Martinez, Gustavo) or lack the necessary defensive stability (Thiago, Kroos) to make it work on a high level.
The true consequence of the system change for Martinez would actually be being benched. However, Martinez is still their record transfer and performed on world class level in the last season. So, Guardiola keeps him in the first 11, but pulls him back into the center defense. This may be the best political decision, because neither Dante nor Boateng have the same status as Martinez, but it actually makes matters worse, because he does not only sacrafice some of the impact of the latter, but also defensive stability because the first two are undoubtly better CB. Looking into the future, this may become even more fun, when Badstuber eventually returns.
Things already start to brew and the season has not even properly started.
Graham Hunter was on The Press Pass earlier to offer a Spanish perspective on Raphael Honigstein's article in the Observer, Hunter felt it summed up why Bayern Munich and the media associated with it can be a laughing stock. The audio isn't yet up on the Talksport website but it should be later this evening.
http://www.theguardian.com/football/blog/2013/aug/03/bayern-munich-pep-guardiola
http://www.theguardian.com/football/blog/2013/aug/03/bayern-munich-pep-guardiola
It's also a level above players like Sven Bender, Khedira and on a comparable level to Vidal, imo. Martinez could easily play a brilliant box 2 box midfielder, he played as a number 10 for a while at Bilbao before Bielsa took over, if I remember correctly. Most of the time, he's just used in a different way because of everything else he offers. I don't even think his tackling is that brilliant, he commits a lot of fouls, but his reading of the game is really impressive. Schweinsteiger made more tackles a game last season compared to him, but Martinez had 3.8 interceptions a game in last season's CL run, that's incredible. (stats taken from whoscored.com). Schweinsteiger had 1.8, Busquets 2.3, Vidal 2.2, Xavi 0.8, Carrick 2.4 just for comparison.
And I actually believe that Martinez' role in the team is very important to "Pep Guardiola's Bayern", so I don't think we're far off topic if we discuss what he brings to the team and how it helps or hurts the new system. If Martinez continues to play in defense, it's not because he's too limited for the CM spot, imo. It's because he offers something that none of the centerbacks does and that Guardiola wants in that position. I don't really like it, because Martinez needs to act more cautious as a centerback with no defender behind him and I doubt that's good for his game, but a few times it looked like Schweinsteiger will drop back in defense in posession and Martinez will move forward, so it might work.
Sorry but that's just wrong. His accuracy is just as good as Gustavo's and he's way quicker in releasing the ball, way smarter in his movement which makes him less of an target against pressing. He might not have the passing range of Schweinsteiger when the player is given a lot of time, but under immense pressure I'd say Martinez is the second best passer of last season's team, only Kroos is better. If we're only talking about hollywood passes, well then fair enough, even Gustavo makes more spectacular ones over the whole season. If we're talking about efficiency in the most important games of the season, Martinez is brilliant.
Well, since you like to argue that much on the back of pure numbers, please explain me, why Gustavo had with 93% pass accuracy (an incredible figure btw) a better percentage than Martinez in the league? Gustavo´s biggest strength is his passing ability and in that aspect I simply rate him higher than Martinez.
I don´t base my argumentation on such figures btw, because they never really tell the whole story, especially when it comes to things like tackles, which never take the circumstances into account. For example, Gündogan made on average more tackles than Bender in the CL. That does not makes him the better tackling player, not by a long shot actually. I just tell the things like I have seen them.
In general, I think you talk up Martinez passing a tad too much here. You say, that he is better than Schweinsteiger there under pressure, which makes for me little sense, because out of the two Schweinsteiger was the one, who received the main force of the opposing pressure. He was the director of Munich´s play, the one who pulled the strings in the build up. The sheer number of his passes throughout the season is proof of that.
If Martinez was even close to the level of Schweinsteiger in terms of passing ability, he would have taken an even more dominant role in Munich´s build up play. He would also play a different role in Guardiola´s and Del Bosque´s plans, given that passing of the level of Schweinsteiger on top of all his other strengths would probably make him the most complete midfielder in Europe and an even bigger waste as CB.
Arguing about which of your many world class midfielders is the weakest.
I hate you all.
I hate you all.
Fret not Cina, lets discuss which of our world class wingers is the weakest. That'l tell them.
Oh wait..
Hey, there are not "mine".
I have to live my life with Gündogan, Sahin, Kehl and Bender.....
Not that bad of a life, actually
...I didn't base my argumentation on figures, they just prove the point that tackling isn't one of his main weapons in controling the midfield and hardly one of his main strength and I don't think you can interpret these numbers as much as passing accuracy. I never said Schweinsteiger was a better tackler btw, he just tackled more. The number of interceptions and tackles for the DM is highly dependent on the pressing the team plays and the roles the players fulfill. At Bayern for example Schweinsteiger contributes way more actively in pressing than Martinez, which leads to the former attacking more directly the other team's players (more tackles) while Martinez reads the game and intercepts misplaced passes (same goes for Gündogan and Bender or Xavi and Busquets btw.) but it also shows the strengths of the players. It's no coincidence that they are used in these roles.
I just need to watch the cup final vs Dortmund with Gustavo in midfield and the CL final vs Dortmund with Martinez and I know who's better and why Bayern spent so much money on that player. Gustavo didn't even play in the majority of difficult games last season, so I'm not surprised his numbers look that good. Along with that, Bayern often struggled in 11/12 when Schweinsteiger wasn't at his best, because Gustavo basically doesn't add anything at top level in creativity. Martinez can't replace Schweinsteiger but still offers a lot more than Gustavo.
It's obvious that Schweinsteiger isn't that good under pressure, very few players in the world are. The reason of course is, that he still tries to play more creative passes and that simply doesn't work. Pirlo for example has similar problems against strong pressing as seen in the games vs Bayern this season or in the Euro final vs Spain. That's why Schweinsteiger against Dortmund often dropped back between the centerbacks, to get more time on the ball and make better decisions. That's where Martinez really helped Bayern (and Schweinsteiger) in comparison to Gustavo. He always is available and still passes the ball forward, maybe not in a way that instantly creates goals but still forward to release some pressure. Gustavo in comparison always plays the ball back, takes the safe option for the pass which also invites pressure on the team and makes it more difficult for the playmakers to create or at least get the ball into dangerous areas. That might lead to a higher successful pass completion rate for the player but really doesn't help the team. It will be very interesting to see if Guardiola helps Schweinsteiger improve in that area. Almost all CMs outside of Spain struggle in that department. As boring as watching tiki-taka can be, it's a damn good way to play through pressing.
He has been trying different things from the get-go to see just how much variation is available in this Bayern side. For example he has thrown Dante up front to give more aerial presence (sort of like he did with Pique at Barca). He has also thrown Lahm in midfield, in my opinion to see if Bayern can play with 3 at the back. I believe playing Martinez there may also be an indication of reverting to a 3 man back line.
One thing to note is that most players trust him and believe in him. If it was someone of lesser stature, maybe the belief in him wouldn't be so stable and strong. But it's Pep Guardiola. A manager who has won everything in such little time. If anyone presently shouldn't be questioned in world football, it's him.
He will be fine. Bayern will win the league and the domestic cup this year at the least. The Champions League may be a bit much, but if they were to win it again, they would be on par with Barcelona of 09-12.
I'm looking forward to watching them closely. I've always had a huge soft spot for Bayern - class team.
One thing to note is that most players trust him and believe in him. If it was someone of lesser stature, maybe the belief in him wouldn't be so stable and strong. But it's Pep Guardiola. A manager who has won everything in such little time. If anyone presently shouldn't be questioned in world football, it's him.
He will be fine. Bayern will win the league and the domestic cup this year at the least. The Champions League may be a bit much, but if they were to win it again, they would be on par with Barcelona of 09-12.
I'm looking forward to watching them closely. I've always had a huge soft spot for Bayern - class team.
I think Martinez is great from what I've seen of him. I'd personally pick them as my first choice two in midfield at bayern. One is the best central midfielder and the other the best defensive midfielder at the club.
On par? They'd be even better if they achieved that. No one has done it before in the current format.
The man just seems to have a genuine mental illness that compels him to slap anything fleshy looking within a 10 yard radius of where he is.
It looked like Boateng was going to nail that guy afterwards
Erm- what game did the guys on fourfourtwo watch? "While the hosts had plenty of possession"... (http://www.fourfourtwo.com/news/bundesliga-schalke-0-bayern-munich-4)
(http://www.fourfourtwo.com/news/bundesliga-schalke-0-bayern-munich-4)I think they are only talking about short periods in which Schalke tried to create something. Overall Bayern clearly dominated possession (65% according to the official Bundesliga stats).Erm- what game did the guys on fourfourtwo watch? "While the hosts had plenty of possession"...
Loving the side. Amazing transition.
- Status