Politics at Westminster | BREAKING: UKIP

Democracy only works when the parties stand in opposition to each other - then we choose between them. It's kind of the point.
 
How dare you refer to us lot as "you lot", Al - I'll have you know that my family is descended from King Jeremy of Kyle.
 
alastair said:
The thing is - you can point score on domestic policy all you want, but when it comes to the Syrian crisis, you end up looking a bit pathetic.

Miliband is still weak. He's one of the worst leaders you lot have ever had. This will die down very quickly indeed, I would imagine, rightly or wrongly.
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Miliband tonight looks in control. He correctly called the mood of Parliament and Cameron did not. It's bound to have an impact on how they are viewed.
 
SteveJ said:
There'll always be point-scoring. I recall a debate in which one MP stood up and called for all parties to show unity; he then proceeded to laud his own party's objectivity, and ended with the words "...unlike that party over there!" :wenger:
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Although I don't agree that 'it always happens' is ever an acceptable excuse to justify individual behaviour, it is sadly true in a lot of cases. What disappointed me today was that it wasn't the odd radical backbencher piping up to make this a right vs. left or Cameron vs. Miliband fight, it was front bench members of the Cabinet and Shadow Cabinet (particularly the latter from the media I've seen) focusing nearly the entirety of their attentions on the party political angle. Found Douglas Alexander's Newsnight interview really distasteful and would expect someone that aims to hold one of the great offices of state to hold themselves to a higher standard.
 
MikeUpNorth said:
Democracy only works when the parties stand in opposition to each other - then we choose between them. It's kind of the point.
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In terms of subscribing to different sets of general principles and different proposed policies on key voting areas, yes. I don't think when it comes to a topic like condemning the use of chemical weapons it's reasonable or favourable to have parties taking vastly opposing stances.

It's not undermining democracy to have members of the same party voting differently, in fact I think it strengthens it deeply and in that sense tonight's vote was encouraging. Picking apart an opponent's argument needn't descend into wider point scoring on party dynamics and individual's reputations.
 
alastair said:
The thing is - you can point score on domestic policy all you want, but when it comes to the Syrian crisis, you end up looking a bit pathetic.

Miliband is still weak. He's one of the worst leaders you lot have ever had. This will die down very quickly indeed, I would imagine, rightly or wrongly.
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I think it's much worse than pathetic. I'd go with callous. There was plenty of it from all sides, today. I also disagree that point scoring on domestic issues is, by comparison, not that big a deal.
 
Look at Friday's front pages, the same papers who used such graphic descriptions of the attack and inflammatory language couldn't give a crap. Not that many of them gave much of one to begin with.
 
40 rebels for the government and is that which saw the no vote over the line. I know that there were 30+ abstentions for Labour, not sure bout the coalition parties.
 
Aaronovitch wrote a great piece in the Times today on Miliband/Syria. Conclusion Miliband is political vulture who would be dreadful PM, and his party knows it.
 
In a round of television interviews in St Petersburg, Mr Cameron defended his handling of the proposed intervention, arguing that his aim was the protection of the innocent.

He told the BBC: "I take full and personal responsibility for the decision to recall Parliament, for the decision to take a strong and principled stand against the gassing of children in Syria, and I take full responsibility for putting forward as generous a motion I could, to bring as many people with me as I could.”

He said: "Everyone who voted has to live with the way that they voted.

"My only regret about what happened last week is that, having produced a motion in Parliament that was clear about going to the UN, that was clear about listening to the weapons inspectors, that was clear about having another vote before military action - all things that the opposition asked for - that even in spite of that, in my view, they chose the easy and political path not the right and the difficult path."
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It's safe to say that a few Christmas card lists will be shorter this year., Miliband and rebel government MPs won't appreciate that categorisation.
 
Fiskey said:
Aaronovitch wrote a great piece in the Times today on Miliband/Syria. Conclusion Miliband is political vulture who would be dreadful PM, and his party knows it.
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Blairite war hawk in being pissed off shocker.

Hope he hands his card in too, like Hodges.
 
Nick 0208 Ldn said:
It's safe to say that a few Christmas card lists will be shorter this year., Miliband and rebel government MPs won't appreciate that categorisation.
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The press and conservatives can't quite believe Miliband had the temerity to oppose them.

HMGs official opposition opposed them and done what the electorate polls wanted to happen.

Imagine democracy in action rather than the Westminster bubble doing its thing. Shocking.
 
I've been genuinely shocked at how Miliband has stooped so low. It's just a cast iron case of insane over-promotion caused by an immensely flawed election system within the Labour Party.
 
If you can't carry your own party on an issue bitching about what another party does strikes me as very poor form. If Cameron takes it personally then he is a small man indeed. There doesn't seem to be any good reason given for us to be involved in bombing Syria unless we are picking a side in the civil war there.



On the other hand there are good reasons for not getting involved. We have just implemented massive defence cuts in the UK and can't afford two aircraft carriers with planes on them at the moment. It would seem to me obvious that learning the lessons about the futility of these escapades and making an honest judgment about our means versus the numbers of interventions we get involved in is a very good idea.



The argument about international redlines on chemical attacks is powerful but completely undermined by the UN itself and what it does to international relationships if we bomb without UN mandate, which we all know won't happen.



So if the govt want to point score about the Labour vote rather than dealing with the inherent confusion in their stance then I hope Westminster continues to frustrate them as the British public want them to.
 
Sarah Teather to stand down as Lib Dem MP at 2015 election

Ms Teather told the Observer she was stepping down because "she no longer feels that Nick Clegg's party fights sufficiently for social justice and liberal values on immigration".

It quoted her as saying that Mr Clegg's tougher approach to immigration - including a plan for some immigrants to pay a £1,000 deposit when applying for visas - left her feeling "desolate" and "catastrophically depressed".

I have disagreed with both government and official party lines on a whole range of welfare and immigration policies, and those differences have been getting larger rather than smaller”

"It was an absolutely black moment. I couldn't even move from my seat when I read it. I was so depressed I couldn't even be angry. I was utterly desolate," she is quoted as saying.

She also pointed to her party's decision to back the Tories' planned cap on welfare, while she was in government.

"It was the moment of realising that my own party was just as afraid of public opinion as the Labour Party. Something did break for me that was never, ever repaired," she said.

In the statement on her website, she said: "For various reasons, to do with some aspects of government policy and the very particular issues that brought me to politics in the first place, I now feel that come the next general election, it will be the right time for me to step aside."

She went on: "As with most party members, there have always been a few issues where I have disagreed with party policy.

"But over the last three years, what has been difficult is that policy has moved in some of the issues that ground my own personal sense of political vocation - that of working with and serving the most vulnerable members of society.

"I have disagreed with both government and official party lines on a whole range of welfare and immigration policies, and those differences have been getting larger rather than smaller."
'Left me tired'
She said she had tried to balance fighting for what she believed in with the "loyalty and friendship" she felt towards colleagues - but that had created "intense pressure, and at times left me very tired".

"I don't think it is sustainable for me personally to continue to try and do that in the long term," she said.
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How brave to stand down from a seat she was going to lose anyway.
 
Sarah Teather is a contemptible woman made even more contemptible by her decision to stand down. She was one of the most vocal opponents of a rise in student tuition fees before the election, only to become one of the coalition's most vocal defenders of the rise once it was decided it was to be brought in. The way she tried to justify it was laughable. As Ubik says, she was nailed on to lose her seat at the next election due to her tuition fee lie and failure to stand up for what she claimed to believe in. This is just a cowardly exit, which she is trying to dress up as one of principle. Nobody's buying it.
 
Voted against the same-sex marriage bill as well. Liberal indeed.
 
Has anyone noticed in the last week two governments have changed moving to the centre-right? It seems to be a trend in the world as a whole right now.
 
alastair said:
Has anyone noticed in the last week two governments have changed moving to the centre-right? It seems to be a trend in the world as a whole right now.
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Yes, although both were in opposition so hard to say if it's voters moving to the right or voters moving against the incumbents.
 
No wonder they let Farage do all the talking, the rest of them are all nutters.
 
Decent speech, but the comments from after the speech were hilarious on the Daily Politics show. One women saying Ed would be the greatest British PM we have ever had and another saying it was the best political speech he has heard.
 
The papers report Miliband on the side of the consumer, one would think the Tory strategists get their house in order. Noooooo, the next day the Financial Times runs on its cover Osborne suing the EU for having the temerity to cap bankers`bonuses which have already went out of control under the Tories. THE BANKERS AIN'T GETTING ENOUGH, PEOPLE.

With just 2% of the public on the side of the energy companies after a YouGov pol, Tory MPs parroting propaganda press releases over Twitter and, finally, Angela Knight renowned defender of banking regulation and now defender of the big 6 on every media outlet available, safe to say MIliband has played a blinder.

Do the energy companies really is think threatening behaviour to let the lights go out is really going to endear them to the public. I noticed edf who make massive profits in France as a nationalised company are sittingon their hands, scared to speak.
 
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