Shinji Kagawa

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Shark22 said:
And where exactly would you get that impression from?

Plus, Berbatov was only more established to people who watched the PL. I'm pretty sure that viewers of La Liga, Bundesliga ect. wouldn't have known an awful lot about him. As the poster above said, everything isn't about the PL.
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Berbatov was a top player in the Bundesliga before moving to Spurs. Fergie wanted to sign him already when he was a Leverkusen player. He played with Leverkusen in a CL final and scored goals in the CL vs Barca, Real, us, Liverpool, Roma etc.

As for Kagawa being a top drawer, well, that's not true. Top drawer are the likes of Iniesta, Ozil, Fabregas or Mata. Kagawa has a long way to go before being considered in the same bracket.
 
psychdelicblues said:
Last season, with the options up front, Kagawa really needed to hit the ground running . He started the first 6 league games in his preferred position, but on the whole, did not really see his Dortmund form. Then was injured for 2 months.Even after injury, despite a couple of cameos, United still did not see the best of him on a consistent basis due to either non- selection, playing out of position or still feeling his way after a long lay off. When you are going for league titles and CL titles every year the bedding in period in certain positions may not be very long, especially if there is a lot of competition for places. On the surface he is 1 of 8 players competing for 2 spots in the 3 attacking positions behind Van Persie. He will really need to take any opportunities he gets, and up his game for Moyes to be starting him every week.
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Football is more complex than having 11 indivuduals being in form. Kagawa was as good as he was at Dortmund because he and the club(/system) were a perfect match. United however plays completely different, so it most likely won't be a case of being fit/in form or settling in for him.
 
do.ob said:
Football is more complex than having 11 indivuduals being in form. Kagawa was as good as he was at Dortmund because he and the club(/system) were a perfect match. United however plays completely different, so it most likely won't be a case of being fit/in form or settling in for him.
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Sadly I think maybe you are right.
He will have to adapt or die or the team will have to adapt. United do not press, United play at a slower tempo
and United's main source of creativity is out wide. What plans Moyes has for United and where Kagawa fits in his plans to get the best out of him remains to be seen.
 
He was as good as he was at Dortmund because he had the coaches faith and Wayne Rooney wasnt in the way of playing as a number 10. He can still be a very good option on the left
 
Ekeke said:
He was as good as he was at Dortmund because he had the coaches faith and Wayne Rooney wasnt in the way of playing as a number 10. He can still be a very good option on the left
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Football is much more complex than that.
 
do.ob said:
Football is much more complex than that.
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Yep, though in Moyes we have a manager who has used Pienaar in a similar role earlier so there's no reason why he cant to do so with Kagawa. Though i agree its tough to see Kagawa excel like he did at Dormund because we're unlikely to play the high pressing, high tempo style with the kind of movement that Dortmund have.
 
do.ob said:
Football is much more complex than that.
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His problem is not. We play with 1x number 10 and after this summer its official, he's bigger than the club and Kagawa wont be given a run there. You cannot expect him to play like he did at Dortmund in a different, more peripheral role. Only if he plays the same, important role.
 
Ekeke said:
His problem is not. We play with 1x number 10 and after this summer its official, he's bigger than the club and Kagawa wont be given a run there. You cannot expect him to play like he did at Dortmund in a different, more peripheral role. Only if he plays the same, important role.
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Yes that is true, but what I'm saying is that Rooney is only half of his problem.
 
do.ob said:
Yes that is true, but what I'm saying is that Rooney is only half of his problem.
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I think he'd be more or less automatic choice if Rooney had left this summer and we didnt directly replace him. Perhaps competing with Welbeck for the spot, but Welbeck is playing regularly on the left so might not have been an issue
 
Being one of the main title rivals I watch almost every United game.
 
ItsEssexRob said:
No but we're in the EPL, so our judgement on whether hes suitable/adapting should be based upon this league.
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The initial discussion was about kagawa as a footballer as compared to berbatov for which all football is relevant.
 
psychdelicblues said:
United do not press, United play at a slower tempo and United's main source of creativity is out wide. What plans Moyes has for United and where Kagawa fits in his plans to get the best out of him remains to be seen.
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This came up in a thread about United's identity last week, whilst such traits as a slower tempo and inadequate pressing of the opposition are products of our football at present i see no reason why we should settle for that going forward.

Yes wing play has been a hallmark of the club however these days it is almost at the exclusion of all else, our best teams possessed greater variety and balance in that regard.

Kagawa could represent a return to those past United vintages, we shouldn't be settling for less.

Fergie began the process of rejuvenating the team and Moyes must continue that work.
 
Ekeke said:
I think he'd be more or less automatic choice if Rooney had left this summer and we didnt directly replace him. Perhaps competing with Welbeck for the spot, but Welbeck is playing regularly on the left so might not have been an issue
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I think do.ob is saying that Kagawa's only problem at United isn't just competition for places, its that the style of football we play might not suit him. It'll be interesting to see if Moyes tries to get us playing differently.
 
ItsEssexRob said:
Being one of the main title rivals I watch almost every United game.
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Main rivals? The Chavs finished 14 points behind United last season. The season before last 25 points. The season before that 9 points.
1 PL title in in 7 years. I thought your main rival were Fulham. How is watching most United games translate to you that you have some kind of rivalry to United? You're just a plastic insurance policy in case City or Liverpool threaten to win anything.
 
Shark22 said:
And where exactly would you get that impression from?

Plus, Berbatov was only more established to people who watched the PL. I'm pretty sure that viewers of La Liga, Bundesliga ect. wouldn't have known an awful lot about him. As the poster above said, everything isn't about the PL.
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I'm pretty sure viewers of the Bundesliga would have definitely been aware of Berbatov's talents, given the fact the he was consistently one of the best strikers in the league for about 3 years.
 
psychdelicblues said:
Main rivals? The Chavs finished 14 points behind United last season. The season before last 25 points. The season before that 9 points.
1 PL title in in 7 years. I thought your main rival were Fulham. How is watching most United games translate to you that you have some kind of rivalry to United? You're just a plastic insurance policy in case City or Liverpool threaten to win anything.
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And you finished 18 points behind us in 04/05 and 8 behind us in 05/06, didnt stop you being our main title rivals though did it?
 
ItsEssexRob said:
And you finished 18 points behind us in 04/05 and 8 behind us in 05/06, didnt stop you being our main title rivals though did it?
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So what? It was achieved with Russian oligarch money. Those titles are as hollow as they come. Do you think most people respects those achievements? The irony of it is that if Abramovich had not bankrolled the chavs, you would probably be nowhere near this forum.
 
Ciderman90210 said:
What a stupid argument.
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I know, the guy has no interest in Kagawa or the discussion he is just interested in stalking my posts and picking holes or being insulting, its littered over any thread where I have posted!

He was moaning about me because I said I have always watched United as I see them as the main title rival, then talking about our points gap in the past 2 seasons, then when I pointed out Uniteds gap between us in 04-06, yet they still were seen as title rivals he starts talking about RA and hollow titles.
 
ItsEssexRob said:
I know, the guy has no interest in Kagawa or the discussion he is just interested in stalking my posts and picking holes or being insulting, its littered over any thread where I have posted!

He was moaning about me because I said I have always watched United as I see them as the main title rival, then talking about our points gap in the past 2 seasons, then when I pointed out Uniteds gap between us in 04-06, yet they still were seen as title rivals he starts talking about RA and hollow titles.
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How is me referring to you as 'webcam Rob' insulting?
 
I highly rate him..

However, if all you do is think he is good - so what? Does it matter?
Why waste our time trying to put him into a category - Is he better than other regular starters? Yes. Do we need somebody with his qualities in the team? As evidenced so far this season, most definitely.

Whether he's good or world class and even if he isn't living up to his Dortmund days/potential - he's better than what's been starting, we're in need of the exact things he brings to the team - it's a no brainer for all of us surely.

He adds a level of composure, vision and ability in the final third - surely we can all agree that he needs to be given atleast the chance to deserve his place in the starting 11, whether it be centrally or from the left.
 
psychdelicblues said:
Main rivals? The Chavs finished 14 points behind United last season. The season before last 25 points. The season before that 9 points.
1 PL title in in 7 years. I thought your main rival were Fulham. How is watching most United games translate to you that you have some kind of rivalry to United? You're just a plastic insurance policy in case City or Liverpool threaten to win anything.
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Don't be silly. To say that Chelsea aren't our rivals is just retarded, and you know it.
 
I didn't understand what our formation was supposed to be against Liverpool. At no point did Ryan Giggs appear to have a position, despite the fact no one at all was playing from the left.

It looked like a bit of a shambles tbh. As if Giggs had decided he was too important to play with any kind of positional discipline and the rest of the team was supposed to cover for that whilst all having their own jobs to do.

Was like what we kept doing with Scholes in the first third of last season, only in a different area of the pitch.
 
psychdelicblues said:
So what? It was achieved with Russian oligarch money. Those titles are as hollow as they come. Do you think most people respects those achievements? The irony of it is that if Abramovich had not bankrolled the chavs, you would probably be nowhere near this forum.
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They won the league, History is history no matter how you paint it im afraid.

The last sentence is just you being a prick tbf.
 
noodlehair said:
I didn't understand what our formation was supposed to be against Liverpool. At no point did Ryan Giggs appear to have a position, despite the fact no one at all was playing from the left.

It looked like a bit of a shambles tbh. As if Giggs had decided he was too important to play with any kind of positional discipline and the rest of the team was supposed to cover for that whilst all having their own jobs to do.

Was like what we kept doing with Scholes in the first third of last season, only in a different area of the pitch.
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I thought Giggs and Welbeck were interchanging. They did it against Swansea too iirc. Our 'wide' players including Valencia (who used to rarely come inside) seem to play very tucked in under Moyes and I think it's done purposefully to support the midfield a bit as he's obviously identified it as our area of weakness. We are way more open when we're spread out and far apart. I don't think Giggsy was deliberately upsetting the balance of the team. If anything I think sometimes he was trying to drop deep to help midfield, as well as drifting to the flanks to allow Welbeck to come more central at times.



I'm not a fan of Fellaini but it'll be interesting to see if having him in the team means that our forward players will be less obliged to do a supportive job in midfield, because sometimes that zaps the creative edge a bit.
 
LR7 said:
I thought Giggs and Welbeck were interchanging. They did it against Swansea too iirc. Our 'wide' players including Valencia (who used to rarely come inside) seem to play very tucked in under Moyes and I think it's done purposefully to support the midfield a bit as he's obviously identified it as our area of weakness. We are way more open when we're spread out and far apart. I don't think Giggsy was deliberately upsetting the balance of the team. If anything I think sometimes he was trying to drop deep to help midfield, as well as drifting to the flanks to allow Welbeck to come more central at times.



I'm not a fan of Fellaini but it'll be interesting to see if having him in the team means that our forward players will be less obliged to do a supportive job in midfield, because sometimes that zaps the creative edge a bit.
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Giggs and Welbeck played on different sides of the pitch against Liverpool.
 
#07 said:
Yahoo Eurosport putting their two pennies in: How Kagawa became a Manchester United misfit
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ESPN also has a story going about him The disappearing of Shinji Kagawa there is a video as well with Steve Nicol talking about it.

Really do hope that it's a case of Kagawa simply being not ready from a stupid summer - of which the club are to blame for in making him play one game against his club then sending him off on vacation again.

If it's a case of Moyes not rating him then I despair.
 
The problem could be our outdated wing play at the moment. We've always had it, but it's not always been as one dimensional and as much of a focus as it is now. Bayern's wing play probably being an example of how it should be done and how we used to do it.
 
I've said this before, but I'm pretty sure he just wasn't completely fit yet, especially not for a start at Anfield. Not sure why so many people are panicking because Kagawa hasn't featured 3 games into the season. He played in our last pre season game I think against Sevilla and he looked nowhere near fit yet so it's understandable he wasn't thrust into the first team right away. I'd start getting worried if he doesn't feature against Palace or against Leverkusen (more likely because of international games with Japan), but I'm sure he will. People just writing about it are others just speculating and building on what others wrote. Don't think there's anything in it like Moyes not liking him or something.
 
Sky1981 said:
I'm really baffled, we're crying for midfielder, even wingers at times...

And here's Kagawa... not even making the bench...

I'm worried
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Its 3 games in to the season for crying out loud :lol:
btw you do realize he had virutally no break in the off season due to international commitments and needs to be able to ease back in to the team. Its not just the physical but the mental break he hasnt had.

We have a big squad, its not the end of the world if Kagawa gets a slow introduction to the season (which he needs because of the lack of an off season break)
 
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