And I find it incredible that we chose not to address that long-standing issue. The January window will be very interesting.
Moyes So Far!
- Thread starter RedTillI'mDead
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He picked a team that Fergie might very well have picked too. Yet people insist it indicates his tactical shortcomings. If he had picked Kagawa and Nani, two players that for various highly legitimate reasons have not featured much so far this season, and we had been murdered in much the same way - would his critics have been pleased, praised him for his adventurous spirit and declared their absolute trust in him?
This perceived negativity has been displayed in three matches that are without doubt among the most difficult we're likely to play this season. For a new man in this job to be a bit cautious isn't exactly criminal, nor is it an indication of things to come. We're a mere month into his first season.
This perceived negativity has been displayed in three matches that are without doubt among the most difficult we're likely to play this season. For a new man in this job to be a bit cautious isn't exactly criminal, nor is it an indication of things to come. We're a mere month into his first season.
More often that not, and by a wide margin, SAF picked teams like this in big games. Particularly away games.
And then we all screamed about it after the inevitable result.
Oh I agree, the squads under performed for a few seasons. We've been grinding out results under Ferguson mainly because he's a terrific manager. But I've always said (and took a fair bit of criticism when he was appointed) that Dave wasn't the right man. I'll stand by the manager while he's at the club, but we should be as critical to Dave as we were to Ferguson. We can't just allow him to feck up because he's new and inexperienced and i'm sure he won't want nor expect that. The same levels of professionalism has to go through the club, from chairmen to managers to players.
What i'm concerned at with Dave (which is why I said I wasn't surprised) is his lack of ambition in the bigger games. He plays to contain and be defensive, something that as Champions we shouldn't be doing. We're all about playing with flair and being technically better than the opposition, so watching Kagawa and Nani sat on the bench through the first 2 months of the season has been somewhat frustrating. To be fair to Dave, he's had injuries to contend with and some tricky fixtures but that shouldn't be an excuse. I don't think i'd mind losing as much as long as we gave it a go and played in a positive way. Sitting deep and soaking up pressure fecks me off no end.
It's probably a good thing that these results are happening at the start of the season though as it gives Dave plenty to consider and time to sort it out.
Not true. That only became a feature of Sir Alex's attitude in the post-Ronaldo era and, arguably, can be attributed to the increasing conservatism that all elderly people develop. Up until the late years of the last decade home or away you could guarantee in the big games United would play their best XI.
I find it weird you are calling him Dave. You're the only one I've seen doing this. Seems purposefully disrespectful.
It's fine to criticize but I think many people on here today are being spastic idiots.
But, just to sum up, you are concerned be lacks ambition in big games, which is an appropriate description of SAF over recent seasons in big away games, but for Moyes, this is a problem. Even though, he is literally doing exactly what we've seen recently. We're you as equally frustrated seeing Nani and Kagawa on the bench last year? Because that's where they were most of the time.
Have you watched United over the past 3 or 4 seasons?
Nothing there I disagree with. But we aren't going to play Smalling at RB forever. Rio, Young, Valencia - they won't keep starting either on current form, once the alternatives are fully fit and ready to go. Fellaini has started two matches for us, including a derby facing a top notch Yaya. Some matches are going to be bloody difficult no matter who we field - City turned up on the night, they played very well and we did not start our best eleven, not even close. They're a side full of top quality footballers, we can't expect to match them easily with half of what I would consider our strongest team out.
Right. That's what I was talking about. So, true because we are discussing this particular squad, not ones featuring Keane and Cantona.
In his post match interview today he had a go at the premier league fixtures computer and said again that he felt something odd happened with our difficult opening fixtures. I wish he'd drop that excuse, its a bit like something Rafa would be saying. Yes, we all know its odd, but we simply were not good enough today. Its not the premier leagues fault that some of our players should not be playing in big games.
And to the decreasing quality of the squad.
But it was SAF who parked the bus at Barcelona in 2008. Or started Ronny Johnsen as a DM in the San Siro. Though then hauling him off for Paul Scholes with Inter battering us was an inspired and very positive substitution.
Rafa? Fergie used to come out with stuff like that all the time.
Yep very much so. I'm sure that we all thought with a new man at the helm he might have done his research and realised where we were continually going wrong in these games.
Yeah that was a bit uncalled for. Making himself look stupid.
He wouldn't be in this mess if he'd had a go at Liverpool and vs Chelsea at home.
I can't argue with that. I was screaming "MOVE! Give an option!" so regularly, I sounded like Uncle Mort, who sits next to me.
Smalling is technically inept, and should only play at CB.
Nobody would carry the ball either. The commonality in the games where we've dropped points, is stationary players, trying to pass their way through.
Against a semi-organised Premiership defence, they will/have just soaked it up.
As shit as we were today, I still have faith in Moyes
He just needs to start with a more attacking line up, nail the opposition and he'll be right
He just needs to start with a more attacking line up, nail the opposition and he'll be right
Yup. The most telling thing was how unconcerned Kompany was by following Rooney straight into midfield every time. No one was moving around or in behind him, why shouldn't he?
The depressing thing is Valencia, Young and Fellaini will never offer the movement that's needed in matches like this. We were so easy to defend against it wasn't even funny.
Granted City probably relaxed a bit but by moving Welbeck wide, who actually moved infield, and playing Cleverley centrally who offered some vertical movement and quick passes, we improved no end and got Rooney into the match.
The movement from our players in general is poor and it does my head in. What do we do during the training sessions anyway ?
Conservatism, perhaps. Or just the fact that in his last seasons we simply didn't have the attacking force to go out and outfight the opponent in the swashbuckling manner of some of his greatest teams. Certainly not after Ronaldo left. I've thought for a while now that what Fergie aimed for was to replace Ronaldo - in the sense of regaining that attacking superiority which would allow him to play his "true" game. But that's another story for another thread.
We looked so tired and laboured in possession. Other teams are looking more fitter than us right now. Maybe it's just the players we have, but we need some dynamic players as the team is looking very slow and sluggish.
Maybe it played a role, I just meant that in general, in a worrying percentage of our matches, the movement is rarely spot on. There is no variety to the attacking play, just the same old routines.
Imagine if Nani or Kagawa were carrying the ball infield. Cleverley's movement made them have to track, instead of just defend space.
When I heard RVP was out, I thought ok, Rooney up top, Kagawa in behind, or at least Nani. I didn't expect Welbeck, returning from injury, to be pitched in there.
I think we all were. But I'd also expect a new manager, particularly one like Moyes, to attempt to copy the SAF blueprint for a bit, so as not to enrage the fan base. After this though, I'd expect him to go his own way more.
We need to be more cute in our movement, both wingers are so predictable and easy to defend again. It's the same thing over and over again, pass it wide and hope the wingers do something other than get tackled or put a pointless cross in. We need variety. City have players that come inside and pop up everywhere on the pitch and are difficult to mark, not to mention Toure and even Kompany who can both seemingly breeze past our entire team to join the attack for their side. The players don't seem dynamic enough to cause panic in the opposition defence and we just have nobody who can pick a pass out in a crowded area.
hehe it's working well so far.
Yup. Cleverley and Welbeck forced City into worrying about what happened inbetween them or in behind them, not just defend with the whole pitch in front of them.
Schoolboy stuff but when your entire midfield stands still you're not going to get Rooney into the match.
I think he's as surprised as anyone that the team just shut off. Doubt he had this problem at Everton but it's been with this squad for a couple of years now.
The movement is limited to the players. Valencia just isn't going to do that sort of movement. Young can as we saw against CP but it's quite rare and seems to be down to his own confidence, Welbeck has got the movement but to often tries to be to nice/clever.
I'll call him whatever I like thank you. Dave is a lovely name, stop being so disrespectful!
What do you expect? We just lost against City in a Derby 4-1 after being completely out played. I'm surprised the reaction hasn't been worse.
Yes and I get pissed off watching United play in such a manner. Forgive me for wanting us to play decent football (and not get outplayed by the opposition). You're trying to defend Dave using Ferguson as a guide, but many of us had grievances with Ferguson as well! United haven't really played brilliant football for a few seasons. Anyway, we can't judge Dave until he's at least gone through a seasons worth of football, but like all signings, they should in reality be given at least 2 if not 3 seasons. Feel free to defend him till you're blue in the face though. It'll be a long season for you!
It is frustrating to see no improvement on this particular aspect from some players. I think it has a lot to do with the coaching, yes you need some intelligent players and technical to make this work well but we could at least some improvement in that aspect.
Maybe, but you also need the mentality. It's easy to just stay on the flanks and just check inside/back to your full back which is what Valencia/Yoiung are largely doing. It's much harder to take the initiative to come inside and influence or actually have a go at your fullback. There's a limit to what you can coach.
Then play the players who actually try.
Hell, play Welbeck wide and throw Cleverley into the midfield. Just don't play players who won't try in positions were them trying is a basic requirement of them.
I think we agree on the same general idea.
Well yeah I agree that the selection was wrong today. But at the same time Young and Valencia can do much better than they showed today. Valencia beat Kolarov when he actually had a go at him.
Looking at his post-match comments it appears he is excusing the poor form based on the tough set of fixtures.
"We wanted to win more of those games, we have to do that but maybe if these games were a bit later I might have had a better understanding of the players and the situation at the club.
"I think any manager taking over with the run of fixtures we have had would have found it difficult."
Come on David, you have had long enough to bed in. Yes any manager would have found them difficult but that doesn't excuse the performances. Get a grip. Pellegrini hasn't managed in England before but he managed to get City playing to their potential on derby day.
"We wanted to win more of those games, we have to do that but maybe if these games were a bit later I might have had a better understanding of the players and the situation at the club.
"I think any manager taking over with the run of fixtures we have had would have found it difficult."
Come on David, you have had long enough to bed in. Yes any manager would have found them difficult but that doesn't excuse the performances. Get a grip. Pellegrini hasn't managed in England before but he managed to get City playing to their potential on derby day.
Reading it in black and white somehow its worse...c'mon David. Just stop it.
I find it incredible that a man who has worked in the Premier League for years, must have watched these players hundreds of times and seen videos of them every season as he went through his pregame planning to face Man Utd, doesn't know 'the situation at the club'.
According to Sky Bet, Moyes is the 6th favourite to be sacked next
So far, God awful.
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