To be fair I don't think Valencia is a good example of 'exotic' .. he's not remotely a flair player in his current guise, not that I agree with Antohan, though he does make some interesting points.
Moyes So Far!
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To be fair I don't think Valencia is a good example of 'exotic' .. he's not remotely a flair player in his current guise, not that I agree with Antohan, though he does make some interesting points.
Antohan formats his posts really well. The short succinct paragraphs make my eyes happy.
Back on topic, SAF is the one who stocked our teams with these British type players, who constantly played Valencia when he was in poor form, who gave Kagawa and Hernandez a relatively limited amount of appearances last season and who picked Welbeck in several important games. At the moment Moyes is operating in SAF's comfort zone, so I'll judge him more on the players he brings in during the next few transfer windows.
Back on topic, SAF is the one who stocked our teams with these British type players, who constantly played Valencia when he was in poor form, who gave Kagawa and Hernandez a relatively limited amount of appearances last season and who picked Welbeck in several important games. At the moment Moyes is operating in SAF's comfort zone, so I'll judge him more on the players he brings in during the next few transfer windows.
Go compare the 2000 squad to the one he handed over to Moyes. Marked change AWAY from that.
Nani's contract situation was a big part of the issue, or at least that seemed to be the case.
Mind, I have no beef with Valencia or even Young, I just wouldn't consider them both starters. It's the most one dimensional combo we have available. IMO Young is 5th choice and only if Valencia ISN'T on the pitch.
Kagawa was unfortunate, as he was signed without RvP being realistically expected to join.
Chicha played almost as many games as Welbeck. 36 games, 18 goals, not bad for a 3rd choice striker!
The problem I have is with RvP out I'd like to see Kagawa behind Rooney, but also want Chicha given games... I don't want to eat the cake but the whole bakery!
And rightly so. Much like with Januzaj, you want those players given a shot as well, which makes the hard on with Young and Valencia being untouchable really baffling.
I do agree his starting selections haven't been far off what SAF would have done and even the sound ones all things considered.
Two major deviations though:
1. SAF could afford slow starts and then threw the kitchen sink if needed, while Moyes isn't yet as adept or comfortable enough with the squad and his position to take those risks.
2. I thought the entire point of Fellaini partnering Carrick was to give more room for the wingers to be less concerned with defensive duties. As it stands we have gone more conservative in midfield while retaining the "defensive/workrate" wing pair.
I won't go into "still conceding goals" on the back of one game where the rivals also played very well, but we clearly need to be more adventurous.
Moyes saw his side lose to Liverpool and be thrashed 4-1 by rivals Manchester City in a difficult opening start to the Premier League, but has now won five of his first eight games in all competitions - the best start of any new United manager since Matt Busby in 1946.
Facht!
Facht!
Go compare the 2000 squad to the one he handed over to Moyes. Marked change AWAY from that.
Nani's contract situation was a big part of the issue, or at least that seemed to be the case.
Mind, I have no beef with Valencia or even Young, I just wouldn't consider them both starters. It's the most one dimensional combo we have available. IMO Young is 5th choice and only if Valencia ISN'T on the pitch.
Kagawa was unfortunate, as he was signed without RvP being realistically expected to join.
Chicha played almost as many games as Welbeck. 36 games, 18 goals, not bad for a 3rd choice striker!
The problem I have is with RvP out I'd like to see Kagawa behind Rooney, but also want Chicha given games... I don't want to eat the cake but the whole bakery!
And rightly so. Much like with Januzaj, you want those players given a shot as well, which makes the hard on with Young and Valencia being untouchable really baffling.
I do agree his starting selections haven't been far off what SAF would have done and even the sound ones all things considered.
Two major deviations though:
1. SAF could afford slow starts and then threw the kitchen sink if needed, while Moyes isn't yet as adept or comfortable enough with the squad and his position to take those risks.
2. I thought the entire point of Fellaini partnering Carrick was to give more room for the wingers to be less concerned with defensive duties. As it stands we have gone more conservative in midfield while retaining the "defensive/workrate" wing pair.
I won't go into "still conceding goals" on the back of one game where the rivals also played very well, but we clearly need to be more adventurous.
Point 2 is an amazingly sweeping assumption after one game, away from home, against one of the best teams in the league.
Did you read the last line? You know, the one straight after that "sweeping assumption" I made a point of saying we shouldn't read too much into the City result.
Point is that a big part of the benefit of getting Fellaini was having more freedom for creative players further up the pitch so I certainly expect to see more of that over the next few months and not Young-Valencia. I'm not sold on Kagawa-Nani being the right wide combination but Young-Valencia haven't done it for a very long time now and the main benefit from having that combo (helping at the back) should be a lot less relevant.
Overall I'm saying we need to be more adventurous going forward. Is that really debatable?
I made a point of saying we shouldn't read too much into the City result.Point is that a big part of the benefit of getting Fellaini was having more freedom for creative players further up the pitch so I certainly expect to see more of that over the next few months and not Young-Valencia. I'm not sold on Kagawa-Nani being the right wide combination but Young-Valencia haven't done it for a very long time now and the main benefit from having that combo (helping at the back) should be a lot less relevant.
Overall I'm saying we need to be more adventurous going forward. Is that really debatable?
All competitions including the Charity Shield...is that it? No. They did feck up and it ain't a facht. FOF had a better start. See if you can work that out, those of you who insist on calling him DM, which just doesn't look right. Until he's knighted and becomes SDM (er, that looks bad too) he must be called Moyes, or David, or Dave. Possibly Moyesie. Though that looks like shit in print. Moysie? No. Looks shit too. Looks like some girl you once knew. Ah, Moysie - the one with the large 'uns and who was easier than Macie. It won't do. It will have to be Moyes. Or Dave, when we're feeling, you know, warm and fuzzy.
Is the stat best start by a new manager relevant at all? To me it sounds a bit like the phrase "he'll be the highest paid player in the history of the club" which is in tandem with salaries so means nothing. While not the same thing, I just think that Moyes probably took over the best United team (in context) a new manager has had.
Saying that, whilst we've had a pretty poor start (I hardly think it can be disputed) we're in luck as no other team has really started great.
FWIW I thought it was promising to hear him talk about change and that it would take a while. It at least hints at a plan. And for him to be able to field a weakened side against the best Liverpool have to offer in a must win game and get away with it tells me that he's got the confidence of the squad...crucial.
Main worries is the coaching staff, it might work out great, but there is hardly any top drawer experience there. It all makes for an interesting season though
Saying that, whilst we've had a pretty poor start (I hardly think it can be disputed) we're in luck as no other team has really started great.
FWIW I thought it was promising to hear him talk about change and that it would take a while. It at least hints at a plan. And for him to be able to field a weakened side against the best Liverpool have to offer in a must win game and get away with it tells me that he's got the confidence of the squad...crucial.
Main worries is the coaching staff, it might work out great, but there is hardly any top drawer experience there. It all makes for an interesting season though
It means nought in my book because it's all relative and not static, that's just the result bit. Then there's the performances and they've been rather hit and miss. It has been a tough set of fixtures, which also put things into perspective.
He is not doing to bad.
It's such a restrictive perspective though. Who did they play? When did they play them? How were the teams back then? How was our team back then? Any injuries? And so on....
There are so many factors that put things into relative terms that it becomes a rather moot and pointless comparison.
There are so many factors that put things into relative terms that it becomes a rather moot and pointless comparison.
Celebrates goals much better than Fergie ...... he'll do for me. Liked his fist pump to the Stretty as he walked off last night too.
Yes I agree, but it shows that he is not doing that badly and all the muppets calling for his head (not on here I have to say) need to have a some patience.
More than the confidence of the squad I hope it means he gets more confident about the squad. I don't think we've necessarily had the best XI the last few seasons but far and away the best squad and that's what wins the league.
His safe first choice XI lost to Liverpool (at Anfield, granted) and his second string beat them even with a returning Suárez who is not unfit enough to be as bad as Aspas. There's a reading to be made there in terms of the need for rotation and how there isn't as significant a drop in quality as at a club like Everton.
While I appreciate the point that the squad was fine and it was first team starting quality that he should be seeking in the market, it smacked of wanting to have a better established starting XI which I'm not sure is the best thing to focus on in his first season. You just can't rely on a given starting XI when you fight on many fronts like we do.
He needs to play Young and Valencia less and more Nani /kagawa / Janujasz / Zaha. I would put an untried and untested ahead of the pathetic Young.
But he's absolutely right. We've got a good squad, terrific squad, which has helped us greatly in league success in recent years. But we've fallen behind in Europe and don't regularly produce quality (we do get results at times) in the big games. That's because we don't have an XI that has enough quality. We do need the injection of a top quality player or two.
Did you enjoy the win yesterday? Nice, wasn't it? Look, man - you need to go out and smell some flowers. Get some action. Or some sweet poison in your system. Read some poetry, I don't fecking know - you just need to lighten the feck up. I mean it - really. It's just a football team and all that - see the thing?
As said, I appreciate that and agree with it. I'm not fond of trying to do too much in one go though, that's what your average slash and burn new manager does and it rarely pans out well.
I've written off Europe as far as this season goes. Would be happy to be pleasantly surprised, but the focus should be on the new manager settling in, getting to grips with the squad at his disposal, getting to know how much he can get from them in different situations, etc.
We have a squad that can and should be challenging for the league, he doesn't need new players to do that. Focus on that, ensure you are getting the most out of the available squad and next Summer make the calls on the 2-3 ins and outs that may be required to move from league challenging/champions to European challengers.
Conversely, try put together a great XI and play it week in week out and you will get nowhere on both fronts and alienate valuable squad members who are happy to have an important squad role but not to just be perma-benched material. We are not miles away but we would be if we start losing the strength in depth or don't use it appropriately.
The last month or so there have been exceptional circumstances, but let's kick on from here contemplating the entire squad and what it can deliver.
Fair enough, cant argue with any of that as you have lived through that time while i can only speculate. The reason I think the pressure is more now is I would imagine us akin to the present liverpool at that time, a big club who would require a miracle to win the league and go on to dominate english football once again. For us that miracle for SAF.
I don't think the pressure is any greater or the fans expectations any higher today than it was pre Fergie. What has changed is the money that clubs like Chelsea or City has access to. The bar has been raised and we have to spend big keep up. If you drop out of the top four for two or three years now days, unless you have the resources of Chelsea or City you may not get back in. That's why I don't think Moyes has 2 or 3 years to get it right.
Moyes doesn't need three years to "get it right", he already has the required squad and resources to challenge, let alone stay in the top 4.
I find this "getting it right" and "fixing United" talk bizarre, it implies there's something broken. Is there?
I find this "getting it right" and "fixing United" talk bizarre, it implies there's something broken. Is there?
I agree with this. People are overplaying the "settling in" card. It's acceptable to an extent and understandable that he is trying to justify our poor performances against big teams in the league.
I just don't understand his logic in the whole "tough run of games so I'll pick a team and stick with it" philosophy that we have heard.
If we were performing well or even adequately then absolutely, keep playing the in form players until we have gotten out of the traps. But putting dismal displays in against Liverpool, City an Chelsea means we should have been trying to freshen things up a bit. Rio was obviously struggling and hasn't normally been playing every single game for us - we should have utilised Evans, Smalling or Jones at least in the easier games to avoid Rio getting knackered.
Similarly we all know young and Valencia hadn't been setting the world on fire. Even if you play the fitness card (which has flaws of its own anyway) you can't surely be saying that all of Nani, Kagawa, Janujaz and Zaha have been struggling for fitness.
Even were that the case, we had the option of putting Rooney on the left and playing Hernandez with RVP dropping deep. We have Giggs, Welbeck and Cleverley who are pretty positionally versatile. I wouldn't have minded Fabio or Buttner being given a shot on the wing if we were really desperate.
Point is, we had plenty of options, any of those who I listed above could've easily done a job against palace or maybe Swansea. We had no need to stick religiously with a combination that was not performing. Again - no goals from open play in the league since Swansea. That's a pretty damning statistic still.
If we aren't scoring from open play then that means we are not creating enough or not putting away the chances. Either way, we have a deep enough squad and enough personnel to remedy this but we chose to persist with the formula which wasn't working.
I can understand why Moyes would adopt this strategy of keeping as consistent a line-up as possible during this tough start. There is some logic to it.
The squad is inadequate to compete properly with the very best. That should have been clear from the City game and indeed the one against Liverpool in the league. We should have beaten Chelsea but didn't. Can anyone honestly say that our first team squad would be able to conquer the likes of Bayern, Barca, Real and Dortmund at the moment? I think not. We are some way off the pace in Europe and have been for some time now. There are too many question marks over too many players. Understandably Moyes wants to see what he has before casting final judgement but there's no doubt that had there been proper planning and execution as well as, who knows, adequate financial backing during the transfer window, we would have seen at least two new players of quality arrive - perhaps more. Had that been done we would probably have had Baines on board as well as a quality midfielder with Fellaini remaining at Everton. What this illustrated was that Moyes, despite wanting to see "what was already available", also realised that the squad needed strengthening. That's still the case and it has to be acknowledged that it was only through Fergie's forceful and winning personality that this team actually won the league last year. He got them to play probably 10%-15% above themselves. That's a difficult ask for Moyes to do the same in such a short time. He'll no doubt do it in his own way not Fergie's. Indeed he is going to need time to hopefully mould the current team plus additions into ECL winners again. Anyone expecting things to continue as they have done under Fergie, without any sort of hiccup, are a little naïve I think.
I just dont understand why 7 competitive games into the season people are resorting to desperately debating about the win percentages of different starting United managers.
I honestly don't think Moyes is going to get a fair and full chance.
I honestly don't think Moyes is going to get a fair and full chance.
That stat is equally irrelevant as the negative ones put forward by media like, after Chelsea game: "Moyes still to win at OT" and others. Regarding 5/8 stat: On positive side for Moyes, I doubt the previous managers had such a tough start. On the other hand, Moyes inherited title winning squad which others in the list didn't.
Conclusion: Such stats are irrelevant.
I don't think Glazers would have offered Moyes a 6 years contract if they would be so gullible to let public hysteria sway their decision especially when SAF and Sir Bobby are still there and will be involved in such a decision making.
Electronic press has a lot to answer. Sheer madness how everything is scrutinised these days.
The fact that even after a good win against our most hated of rivals people are willing to hunt for things to criticise in slips of the tongue and expressions used in the immediate aftermath of the game shows all that's wrong with fans today.
Press conference is at 2pm BST today, apparently.
Do agree it's ridiculous. There's nothing wrong with criticism when it's part of a constructive debate but micro-analysing everything someone says to find fault as part of an agenda is stupid.
Some of the things Moyes has said so far have been a bit confusing, low-rent or at times downright peculiar, but the difference with United to Everton is everything will be picked up on or analysed.
He is not doing to bad.
O'Farrell had five wins, two draws and one loss = 63%
Moyes has had five wins, one draw, and two losses = 63%
However, Moyes should be in third place based on other three results...
In fact, after ten games and onwards up to first 20 games...O'Farrell's record is better than Matt Busby's.
BBC just twisting facts to suit themselves.
Don't think he has got enough credit he deserves, playing that starting 11 against Liverpool and getting the win.
He's doing just fine IMO.
People have short memory and tend to jump on the back of someone just because media does it.
Last season title was great, but somehow most people forgot first half of it and United goals leaking and constant coming from behind to snatch a win.
From the treatmen he's getting it makes Sir Alex even more godesque (perhaps made up word), and performances like Athletic Bilbao both legs, or loss to Wigan away seems like never happend, it was all beautfull football 26 years running.
Moyes needs time and patience from the supporters to asess the squad, because Sir Alex didn't do him any favors by buying potential instead of proven players. He could get extra something from those players, but that doesn't mean Moyes can, or for that matter, any other manager.
That's why he said in his interview that squad is full but what United need is proven players capable of making starting eleven immediately and think that will be the case, him getting 2,3 players that will instantly boost up first eleven.
People have short memory and tend to jump on the back of someone just because media does it.
Last season title was great, but somehow most people forgot first half of it and United goals leaking and constant coming from behind to snatch a win.
From the treatmen he's getting it makes Sir Alex even more godesque (perhaps made up word), and performances like Athletic Bilbao both legs, or loss to Wigan away seems like never happend, it was all beautfull football 26 years running.
Moyes needs time and patience from the supporters to asess the squad, because Sir Alex didn't do him any favors by buying potential instead of proven players. He could get extra something from those players, but that doesn't mean Moyes can, or for that matter, any other manager.
That's why he said in his interview that squad is full but what United need is proven players capable of making starting eleven immediately and think that will be the case, him getting 2,3 players that will instantly boost up first eleven.
Errr... that' not really what I was getting at. I think settling in is the main challenge this year. It's not easy for a manager to get to grips with his squad, manage it well, give everyone a fair shot and arrive at the right conclusions when half the world and their mum is scrutinising you and your record (i.e. biased to stick to a narrow core of players).
All I'm saying is that settling in could explain the difference between winning the league by 12 points or losing it by 10 or so, but falling out of the Top 4 should not be in the cards at all.
You are going to the other extreme. SAFs last couple of years were like that, how can we expect Moyes to instantly better his recent record?
I don't see any hugely worrying signs from these early games. If before the start of the season you offered me to get Chelsea h, City a and Liverpool a out of the way without falling behind more than three points from our rivals I would have bitten your hand off.
We now have 5 league games where we are big favourites to win all - if we do that or even come close (11 points or more) we will not be far behind the top, as the other top-teams will play each other a few times and I can't see any team pick up more than 12 points in the next 5 games.
Really? What happens if there's less than a 10 point spread between first and fourth place?
Fergie-esque, some would say.
If there's a 10 point spread between 1st and 4th I would fancy us to win it or be top two, it would indicate the league gets won with 70-80 points at most.
I'm not with you. What's the correlation between the points total of the winner and the order in which the top 5 finish?
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