Shinji Kagawa
- Thread starter Baby Faced Assassin
- Start date
-
In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik (@Rood) is joined by CEO Duncan Drasdo and Financial Director Andy Green from the Manchester United Supporters Trust for a special episode on all things behind the scenes at Old Trafford including a brief history of MUST and their aims today, views on INEOS and Sir Jim Ratcliffe so far, and the Old Trafford regeneration.
- Status
please man... you were the one that said Januzaj did in 90min more than Kagawa since he signed.
Nani has shown us in the past what he can do, so he has that on Kagawa. Valencia plays on the other wing. Young is shit, but I was more talking about Wellbeck, Nani and Januzaj. The idea he can play centrally at the expense of RVP or Rooney is even more unlikely. While I'm on it, I'd start Kagawa ahead of Wellbeck in all positions except up top centrally.
im just saying the problem is not the system. So hard to understand?
Moyes doesn't trust him and that's all... its sad because Shinji is a top player.
Why? I was clearly concentrating on only one point (which is why I bolded it) and used it as lead in.
Because Kagawa would be the first classy player to not make it at a top club for one reason or the other? What about players like Veron, Snejder, Robben, Ibrahimovic, etc.? All not good enough?
This has to be one of the most sweeping arguments I have ever seen on here. Football is not that simple. There are a huge amount of different setups, formations and player types. Sometimes it just does not fit. The argument that other CAM´s also started wide does also not hold much ground, because United´s system in terms of width has become quite a rarity on top level. Playing on the left side at Dortmund and playing it at United are for example two completey different things.
The truth is that at the point of the transfer Kagawa was never meant to be played the way he was and still is. I bet, that he was meant to be played behind Rooney in the first place. The upcoming chance to sign the best striker of the EPL (a chance United had to take) screwed him over, though. To still use Kagawa SAF tried to convert him to a wide player, which is not working out.
All in all, one big misunderstanding with Kagawa being the biggest loser of it.
Calling him a 'retarded man' is really pushing it. No need for personal attack.
what? rewriting history?
Go read your post again. He's started 3 games this season and not done much at all.
Why the feck should Moyes start him ahead of Rooney and Januzaj who've looked more impressive than he has?
Agree with all of that.
Personally, I'd play him over Valencia too for the selfish reason that were more likely to play the football I want yo see us play with him instead.
Overall, I'd say that he's showing himself to be a bit too dependant on a kind of system, and has to show that he can be as good as he was alt Dortmund at a different kind of system. Although I can't say I actually personally like our system and would rather see that change either way.
True. Its just frustrating... anyway, i hope im wrong and he actually has a plan for a player of the calibre of Kagawa.
I feel your frustrating, GO. But Moyes given chances to Januzaz, give me hope that player like Kagawa has a place in the team.
Whilst still ignoring what Adnan did yesterday, and where on the pitch he did it, and where he nominally started. If we have him able to do that, why should we juggle the team to fit a player who may not suit the league. That has happened too. Veron didn't do much better at Stamford Bridge. And on Veron, he was amazing for us in Europe, so at that it's a poor comparison. Also Ibra scored a good few goals at Barca, 16 in 28 games I think.. Robben too was not that bad at Real for periods. I'd like to accentuate the positives of any United player, but youtube clips from Dortmund are getting a bit tired now.
I'm not saying you are wrong to highlight what you are highlighting, but to use your own words, football is not that simple. Even with the systemic differences Kagawa needs to show more for us to have enough faith in him to change our whole way of playing to accommodate.
Also, this is the first time I've been told a player struggles because he has too much space.
How can he possibly do that when Moyes refuses to give him a good run of games in his best position? Obviously Kagawa can adapt to our style. He just needs to play more, preferably behind the main striker.
People need to keep a few things in mind:
1. Kagawa will never become as good for us as he was for Dortmund, if we keep playing him on the wing. He can become very good, yes, but not nearly on the same level as his Dortmund days.
2. Kagawa needs playtime more than the typical individualist, simply because he's a teamplayer in every sense of the word. It's much easier for players like Hernandez, Nani and even Welbeck to start a game every once in a while and do well. That is not Kagawa's game.
3. Seeing as our style is so different from the style he thrives in, he needs even more playtime in order to adapt to us.
If you don't want us to change our style even slightly in order to get the best out of Kagawa, then you at least need to be fecking patient. He's not suddenly gonna get used to players not moving around him.
And if you after reading this want Kagawa to feck off because he can't adapt to our dire attacking football in light-speed, then keep in mind that Ferguson, aka The Greatest Manager of All Time, signed Kagawa in order for us to change our style. He had big plans for Kagawa, and rated him highly. Had he still been our coach, then there's no question that he'd be a sure starter, like he was at the end of last season.
Nice formatting.
That is a key position and requires us dropping or moving one of our best two attackers. If anyone expects us to do that then they really can't expect us to do that based on anything he has done in a United shirt.
Also, calm down, feeling he hasn't done enough for us to restructure our whole team on top of losing our manager and CEO is a long way from wanting him to feck off. And nobody is being impatient except the people wanting us to rejig the side to accommodate him.
And if he takes 2 months of playing time to adapt, is that worth it? Is it feck, we are 6 points off the top now and it's borderline hysteria. If that's what Kagawa needs, then he needs to do it a less demanding club.
He wasn't fit at the start of the season, and it's all been a bit tits up so far, so I would say to you that you are the one that needs to show patience. If Kagawa is good enough Moyes will play him, but right now, we have bigger problems. We need the ship settled. And rejigging to fit Kagawa is not realistic.
I gotta say, unlike the typical fanbois we've had on these boards for years, you do make some valid point and you're not completely blinded by "your" player.
I couldn't agree anymore with your point number 3). Utd play a football so much different from Dortmund that it was gonna be a tough task for him to replicate his performances here (without mentioning the lack of playing time).
The signing of van Persie really fecked Kagawa over, assuming the initial plan was to play him behind Rooney. But as soon as Robin became available it was a no brainer.
I'm 99% sure it was. Andy Mitten wrote that Kagawa was signed in order to change our attacking style into a more "international" style. Rooney and Rio were both opposed to us signing him for this very reason. They wanted us to keep "The United Way".
I have been pretty patient up until now, because I know that Moyes' task is difficult. But I just can't see why he can't even find room for Kagawa, a player that did more than enough last season to suggest that he'd be a sure starter by now.
Kagawa really is the elephant in the room. In all my years as a football supporter, I can safely say that I have never seen a player not being played cause more uproar. It's almost always the other way around, namely people complaining about "crappy" players playing too much. It's human nature to focus on the bad things. That's why it's so amazing(and a bit touching) to see so many supporters, both from our club and opposing clubs, agreeing that Kagawa is way too good to be on the bench. I think that speaks volumes. The "common majority" is of course not always right, but in this cause I think we are. Hence the rarity of the situation. People actually being angry because a player isn't playing? That's just crazy! I never thought I would see it to such an extent as I'm seeing right now, and frankly, it gives me more faith in humanity. I'm so sick and tired of all the people castrating players like Young. It's better to focus on the players that aren't playing, but should play. And that is what we're doing with the Kagawa situation.
Hell, even Andy Mitten, one the most respected United "sources", has more or less joined the "play Kagawa" bandwagon. That is maybe the most surprising thing so far, because he's not the type to have that sort of focus.
Wow. Just listen to the Everton fans on how they think Barkley should've played much more last season. Just listen to Chelsea fans on Mata. It happens at multiple clubs every season.
Also;
Ooops, I should have added that I meant among United players.
Not much need for explaining. I was mistaken initially. I think they've both started three games this season.
Explain to me the difference in getting rid off Hernandez and Kagawa.
I can't remember any of them causing nearly this much uproar for not being played enough.
Expand on this Rooney/Rio issue, because I'm calling bullshit.
Tevez in particular had a huge fan movement to get him more games and the whole "Fergie, Fergie sign him up" chants when he did play.
Link here. Scroll down for English version.
--
I don't think Mitten would have called out Rooney and Rio's names if he wasn't fairly sure that they were opposed to the new ideas. Mitten's no joker pulling things out of his ass to get readers.
You're joking right? He called our manager retarded!
Probably because you act like an obsessed teenage girl when it comes to Kagawa and didn't care nearly as much about Tevez. Or maybe that was before your time as a football fan? Dunno. There was a huge uproar over him in any case. It really was a weekly thing.
I lost my cool when I saw the lineup, and since I was on my phone I couldn't bother to write the walls of text that I usually do. Calling Moyes retarded summed up my feelings, though it's obviously an exaggerration. I regret it, but I'm still pissed off he couldn't even find a spot for Kagawa yet again.
I didn't start posting and reading weekly about football before 2008/2009, and that was mainly in Norwegian forums. So yeah, that would explain why I didn't catch the Tevez uproar. Before that, I only really got my football "news" from newspapers and official websites. I never really got an insight in the average United supporter's mindset, seeing as I don't live in Manchester.
Oh, and nice personal attacks. 40k posts well spent I see
Who's spot would have given him? you'd have to drop Rooney or Januzaj, who was pretty much everything that Kagawa hasn't been yet in a United shirt.
He does have a plan, it's called January sales
Why can't Kagawa impose himself on games like Januzaj did yesterday? That's what I've been banging on about for a while with Kagawa. Some nice little touches etc but doesn't impose himself enough. He needs to improve on that aspect or he'll never be a regular and pretty sure he'll be gone in the summer if it continues.
There were SO many ways of including Kagawa into that lineup:
1. Let him play behind the striker and bench either Rooney or RVP. The latter because he's not really been that good this season, and the former because he keeps losing the ball and hasn't scored a goal from open play since the opening game against Swansea.
2. Let him play on the left instead of Januzaj. The kid had an awesome game, but let's not kid ourselves: he played way above expectation, and any sane manager would have played Kagawa ahead of him. It was a gamble that payed off. Hindsight is a bitch.
3. But let's say Januzaj was so impressive in training that he had to play. Moyes could still have played him on the right, and Kagawa on the left(or the other way around).
There always seems to be a reason not to play Kagawa. Weird that Fergie didn't see the same reasons last season, when Kagawa started roughly 75% of the time he wasn't injured. Did the inclusion of Januzaj really stir things up that much?
Do not buy that at all.
Rio seems to really like Kagawa. At the parade this year he was trying to get the crowd to chant for him. The only reason I could see Rooney stating he wasn't in favour was because he was worried for his position.
Kagawa is not deserved of a position in our team atm. Januzaj has shown a lot more than him at a younger age with less time on the pitch. All this fanboy behaviour of the team should change to adapt to him is pathetic. He is not worthy of that and at no stage is a player bigger than the club.
If Kagawa is professional he'll up his performance and make Moyes have no choice but to play him. Now is the perfect time for him to grab an opportunity with our attackers being inconsistent. His best chance now is to make the wing position his own, because despite how much some people would like to see him as our number 10 he's simply not going to displace Rooney.
I didn't start posting and reading weekly about football before 2008/2009, and that was mainly in Norwegian forums. So yeah, that would explain why I didn't catch the Tevez uproar. Before that, I only really got my football "news" from newspapers and official websites. I never really got an insight in the average United supporter's mindset, seeing as I don't live in Manchester.
Oh, and nice personal attacks. 40k posts well spent I see
It's not a personal attack it's a simple observation. It's like saying I spend too much time on an internet forum. That's not an attack at all. Reading one of your posts about Kagawa is like listening to my little cousins' conversations about One Direction. It's bizarre how emotional you get over someone that isn't even aware of your existence and is getting paid millions for this terrible tragedy he has to endure.
- Status