Silva and Mata are saddled with less defensive responsibilities, partly because they have the likes of Ramires, Mikel, Kolarov, to do the dirty work, and they play in front of 3 man midfields. If you play on the left/right wing at United, because of our midfield's lack of hustle, you're going to have to track back and put in a shift, unless you're at Ronaldo's level.
Shinji Kagawa
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Silva and Mata are saddled with less defensive responsibilities, partly because they have the likes of Ramires, Mikel, Kolarov, to do the dirty work, and they play in front of 3 man midfields. If you play on the left/right wing at United, because of our midfield's lack of hustle, you're going to have to track back and put in a shift, unless you're at Ronaldo's level.
Kagawa played well in the CL, much less so in the Stoke match. I think it'd be fruitful to stick with 4-2-3-1, with RVP and Rooney playing, and two out of Kagawa, Januzaj and Valencia as Moyes wishes.
Nani was simply awful against Stoke and Young is simply poor. I'd like to see Zaha too, but Moyes seems to be taking his time with him.
Nani was simply awful against Stoke and Young is simply poor. I'd like to see Zaha too, but Moyes seems to be taking his time with him.
Ahhhh... The stupid... It actually hurts!
First of all: when Kagawa was playing for Dortmund(and Cerezo), he had players(fullbacks and WINGERS) running on both sides of him. Don't you think that this makes a lot of difference?!
When Kagawa plays on the left and drifts in, he has no winger making runs on his left side. Rooney/RVP have to drop away from their position(which they obviously can't do all the time). This makes all the difference in the world for a player who's not good at dribbling, nor the type of individualist who can do all the work on his own. His first instinct is to pass and move, until he's in a good position to score/assist. He's in that sense nothing like Silva or Mata, who are both very capable wingers. In fact, playing them on the wing makes very little difference. You might as well call them wingers. I haven't bothered to check out their entire background, but I'm fairly sure that they both have a long history of wing play. That gives them a huge advantage over Kagawa in that position. Kagawa is as "central-minded" as a player can be. When we play him on the wing, we isolate too many of his natural abilities.
The pot calling the kettle black there.
First things first Kagawa does not play for Dortmund, why his fanboys feel that is the yard stick to judge him by I never understand. At Dortmund the team is about the sum of it parts, not individuals. We do not play like Dortmund, so regardless of his position on the pitch he has to adapt.
So now he does play central but has no option to pass to on LW? At what end do we stop making excuses for him? So Silva and Mata are both capable wingers, both of whom you aren't even sure have a history of playing wide. Last season Mata played centrally and Mourinho created uproar at the start of the season when he said Mata had to adapt to a wide role as Oscar was his number 10. Despite slight tactical differences with his wide role at United and Japan, Kagawa has experience and a little pedigree playing wide.
You're right the stupid does start to hurt.
Is this not a trait that we as a team should be working towards? The team that won 3 titles between 2006 and 2009 had that trait in my opinion, any team that could integrate the likes of O'Shea with no drop in quality has it. It's like buying Xavi and expecting him to send ball after ball to Valencia for the cross.
That's a different debate.
Yes I believe we should be striving for a Dortmund-esque level of performance, but we do not play that way now, and we are unlikely to completely replicate their style in the foreseeable. Due to this Kagawa needs to adapt
Then how come Kagawa has looked just as good as he was in his Dortmund years whenever he's played behind the striker after he came back from his injury? Is it just a coinscidence that he has roughly a goal/assist every 20-30 minutes, countless key passes, and looks like a reborn player?
... and here you pretty much show that you don't understand the complexities of football at all. When you fail to see the difference between playing on the left wing and playing behind the striker, refuses to believe that not all AMs have the same skillset and background, and tops it off by saying that there's only a SLIGHT difference between Japan and United's wingplay, you really make yourself look like an idiot to anyone who understands football and has followed Kagawa long before he came to United.
Hyperbole at its finest. Proof stats can be manipulated. He scored a hattrick in a 20minute spell as a number 10.
You might call me an idiot, but you are thinking very highly of yourself, and considering you come across as a huge Kagawa fanboy its hard to take anything you say in regards to him seriously, let alone your comments having any form of impartiality. The following line was enough for me not to consider anything you say seriously,
He's in that sense nothing like Silva or Mata, who are both very capable wingers. In fact, playing them on the wing makes very little difference. You might as well call them wingers. I haven't bothered to check out their entire background, but I'm fairly sure that they both have a long history of wing play.
... and then there's his 2 assists in two other games. And the match against Sociedad where he didn't even score or assist, but still had 10 great minutes. My point is that Kagawa has delivered every single time in the no.10 role since he got back from his injury. Say otherwise, and you have a vendetta against the player.
Do you know anything about Silva or Mata's early careers? My guess is that you don't, because if you did, then you'd definitely use the arguments against me. And if you do actually know something about their past but choose not to use the information as arguments, then it only means that you're able to see that my guess was right all along. Whatever it is, you lose.
Anyways, the whole point of that sentence was to highlight that Kagawa is different to Mata and Silva. I'm pretty damn sure that none of them started their careers as defensive midfielders like Kagawa did.
I think it's about time some of you guys start to realize that just because Kagawa is small and tidy on the ball, he's not a new Silva or Mata. He's Kagawa. He has his own style and skillset. If Silva and Mata are more useful because of their ability to play on the left, then so be it. Kagawa still has the potential to surpass them both behind the main striker anyways. And that is what matters. Who the hell came up with the idea that players need to be nearly equally good in two positions? Aren't we allowed to have a few specialists anymore?
feck me. You are a psychopath.
If you want to start telling people he's going to be better than Mata, or Iniesta, or whoever else then he's going to need to be able to adapt like practically every other top attacker in the world. There's players out there like the two mentioned, like Cavani, Bale, Ronaldo, Messi, Ozil, Cazorla, Fabregas, Rooney, Aguero, Toure, Muller, Gotze and countless others who have shown the ability to adapt quicker than Kagawa has so far.
I'd like to see the tempo of our football increase and the movement needs work, but it's not going to happen overnight and we're not going to turn into Dortmund or Japan quickly. If the team is not playing well, the best players around wont sit there and moan that they're playing 6 yards out of position. They'll make something happen with some inspirational play or ability to create something out of nothing. A bit like that 18 year old has done already.
Talking to people like you're Kagawa's dad and nobody else has seen him play is seriously fecking annoying.
If you want to start telling people he's going to be better than Mata, or Iniesta, or whoever else then he's going to need to be able to adapt like practically every other top attacker in the world. There's players out there like the two mentioned, like Cavani, Bale, Ronaldo, Messi, Ozil, Cazorla, Fabregas, Rooney, Aguero, Toure, Muller, Gotze and countless others who have shown the ability to adapt quicker than Kagawa has so far.
I'd like to see the tempo of our football increase and the movement needs work, but it's not going to happen overnight and we're not going to turn into Dortmund or Japan quickly. If the team is not playing well, the best players around wont sit there and moan that they're playing 6 yards out of position. They'll make something happen with some inspirational play or ability to create something out of nothing. A bit like that 18 year old has done already.
Talking to people like you're Kagawa's dad and nobody else has seen him play is seriously fecking annoying.
Compelling argument, Einstein.
There are tons of top class players who are only truly top class in one position. Strikers like RVP, CMs like Carrick, the vast majority of defenders and even a fair share of wingers will have a lot of their natural abilities isolated when played out of their comfort zone, despite being brilliant players otherwise. Who the hell decided that AMs can't be specialists?
I'll stop when people start producing some good arguments against me. There's a lot of mistaken facts and assumptions still being brought to the Kagawa discussion. Someone needs to set the record straight. I'll gladly be that person, even if it makes me an unpopular poster.
But that's really only half the story. I want us to play better football, and a player like Kagawa is the key for us to acheive that. I truly believe this, and wont stop believing it until I'm proved otherwise.
I'm positively sure that there would have been a lot more posters like me in here if we signed Özil and we kept playing him on the wing.
Einstein was well renowned for his sense of humour and your post was hysterical fanboyism. There really is no objective discussion with you around Shinji. You say you want proof, yet numerous posters have provided this and you continue to ignore it and continue to spout your usual crap.
I found it comical you stated I had an agenda, like you are completely agenda free in this thread. I, like every United supporter want our players to succeed. But I'm not as delusional as some that believe any criticism levied towards him means there is some kind of Moyes fronted illuminati conspiracy.
Your "evidence" for your defence of him comes from a very specific amount of hand chosen games, where every United fan accepts he played well. It's the other 99% of his time on the pitch he's flattered to deceive. It's even more frustrating when people claim he doesn't get to play in his preferred position yet he is more often than not found to be in the number 10 position. Steven Seagull summed it up very well, like it or not he has to adapt to United, not the other way round. The sooner you, and all the other Kagawa apologists realise this the better the debates will become.
There is absolutely no proof against my claim, which has always been: Kagawa playing consistently in the no.10 role will benefit our team. Until we see him get a good run there now that he's no longer new to the PL, there's no way of knowing if he'll be a success or not. Though I must say that my arguments strengthen Kagawa's case a lot more than you lot's arguments against that claim.. Arguments like "Rooney and RVP are too good to be dropped" or "Kagawa hasn't proved enough on the left wing", have very little to do with my claim.
Unless you guys start to realize that playing on the left wing and cutting in isn't the same as playing behind the main striker, the discussion is never gonna progress..
There's no proof for your claim, which isn't even a claim, it's subjective opinion based on very little.
Unless you start to realise that when he plays on the left wing, he rarely cuts in, rather he floats into the 10 position and occupies the space you are crying out for for him to occupy the discussion will never progress...
Unless you are absolutely the top guy in your position, like RVP, a forward needs to be adaptable in order to get games and thrive. Shinji could learn from the 18 year old who will surpass him very soon if he does not buck up his ideas.
We might as well all stop posting then and just let Mad Wanker tell us what's what.
Yes - but in the name of the baby Jesus, is there anyone here that hasn't realized this? The problem is that for a team like United, in our present state, it may not be viable to field your man behind the main striker. And it might even be that your man won't thrive in that role for us, automatically, because we play with only sporadic fluency and allround movement at the moment. It might be, in short, that your man has to alter his game somewhat in order to make a true impression here. If a player who is adept at playing behind the striker, as you say, in one system - is incapable of playing as a "tucked-in winger slash wide playmaker of sorts in a free role", in a different system...well, then perhaps he simply doesn't have what it takes, and one might reasonably claim that this is more about a shortcoming on his part than anything else.
See the thing? As a possibility, I mean. And I don't like to say this, because I really like your man - I think he's a very good footballer. But you are, at the moment, looking more like his personal PR assistant than anything else.
There is little doubt he is a very gifted, and classy footballer. Maybe he has lost his belief, or it's a confidence issue. It's very clear he is playing within himself - playing it too safe and rarely plays, or even worse tries to play a risky killer ball. Another massive issue is he rubbish at closing down and his tackling is on par with Scholesy.
We get it everyone, Mad Winger is a huge fan of Kagawa, that fact does not need to be brought up every fecking argument.
Yes, by just reading this page, I would say there are people who don't realize this.
It's gone a bit over the top.
I think Kagawa won't work here. But I want him to work because it means better football for United. He's being forced to adopt to a static style, which is, basically shit to watch and has been for three or so years now. We should be using players like Kagawa and Januzaj as much as possible
And Rooney and RVP just don't play well together.
But I look forward trying to shoehorn a player into a system where he doesn't fit instead of just selling him and getting a player who fits better.
In the current system with them along side each other, you're right, they don't link up well but they can play well together, that's proven when Rooney is deeper and linking the play.
I wouldn't bother, we've tried pointing it out to him numerous times but he still doesn't understand, instead trying to make bullshit excuses.
Lets first understand the strength of player before continuing this left wing bullshite talks. You don't play your best finisher in defense, nor will you play your best tackler in forward position. Kagawa, by all means, his real strength is playmaking in tight space, by doing nice turns and sublime weight of passing. You just don't play this type of player on the left in traditional 442 wingers type of formation. You just don't.
Jesus Christ. People really do see what they want to see.
This post needs to be quoted on every page of this thread.
Kagawa hardly played at the left against Stoke.
It's done to death. Kagawa won't blossom playing off the left in our team because it doesn't suit his strengths, but at the same time he's not doing nearly enough there to force himself in with a chance at playing the AM role behind a striker.
I can't really see a solution to this. If Rooney had got his wish in the summer the situation might have been different.
I can't really see a solution to this. If Rooney had got his wish in the summer the situation might have been different.
I can see Januzaj starting at the weekend, so Kagawa might lose his place unless Moyes decides to play Adnan from the right.
That's the great thing about Adnan, he can play anywhere across the front line. As many top AM's can.
Nani might just be dropped, so we may very well see Januzaj on the right and Kagawa on the left.
When he played in the middle a lot of people on the Caf were saying he can't blossom in the team when the CMs pass the ball out to the wingers all the time. So which is it? Or are the other players simply ignoring him on the pitch wherever he plays?
He's performed better in the middle, but he's not doing enough himself to justify being selected ahead of players like Rooney, Januzaj et all.
It's his responsibility to impose himself on matches and adapt to the way we play, not the other way around. If he can't do that, maybe he's not all that he's been built up to be?
I have a feeling we'll see Valencia. He did reasonably well at the weekend and he'll have had a full week of rest.
Video of Mad Winger leaked on YouTube:
I hope he starts tomorrow
I hope he starts tomorrow
Let's play Rooney, RVP, Kagawa and Januzaj again.
I am guilty of believing that Adnan will play on the left and only on the left when I am considering a team in which he might figure.The performance he gave on the right when he came on against Stoke and the role he played against Norwich suggests that he, as someone mentioned, can play in any of those three positions behind the striker in a 4-2-3-1 formation and as a wide man in a 4-4-2.
Adnan Januzaj coming of age and hitting the first team with such impact has somewhat made up for not making that mindblowing signing we craved in the summer.If he'd not been with us last season and Moyes had forked out £40 million for him I would have been content with that business.
This for pete sake,
Ive never seen an arguement go on so long,even in the newbs, This has been discussed to death, People saying Shinji needs to play in hole need to understand he blossomed in a different team, league and system there.
Our weak midfield requires cover from a strong presence in Rooney, also, Rooney has arguebly been our best player this season, why in gods name would we move him out to a position where he is less effective of all people?
Unless we sign a strong and dynamic midfielder which allows us to free up Rooney or Shinji learns how to operate in that position in our system effectively, he wont make it here, simple as.
Plenty of great players have gone to big clubs and had to alter there game/position to fit into a system, Henry at Barca, Silva at City, Mata is now being asked to do it at Chelsea, Modric at Madrid and Kagawa is no different, he either needs to learn the role we want him to play or pray Rooney leaves in the summer
I'm guessing Shinji is bound for the Champions League games..
It's a bit of a paradox. He needs to prove himself on the left wing in order to play in AM
It's a bit of a paradox. He needs to prove himself on the left wing in order to play in AM
A lot of Man Utd footballers have to prove themselves in other positions before getting into their favoured one.I'm guessing Shinji is bound for the Champions League games..
It's a bit of a paradox. He needs to prove himself on the left wing in order to play in AM
Aye, like Hernandez, Nani and Kagawa, in particular, have to prove themselves on the bench more often than not.
Hope he gets a run out today but looks like he will play midweek instead.
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