La Liga 2013-2014

RooneyLegend said:
Hence I said its questionable whether they'll sustain their form but on current form(short burst or not) they've been as close as anyone has been in the past 4 years.
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On current form rvp was battering goals in for arsenal and was better than aguero and Suarez are right now. On current form Rooney looked unstoppable before he got his leg injury. On current form, bale was winning tight games week after week for spurs under pressure to chase 4th. I have no idea youvr decided the two above have come closest to Ronaldo and messi.

I would have thought the two guys who have come closest to them are iniesta and xavi and quite comfortably.

Then after that it would be the likes of Ribery, Rooney, rvp etc etc who have done it season after season. Not sure how you figure aguero and Suarez push ahead of those guys.
 
It's actually funny how often xaviesta get forgotten in these debates just because people got so used to them quietly dominating everyone around them.
 
Snow said:
He is worthy of of it. So is Messi, so is Ribery. It's really only between those 3. My guess it will be Messi again that gets it, Ronaldo 2nd and Ribery 3rd. Ribery will get the UEFA award.

What if Sweden knocks Portugal out? He's part of a team. He isn't the only one. His particular country hasn't got a goal scorer besides him and has very few creative players. Their defense is alright. It's not a very good national team in all honesty. Not as good as England. If you take Ronaldo out of it then it would drop significantly. Argentina without Messi would still be a contender. Agüero, Tevez, Higuain, Lavezzi. Those are some of the forward options. Portugal have Helder Postiga leading the line. A supposed top team in the world with worse striker options than Iceland.

The most important aspect of football is goal scoring. Without it you can't win. The goal of the game game (pardon the pun) is to score more goals than the opposition. There's no one in the world better than Ronaldo at it. Only one that is his equal. Look back to the era before those two started scoring like that. It's ridiculous. You had one player now and again with a good season. No one is close to this consistency in the near modern era. Pele scored more but he also played in a world cup final where the teams both played 3-2-5. I wouldn't mind see what kind of goal scoring Messi and Ronaldo would be capable of if teams played that way still.

To get back on track, Real just destroyed Real Sociedad. We've just recently played twice against them ourselves and struggled. Sociedad will contest for the 4th place again this season. At least for the next few months. There usually are a few teams going for that spot until February-March and then some of them go into a lull. I think the contest for a European spot will be very interesting. Hopefully Atlético Madrid can keep up for a long time as well to keep the title race very interesting. Haven't gotten that 3rd party now in long time. They will play the other sputnik team, Villarreal, tomorrow right after the United game so I will be easily glued to the tv for those 4 hours.
Barca has got a seemingly easy away game. Betis are always tough nut to crack for the big teams so they might be able to get a draw but I don't see it considering Barca's form at the moment. They look efficient. A bit of touch and go for some moments but no screw ups so far this season.

It's a bit weird seeing last season's 7th and 8th placed teams in the bottom two.
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That is pretty unfair to be honest.


Postiga scored the equaliser against Northern Ireland, in a match they were losing, he scored against Israel when the Israelis were leading 3-1, he scored the winning goal against Russia. In all, Postiga scored 6 goals and was top scorer in that group. Ronaldo scored as many goals as his defender, Bruno Alves. Secondly, in all of the 10 matches played by Portugal, Ronaldo scored in their first match against Luxembourg and scored a hattrick against Northern Ireland. So, four goals in 10 matches whilst I felt Postiga was clearly superior to Ronaldo for the national side.
 
Xavi and Iniesta are not as good as they where, quite odd for Iniesta because he is 29 just goes to show how important Iniesta is. Both Ronaldo AND Messi have underperformed at International level. But nobody has won without having a good team around them. Argentina lack balance, they are overloaded with attackers and average at best elsewhere, Portugal are odd they have a solid team on paper but they have underperformed. Ronaldo has done well with them EURO final and semi final(s) and a world cup semi final.
 
JaffyJoe said:
Xavi and Iniesta are not as good as they where, quite odd for Iniesta because he is 29 just goes to show how important Iniesta is. Both Ronaldo AND Messi have underperformed at International level. But nobody has won without having a good team around them. Argentina lack balance, they are overloaded with attackers and average at best elsewhere, Portugal are odd they have a solid team on paper but they have underperformed. Ronaldo has done well with them EURO final and semi final(s) and a world cup semi final.
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A bit unfair for that particular set of games yes. He's however an extremely average striker with a similar record as Hugo Almeida for club and country. He's still the best that Portugal has to offer which is the main point. I know that the Portuguese posters don't talk fondly about him. Last qualification campaign Portugal were in our group and he was quite shit. Same problems then as they have now.
 
RooneyLegend said:
Aguero:
13 games, 12 starts, 13 goals(1pen), 9 assists
How's he not close?
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Ronaldo and Messi have been scoring more goals then games for each of the past 4 seasons now basically. You can't say the gap is closing because Aguero and Suarez hit a good patch of form, but even then they probably aren't close to top 5 let alone Ronaldo or Messi. You still have players like Ibrahimovic or Ribery who are a level above either Suarez or Aguero. Don't forget that in the prem we also have RVP and Rooney at United, then Ozil at Arsenal who are arguably as good if not better then the two you mentioned (taking into account a lot more then just the start of this season, you can't judge a player based on 10 games at the start of a season.
 
bosnian_red said:
Ronaldo and Messi have been scoring more goals then games for each of the past 4 seasons now basically. You can't say the gap is closing because Aguero and Suarez hit a good patch of form, but even then they probably aren't close to top 5 let alone Ronaldo or Messi. You still have players like Ibrahimovic or Ribery who are a level above either Suarez or Aguero. Don't forget that in the prem we also have RVP and Rooney at United, then Ozil at Arsenal who are arguably as good if not better then the two you mentioned (taking into account a lot more then just the start of this season, you can't judge a player based on 10 games at the start of a season.
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I think it is criminal that you have not included Diego Costa in that list who has been in top-form for Athletico Madrid; the main reason why they beat Real Madrid at the Bernabeu in the league this season. He has scored more goals than games for the first time in his career. What does this suggest to you? For the time being, I think the Bundesliga is the toughest league in Europe, and I believe Ribery is doing a really good job, both for his club and country.
 
bosnian_red said:
Ronaldo and Messi have been scoring more goals then games for each of the past 4 seasons now basically. You can't say the gap is closing because Aguero and Suarez hit a good patch of form, but even then they probably aren't close to top 5 let alone Ronaldo or Messi. You still have players like Ibrahimovic or Ribery who are a level above either Suarez or Aguero. Don't forget that in the prem we also have RVP and Rooney at United, then Ozil at Arsenal who are arguably as good if not better then the two you mentioned (taking into account a lot more then just the start of this season, you can't judge a player based on 10 games at the start of a season.
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We'll have to see how long it goes on won't we. Can't remember the last time a player not named Messi or Ronaldo having 22 goal contributions in his first 13 games.

Nah, neither Ibra are a level above them even considering past seasons. Last season Suarez was neck on neck with any player in the prem and aguero the season before that had an amazing season, so it isn't really out of nowhere.

Unfortunately that's all we have to judge on. I did say that the question was going to be whether they'll sustain it and I see little evidence that they won't. Their start so far is certainly comparable to the big 2.
 
Proud_Lyon said:
I think it is criminal that you have not included Diego Costa in that list who has been in top-form for Athletico Madrid; the main reason why they beat Real Madrid at the Bernabeu in the league this season. He has scored more goals than games for the first time in his career. What does this suggest to you? For the time being, I think the Bundesliga is the toughest league in Europe, and I believe Ribery is doing a really good job, both for his club and country.
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Why do you think that the Bundesliga is the toughest league in Europe? There's a huge gap between the the top teams and the rest, same as in La Liga. They have more CL spots per teams and less relegation spots. They have crappier newcomers to the league that seem to be far below the rest.
 
Proud_Lyon said:
I think it is criminal that you have not included Diego Costa in that list who has been in top-form for Athletico Madrid; the main reason why they beat Real Madrid at the Bernabeu in the league this season. He has scored more goals than games for the first time in his career. What does this suggest to you? For the time being, I think the Bundesliga is the toughest league in Europe, and I believe Ribery is doing a really good job, both for his club and country.
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Diego Costa is definitely having a great season so far, but I don't think its fair to put him on the same level as Ibrahimovic, Van Persie, Suarez, Aguero, Rooney, Lewandowski, etc just yet. Maybe at the end of the season we'll see, but I wouldn't put a player in the top tier of strikers based on a few months compared to the others who have been doing it for years.
 
Snow said:
Why do you think that the Bundesliga is the toughest league in Europe? There's a huge gap between the the top teams and the rest, same as in La Liga. They have more CL spots per teams and less relegation spots. They have crappier newcomers to the league that seem to be far below the rest.
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I don't think the Bundesliga is the thoughest league, but I really don't get how someone can really be able to compare the bottom 3 or 4 teams in different leagues, probably mainly judged on at best a few games against the top teams and highlights each week.

How often did you watch the newcomers this season? After all Hertha is in 7th place so far this season and did a remarkable job in the game against Bayern and Braunschweig won against Leverkusen last week and was really unlucky in quite a few games not to get a point. How are they so much crappier than a 3 points after 10 games Crystal Palace and seem to you far below the rest? Frankfurt finished 6th last season as a newcomer and is now top of their Europe League group, do you really call that crappy?

I honestly haven't watched a single Crystal Palace game this season and I try to watch a lot of football from the top four leagues, way too much probably. How much football do you have to watch each weekend to be able to form an opinion on the quality of the bottom half teams in the different leagues in Europe?
 
I'm basing it on the past few years. Those old Bundesliga teams do well when they get up but the others fail. Except for Augsburg. It makes the league tougher than other comparable leagues in that way but overall it makes it easier for other clubs to stay in the league, also because of the relegation playoff fail-safe. It's not really down to the teams being crappier, rather other teams being more stable. There's not much disparity in attendances like in other leagues because you people attend games like crazy because of your much better league structure. Like in any league, any team can beat any other team. That's just how football is. Barcelona and Real aren't even immune to that.

I don't think that some other league is tougher than the Bundesliga. I can't measure that properly. I don't think it's the toughest either. It still does have that factor in hand that I mentioned earlier, more European spots per team and less relegation spot.
 
Fair enough, nothing wrong with that. I don't know how often it happens that small teams establish themselves in other leagues for more than 2 or 3 years, but I think it happens quite a lot in the Bundesliga that newcomers break into the top half of the league for at least a season, which usually makes for good entertainment and your point about them being far below the rest seem strange. Also it's only the second season that we have more European spots per team, before that we had less for more than a decade, so I think we should wait a few years before we judge how that changed the quality of the league.

I'm not a big fan of the relegation play-offs either, btw. The 1. Bundesliga and 2. Bundesliga clubs in 2007 voted to bring it back, so the 2. Bundesliga teams must also see something positive in it, which I can't.
 
I said that they seemed to be far below. I obviously can't say that for a fact. That would take a lot of football watching in many leagues.

You can only really take a few years at a time to try and measure the current toughness of a league. It's mostly bullshit anyways but if we try and do so then we can't take into consideration 10 years ago to what it is now. That's a lot of different players and managers. With a few years, ballparking at 3-5 years, you got teams with mostly the same players and some with the same managers. But it would be mostly bullshit anyways. The UEFA method is the best we've got.

My personal opinion is that there's little between the three leagues. They're all great. Seems like the Italian is doing a little better as well with some fresh blood at the top and the stupid spending beyond means being lessened. I'd like to get access to it again since we've got more and more Icelandic players joining that league. Been a while since we had one in Germany. Maybe 6-8 years beside Gylfi.

This has gotten seriously off topic. I apologize for my part in that.
 
Snow said:
He is worthy of of it. So is Messi, so is Ribery. It's really only between those 3. My guess it will be Messi again that gets it, Ronaldo 2nd and Ribery 3rd. Ribery will get the UEFA award.

What if Sweden knocks Portugal out? He's part of a team. He isn't the only one. His particular country hasn't got a goal scorer besides him and has very few creative players. Their defense is alright. It's not a very good national team in all honesty. Not as good as England. If you take Ronaldo out of it then it would drop significantly. Argentina without Messi would still be a contender. Agüero, Tevez, Higuain, Lavezzi. Those are some of the forward options. Portugal have Helder Postiga leading the line. A supposed top team in the world with worse striker options than Iceland.

The most important aspect of football is goal scoring. Without it you can't win. The goal of the game game (pardon the pun) is to score more goals than the opposition. There's no one in the world better than Ronaldo at it. Only one that is his equal. Look back to the era before those two started scoring like that. It's ridiculous. You had one player now and again with a good season. No one is close to this consistency in the near modern era. Pele scored more but he also played in a world cup final where the teams both played 3-2-5. I wouldn't mind see what kind of goal scoring Messi and Ronaldo would be capable of if teams played that way still.

To get back on track, Real just destroyed Real Sociedad. We've just recently played twice against them ourselves and struggled. Sociedad will contest for the 4th place again this season. At least for the next few months. There usually are a few teams going for that spot until February-March and then some of them go into a lull. I think the contest for a European spot will be very interesting. Hopefully Atlético Madrid can keep up for a long time as well to keep the title race very interesting. Haven't gotten that 3rd party now in long time. They will play the other sputnik team, Villarreal, tomorrow right after the United game so I will be easily glued to the tv for those 4 hours.

Barca has got a seemingly easy away game. Betis are always tough nut to crack for the big teams so they might be able to get a draw but I don't see it considering Barca's form at the moment. They look efficient. A bit of touch and go for some moments but no screw ups so far this season.

It's a bit weird seeing last season's 7th and 8th placed teams in the bottom two.
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Not going to address the BdO stuff anymore, feel like a broken record already and it's clear that few are interested in actually debating it...


Sociedad will contest for the 4th place again this season.
I'd be very surprised to see Real Sociedad get anywhere near the CL places this season (as you said maybe for another couple of weeks), I cannot see anything of the consistency they had last season and they've lost considerable stability without Illarra. Also apart from Griezmann (8 goals in 11 games) their offense hasn't clicked at all, esp. Vela being very poor. They actually were the highest scoring side after Barça and RM last season.

Barca has got a seemingly easy away game. Betis are always tough nut to crack for the big teams
True, they sure gave RM serious trouble in the season opener and probably should've won. In their current form however, even the home advantage won't do them any good.

It's a bit weird seeing last season's 7th and 8th placed teams in the bottom two.
That's La Liga for you, (recently) promoted teams have almost as much chance of getting into Europe as the mainstays do... cf. Levante, Betis, Real Sociedad in previous seasons, perhaps Villarreal this season.


Looking forward to the Villarreal-Atléti game, two excellent teams, both on form. This will be one hell of a test for Simeone's men. If they manage to get a favourable result at the Madrigal, that would go some way to reinforcing their status this season, but I can definitely see them dropping points there. Like the man himself said sooner or later the financial disparity with the Big Two will tell. Let's put it this way, Ancelotti gets to bring Isco in from the bench, Martino has Fàbregas... he has to make do with Adrián López :D
 
Snow said:
I said that they seemed to be far below. I obviously can't say that for a fact. That would take a lot of football watching in many leagues.

You can only really take a few years at a time to try and measure the current toughness of a league. It's mostly bullshit anyways but if we try and do so then we can't take into consideration 10 years ago to what it is now. That's a lot of different players and managers. With a few years, ballparking at 3-5 years, you got teams with mostly the same players and some with the same managers. But it would be mostly bullshit anyways. The UEFA method is the best we've got.

My personal opinion is that there's little between the three leagues. They're all great. Seems like the Italian is doing a little better as well with some fresh blood at the top and the stupid spending beyond means being lessened. I'd like to get access to it again since we've got more and more Icelandic players joining that league. Been a while since we had one in Germany. Maybe 6-8 years beside Gylfi.

This has gotten seriously off topic. I apologize for my part in that.
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I'm just always surprised about comparisons between the bottom half teams of different leagues, that's why I picked up on your point. We basically could have a similar discussion about La Liga teams. I simply don't know enough about those teams to form an opinion about their strength in comparison to England or Germany, I also think that quality youth development is really important for the strength of the bottom half of the league, which often means that teams with relatively young unknown players in Spain and in recent years in Germany as well perform on a higher level than what you'd expect from the team on paper. I agree that most likely there is very little between the top leagues and I actually enjoy how different the approach to building a team and to tactics is in all the top 4 leagues.
 
Skorenzy said:
Not going to address the BdO stuff anymore, feel like a broken record already and it's clear that few are interested in actually debating it...


Sociedad will contest for the 4th place again this season.
I'd be very surprised to see Real Sociedad get anywhere near the CL places this season (as you said maybe for another couple of weeks), I cannot see anything of the consistency they had last season and they've lost considerable stability without Illarra. Also apart from Griezmann (8 goals in 11 games) their offense hasn't clicked at all, esp. Vela being very poor. They actually were the highest scoring side after Barça and RM last season.

Barca has got a seemingly easy away game. Betis are always tough nut to crack for the big teams
True, they sure gave RM serious trouble in the season opener and probably should've won. In their current form however, even the home advantage won't do them any good.

It's a bit weird seeing last season's 7th and 8th placed teams in the bottom two.
That's La Liga for you, (recently) promoted teams have almost as much chance of getting into Europe as the mainstays do... cf. Levante, Betis, Real Sociedad in previous seasons, perhaps Villarreal this season.


Looking forward to the Villarreal-Atléti game, two excellent teams, both on form. This will be one hell of a test for Simeone's men. If they manage to get a favourable result at the Madrigal, that would go some way to reinforcing their status this season, but I can definitely see them dropping points there. Like the man himself said sooner or later the financial disparity with the Big Two will tell. Let's put it this way, Ancelotti gets to bring Isco in from the bench, Martino has Fàbregas... he has to make do with Adrián López :D
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I think they'll contest for a few reasons. No Europe after Christmas. More stability than at the beginning of the season. The competition for 4th. Valencia aren't doing well. Athletic and Getafe are often around that spot without actually challenging for it in the end. Villarreal are only just back. Hull got relegated. So got my own team in Iceland 10 years ago when they were top of the league after the season was half-done. Finished 2nd last with the highest point tally to get relegated and the two top goalscorers. Anything can happen in football.

The Villarreal-Atéti game is probably the most exciting game so far this season bar the usual El Clasico. It's an unusual top flight challenge which is always exciting. Lots of in form players.
 
Snow said:
I think they'll contest for a few reasons. No Europe after Christmas. More stability than at the beginning of the season. The competition for 4th. Valencia aren't doing well. Athletic and Getafe are often around that spot without actually challenging for it in the end. Villarreal are only just back. Hull got relegated. So got my own team in Iceland 10 years ago when they were top of the league after the season was half-done. Finished 2nd last with the highest point tally to get relegated and the two top goalscorers. Anything can happen in football.

The Villarreal-Atéti game is probably the most exciting game so far this season bar the usual El Clasico. It's an unusual top flight challenge which is always exciting. Lots of in form players.
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That's a fair point about Europe, it's such a shame really... offensively they were far better than that Málaga side that reached the CL QF, defensively they were also competent enough (though not as good as Pellegrini's Málaga at closing out games), but without Montanier (and Illarra) it's all gone to hell this season. Most of it is of their own making too, playing so sloppily and ineffectually when in possession and so loose and panicky when defending. Only 1 goal and 1 point after 4 CL games after being the team that played the best football in Spain maybe even for the entire 2012-13 season just once more highlights the realities of La Liga, like the Villarreal of 2 seasons ago, it shows how they can just completely collapse over a summer after playing brilliantly before that...

Valencia and even Sevilla will probably get their shit together once more in the 2nd half of the season. Getafe are doing well, as they often do in the beginning indeed but even better this time, under the stewardship of Luis García Plaza, the man who got Levante into the Primera again and laid the foundations for their incredible 2011-12 season. Pedro León has been the key player for them so far. And from what I've seen of them Moyá has been in inspired form as well this season.

As I said a while back in this thread, I think this might be the year that sees Osasuna go down... they just don't have the attacking options and their defense seems to have deteriorated as well, already 22 goals conceded after 12 games (4th worst in the division), when usually they're among the better teams in this category. Maybe they'll buckle down in the latter stages of the season, but right now they've equalled Rayo in losing the most games, and unlike them they won't win enough games to possibly offset all those defeats IMO.

Actually it's really hard to predict who'll go down this season (last season Mallorca looked distinctly average, and Depor while playing okay just got penetrated too easily and lost all confidence in the end), teams like Celta, Elche and Almería are doing really well at the moment, but any of them could conceivably go down if they have a bad run at the wrong time, as I don't see them having the tools to claw their way back to safety.

Granada are doing well at the moment, very cagey team that. Haven't seen enough of Athletic to judge them, but they seem to be doing fine.
 
Sevilla already 2-0 up within 10 minutes away to Espanyol, didn't see that coming. Fazio back in the line-up though so all bets are off... :D

Rakitic already with an assist from a cross and just now a huge drive which Casilla managed to punch away.

edit: Apparently Sevilla haven't won an away game in the league for over a year.
 
Sergio García claws one back, 1-2, after great work by Simão and Lanza... decent finish, laid away in the far corner.
 
Espanyol have been knocking on the door in the first quarter of the 2nd half, only to get it slammed into their faces with an amazing individual goal from Carlos Bacca. 1-3!
 
Atléti take the lead at El Madrigal after only 2 minutes, a cross from Juanfran was deflected by a Villarreal defender...


edit: Villarreal been the better team ever since, a lot more energy and agressivity from them.
 
Ronnie O'Sullivan said:
Can Atletico hold on?
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They'll have to close down on Bruno Soriano a lot faster, he's dominating the play, enabling Cani to pick up the ball and create danger. For Atléti the defence has been excellent so far, very composed, with Juanfran standing out (offensively as well) among them. Koke has had some nice moments and Diego Costa has been battling away all evening but without much success. They'll need to score a 2nd soon because they're in danger of being overrun, both central midfielders on a yellow as well. Will need a sub soon.
 
It's been a heroic defensive performance from João Miranda so far, what a player he's been for them these past 2 seasons. Him and Godín have been the best centre-back pairing in the league for 2 straight seasons IMO. Alderweireld doing alright too in his first Liga start I think?

Arda Turan coming on as a sub for Raúl García, should liven things up.. his first game since recovering from injury?
 
1-1! Alderweireld should've cleared the ball, but let his man get past him to put in a cross for Uche to tap in. The momentum has been with Villarreal for the entire 2nd half... Atléti will need one hell of a response now.

edit: it's another og., Juanfran bundling it in apparently :lol:

Diego Costa coming off with around 10 minutes to go, Adrián López coming on.
 
Vato1979 said:
Betis will win now, I've put my green striped shirt on today so it can't go wrong.
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Well, Barça haven't exactly had it easy in the Benito Villamarín these past few seasons... lost 3-1 in a Copa 2nd leg when Betis were still in the Segunda, drew 2-2 in their first season back up and won narrowly 2-1 last season thanks to a Messi brace. Having said that, Betis are in terrible shape at the moment.
 
Skorenzy said:
Well, Barça haven't exactly had it easy in the Benito Villamarín these past few seasons... lost 3-1 in a Copa 2nd leg when Betis were still in the Segunda, drew 2-2 in their first season back up and won narrowly 2-1 last season thanks to a Messi brace. Having said that, Betis are in terrible shape at the moment.
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Didn't they also lose to them on opening day last season? Or was that the season before that?
 
Martino tries his hand at rotation.

Barça: Valdés; Alves, Puyol, Bartra, Montoya; Song, Xavi, Cesc, Pedrito, Messi y Neymar

Betis: Sara, Steinhöfer, Caro, Jordi Figueras, Nacho, Xavi Torres, Nono, Vadillo, Verdú, Juan Carlos y Jorge Molina


Molina back for Betis, they've missed him badly... Verdú and Vadillo could def. cause Barça problems.
 
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