I think he's looking happier as the games tick by. More involved, more assured, more prepared to demand the ball and his team-mates are looking for him with more regularity. I'd be very happy with the progress he's making.
Shinji Kagawa
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I personally see converting him into a CM as pointless as converting him into a left winger. Yes, he has the movement and willingness to dictate play, but his standout attribute is his close control and I can see that making him far more effective and special further up the pitch, not as CM.
It's painful to choose between those two though, and I would argue Hernández has made a better case for himself, which is why I would give Kagawa that run and make or break. Just don't see the point in persisting with him as LW as if suddenly something phenomenal will happen. It won't.
Massive assumption. Yes, Januzaj has been a standout performer of late, but do you seriously think Moyes started Kagawa instead in the biggest game of the season so far to "take it easy on the kid"? Really?
Since you give such importance to Moyes saying Januzaj could play #10, he has also indicated Kagawa looks better and more influential through the middle. Don't see why he would say that unless he considers he could be the solution there. If anything, the way he has played Kagawa lately indicates he sees him playing centrally but just won't bite the bullet, instead playing him on the left and switching him inside once we have a game sorted or under control, comparing his and the team's performance in either scenario, etc.
At least that's quite clear to me, that he is testing a hypothesis without fully committing to it just yet.
What other reason could there be? Put it this way, Kagawa sure as hell wasn't picked because he was in better form.
Moyes saying it was great, but like I said I've seen play as a no 10 a few times for the reserves where he drifts and causes havoc. That's going to be his position long term and unlike Kagawa he has time on his side. Kagawa is 24 and should be entering the prime of his career and playing in his best position but that's not something that's going to happen as he's never going to displace Rooney or RVP.
For what it's worth I think we can make things work with Kagawa on the left as well at least for the smaller games. He's not been restricted to the left and both him and Rooney are more than intelligent enough to interchange positions. It even happened a lot yesterday when Rooney dropped to the left and Kagawa was playing in the middle. But he needs to improve because on form Januzaj is ahead for me.
This is where I disagree. Kagawa was far worse than RVP/Rooney (who I'd give at least an 8 each) and was less involved going forward than Valencia, who admittedly wasn't great himself.
As for the second bolded part: No, we live in a sensible world where to play in a position regularly, you have to prove you are better than the current preferred player in that position. Rooney being our 1st or 2nd best player yesterday showed again why he has made that position his own this season vs last season where he was crap (and I immensely dislike Rooney).
Kagawa's schoolboy mistakes this season (misplacing simple passes, slow movement, being bullied off the ball and drifting in and out of games) which are position indiscriminate, suggest that we can't afford to drop RVP/Rooney and allow him 5-6 games to be our main play-maker. He needs to show he can consistently do the basics to a good standard before being trusted to be a key point of our attack.
If he can't iron out these mistakes then he will have to settle for occupying the number 10 position in the Carling Cup, dead rubbers in the CL and against lower opposition in the FA Cup; and rightly so.
Kagawa is performing how you'd expect Januzaj to perform, given his age. Timid, afraid to try things, bullied off the ball, us looking at even the smallest thing to praise him about etc.
You'd think Januzaj was the multi-million pound talent that we signed from abroad, based on this season.
You'd think Januzaj was the multi-million pound talent that we signed from abroad, based on this season.
Chances created is the most pointless stat in existence.
Sums it up perfectly.
People are actively looking for the slightest thing to praise him for. By his standards he's been poor this season. I'd really hoped he would crack on this season but he simply hasn't. He seems weaker and less influencial. It can be argued his confidence was dented by being left out at the start of the season, but he's been given more playing time recently and hasn't stepped up.
Based on current form I wouldn't start him because Rooney and Januzaj are playing much better and offer more to the team. I honestly believe his long term fututre with us hinges on whether Rooney stays.
Considering there is currently a shortage of quality, left-footed wingers both in the squad and on the market, I think Kagawa or Januzaj is the way forward there for now. If Kagawa can gather some form and consistency he can definitely help us control the ball better and help us with the variation in our forward play IMO.
Did well yesterday. Id love to see him and Rooney swap more during the games.
In a perfect world they would and should dovetail perfectly. The problem seems to be Rooney's insistence of being a CENTRE forward. He'll drop back and help out when required but he doesn't seem to want to leave the central position. That essentially leaves us overstocked in the centre as Kagawa often floats centrally. Nev even mentioned it on commentary yesterday.
That's plain nonsense. I can remember several occasions yesterday when Rooney drifted to the left (and even the right). Delivered a couple of great crosses from the left as well iirc.
Tactics?
In two years that would not be an issue, and that would be roughly when he would be in his prime. You are thinking 2013-14 and the manager should never solely think that way.
I was at a speech by SAF at the IoD a few years back, where he was invited to talk about talent management. The crux of it was very simple: he always had to have two sets of XIs with each position filled by two individuals. One had the current starters, the other the future starters (the remainder of the squad was utility and allowing for tactical variations). The way he saw it, that was the easy part of the job, the difficult one was handling the tension between current needs for success and not jeopardising future success by overlooking/losing the future XI chaps. He somewhat exaggerated, but he thought finding the balance between both was the entire secret of his success.
He specifically highlighted how important the youth development was, not only in bringing new contenders for the "second XI", but in shaping them according to the needs of the squad. In that sense, Januzaj is a wild card. He can be a #10, of course, but he can also be a winger, and right now it is bleeding obvious that there's more need for him as one of the four wingers than as one of the two #10s. It's handy though that if Rooney or Kagawa were to leave we have someone who can be groomed for that role. It's not a question of whether Jauzaj would be better than either but the fact he is far more useful and required elsewhere.
Do notice how this somehow explains the midfield mess. It's easy to assess GKs, CBs, FBs, wingers and strikers, while midfield is harder because there's so much more relevance in terms of how you will play, set up (4-4-2/4-4-1-1/4-2-3-1/a few diamonds last year...), the partnerships themselves... It's nothing new since Scholes-Keane broke up: Fortune, Smith, Giggs, O'Shea... fringe players have regularly been given a shot at midfield. It hasn't helped that two "currents" spent years battling injuries/illness, while a future one stayed fat throughout and the up-and-coming youth guys left before being fully incorporated in that setup.
I agree that's what Moyes is trying to do, duping Rooney into some flexibility with his role and getting them to interchange. It is quite handy in that it keeps some competitive tension and also allows for switching your approach quite radically at will. Yes, we didn't create much yesterday, but you could see that was a thorn for Arsenal. It was surprising and they got quite paranoid about who precisely they had to keep tabs on, resulting in their build up from the back going to shit. The problem I see with it though is that it works best with Valencia on the other flank and that gives you little room for manoeuvre in terms of rotation and keeping the squad fresh.
You've missed the point, I said when required. Rooney predominately wants to stay central after his trantrum this summer. In a perfect world he and Kagawa would interchange between LW and centre. Rooney still changes position but no where near as often as previous years. He did cover LW occasionally yesterday but seems to be reluctant to do it regularly, this leads us to have Rooney and Kagawa getting in each others way centrally and leaves a big gaping hole on the left.
And there lies the contradiction. If the guy's confidence is shot you try recover it. The last thing you want is for Rooney to leave and then turn around to the player who has lost confidence and been overlooked all season and ask him to become some sort of saviour.
If Rooney's future is in the balance Moyes is absolutely right to try keep Kagawa involved. The upside is, Rooney looks like a man possessed and the complete opposite to the latter part of last season, so long may it continue.
And there lies the contradiction. If the guy's confidence is shot you try recover it. The last thing you want is for Rooney to leave and then turn around to the player who has lost confidence and been overlooked all season and ask him to become some sort of saviour.
If Rooney's future is in the balance Moyes is absolutely right to try keep Kagawa involved. The upside is, Rooney looks like a man possessed and the complete opposite to the latter part of last season, so long may it continue.
Which is why I believe Moyes is giving him games out wide and centrally when Rooney is rested. Kagawa's problem is he's playing average. He has the occasional moment but he's largely disappointing and is currently justifying Moyes' reluctance to play him regularly.
Yeah, agreed. Think Moyes likes him and he'll end up forging a good career here.
Maybe and even experience considering the intensity of the game but there's no real question of who's been the better player this season.
Why would it work best with Valencia? imo it would work even better with Januzaj or Nani as they are more versatile than Valencia and make it even harder for the defenders with the movement.
Should we give the diamond behind a front two of Rooney and van Persie a shot? Our wingers aren't really performing, except for Januzaj but he won't play every game just yet. Kagawa could play in his best position, Rooney won't get angry and confused and Rafael and Evra are good enough going forward to provide width down the flanks.
Its an option. You could very well argue that right side of a diamond is Valencia's best position too. We'd need a worker like Jones on the other side though to help Carrick. Maybe you could get away with Cleverley left of the diamond. But nothing more adventurous than that. All the adventure would be from Kagawa, Rooney, RVP and bombing wingbacks
If you isolate the wide time and the central time you would find the moments are central and the disappointments/averageness is wide. That's why I'd like to see him get a few games centrally, not being switched late in the game or stuff like that, just start, play, see how it pans out, with no fecking noise from subs and tactical variations. Shame we didn't score that peno against Sociedad as the remaining CL games would be quite handy for that. I don't want league feckups, no more of those please.
No one questions that. I think we would all agree we are chuffed to bits with Adnan.
Nah, people have this illusion that three contantly interchanging AMs would make life really hard for defences but more often than not will also confuse the shit out of each other and the rest of their team. It's not something you just pull off because three players have good movement.
It is precisely Valencia's predictability that helps make that work. There's that tried and tested option out right (preferably with Rafael, imagine how much better our right flank would have been yesterday) and it guarantees the rival defence will be stretched that way, creating more space centrally or at the very least shifting the defence in that direction and making it much easier for Rooney and Kagawa to swap without it meaning either needs to end up hugging the line (Evra offers that).
It's not that Januzaj can't do it, but we would be asking him to be as one-dimensional as Valencia (which is what is required on that flank) and I don't fancy emphasising that with him. With Nani I just don't think he has the discipline to do it consistently, that's not what he is about at all.
I think that would work and accommodate current personnel. Is it what we want to deploy for the next 3-5 years though? I doubt it.
That's not what I meant. Nani is more versatile than Valencia. Nani can play as your conventional winger by going to the touchline and whipping in crosses thereby giving us width but he can also come inside and exchange passes with Rooney/Kagawa and score one of those chipped goal he dearly loves
. That's something Valencia can't do. Most of the interchanging takes place between Rooney and Kagawa.You replace Kagawa with Januzaj and you get the additional option of him and Nani switching wings if necessary.
I am against the diamond though. You can never underestimate width even with wingers completely out of form. As poor as Valencia has been, him playing stretches the game which allows the players in the middle to play with more freedom.
I said as soon as we signed Fellaini that with our current personnel a diamond suits us best:
As the most defensive diamond you could have:
______Carrick
_Jones_____Fellaini
_____Kagawa
Which would get the most out of Fellaini, who is too immobile to play in a 2 with Carrick. Nani or Januzaj could come in for Kagawa.
As a more offensive diamond you could have:
________Carrick
Valencia_______Cleverley
_______Kagawa
Again Nani or Januzaj would be inter-changeable with Kagawa. Likewise Rooney could move to the tip of the Diamond and accommodate Hernandez, who isn't getting the games he should despite his positive performances.
Never in a million years could I see Fellaini on the side of a diamond. The mobility is even more of a problem there. He'd be at the base in the DM role (not very well) or up behind the strikers similar to his role at Everton
That's not what I meant. Nani is more versatile than Valencia. Nani can play as your conventional winger by going to the touchline and whipping in crosses thereby giving us width but he can also come inside and exchange passes with Rooney/Kagawa and score one of those chipped goal he dearly loves
You replace Kagawa with Januzaj and you get the additional option of him and Nani switching wings if necessary.
I thought we were discussing Kagawa interchanging with Rooney and how Valencia was the best fit on the other flank. Not who are the best options or players but the best fit for a given approach. You've ended up playing Januzaj and Nani instead!And never in a million years would I adopt a diamond so that we can play Fellaini, even if he was well suited for it. I'm happy to see a diamond every now and then to surprise the oppo in a specific game, but no more than that.
Nah I wouldn't see it as a long term option, more as a way to play to our current strengths, especially against top sides.
Absolutely true, their right flank would wreck havoc with Fellaini giving the cover. Jones could play it though, maybe Clev but he wouldn't be great.
A bit above you said Valencia could play it. Where has that come from?
That's clearly not true, certainly not yesterday. His heat map of touches showed him all over the pitch, and he spent more time on the left than anywhere else.
So the only 2 chances he's created from the wing are West Ham away last season, and 2 against Sociedad last week? That's nonsense, I don't have a clue what the exact number is but I remember a cross which Hernandez scored from against Braga last season, and no doubt plenty more.
Aye that's a load of bollocks, very strange criticism. First half especially Rooney was popping up on the left all game and he offered more of a threat offensively out there than Kagawa, with a series of excellent crosses.
Januzaj has already outperformed Kagawa out there in my options, the wings just don't suit his game also the way we play doesn't help either.I think if we played a style more suited to Kagawa he would be able to cope out on the wing but the way we play does him no favours. I agree there are few options in the market right now. We will just have to play it by ear.
Kagawa is not suited to the left in a team that uses width, nor to the physical matches like we saw yesterday. Januzaj has much more of the skills needed to play there, including being left footed, having the ability to beat a man and being able to put in a good cross.
I haven't seen the heatmaps, but off the top of my head I remember Rooney's and Kagawa's most inicisive moments being in the swapped position and not the starting one. Not making the point they should swap permanently but rather that it would show the swapping is effective at unsettling the oppo.
Chances, key passes, I no longer know what the definition is for these stats. They do my head in.
Except maybe that's not what Moyes was looking for yesterday?
When are we going to stop comparing Kagawa, Januzaj, Valencia and Nani as if they were like for like replacements? They all imply quite different conscious choices. And that's without throwing the likes of Giggs, Welbeck and Young into the mix as they would currently be rotation rather than tactical decisions.
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