Shinji Kagawa

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Nucks said:
People don't get it. He isn't saying Kagawa is better, at least I don't think he is. He is saying our team is STRONGER playing someone else who is better than Kagawa on the left, while playing Kagawa centrally. Overall the AVERAGE level of play between the two positions would be higher.

Let's just use Rooney and Kagawa as hypothetical examples.

Let's rate these guys on a scale of 1-10 as CAM and LAM.

Rooney is a 9 at CAM and an 8 at LAM. Kagawa is an 8 at CAM and a 6 at LAM. That's the sort of concept he is talking about. The problem is, Rooney won't play there and would no doubt throw a tantrum if Moyes began playing him there. It isn't always about playing your players where they are absolutely their best. It is about playing your players so your team is at its absolute best. Whether or not you think our best chance to win is Rooney partnered with RVP up top, or Rooney or someone else playing on the left with Kagawa to his right is a matter of opinion.

We won the league last year with Rooney playing where he could best bolster the squad, granted this year RVP has had injury problem :(
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He said the same thing more or less several times in the thread. Granted he talks about the specific job of playing behind the striker but he said it and strongly believes that Kagawa is a better player than Rooney there.
 
Theon said:
Obviously you've just made those figures up, but you've made it look a better argument than it is IMO. Rooney isn't an 8 on the left, if we shift him over to the wing then we are losing more than the negligible amount you imply - he's a central player every day of the week, he's also been the heart of the team this season and we need him on the ball as much as possible which won't happen on the wing.

Januzaj is a 7 on the left anyway, so with Rooney as a 9 in CAM that partnership equals your hypothetical Kagawa one.
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you hit the nail on the head when you say he's been the heart of the team this season

Kagawa has apparently thanked Moyes for his opportunities of late which is good to hear

He can't argue with the games he has got and he's had a few cameos at number 10

Rooney is undroppable at the minute and I'm sure Kagawa can't feel agrieved at not playing ahead of Wayne
 
o
Ekeke said:
or his best move ever
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you think Kagawa has it in his locker to be more effective than Rooney has this season?

or do you think we would have signed someone??

I can't think of a number 10 in Europe who works harder for the team

you have to question Rooney's decisions when its come to contracts etc and his fitness hasn't always been good but under Moyes he has come back in great shape and has performed from the word go.
 
buckooo1978 said:
o

you think Kagawa has it in his locker to be more effective than Rooney has this season?

or do you think we would have signed someone??

I can't think of a number 10 in Europe who works harder for the team

you have to question Rooney's decisions when its come to contracts etc and his fitness hasn't always been good but under Moyes he has come back in great shape and has performed from the word go.
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I think we'd definitely have signed someone, but who knows if they'd have been exactly like Rooney. Usually we replace players with something different. Kagawa would have been much more likely to get his chance as well, as whoever the other player is settles in. My point was just that we don't know. We dont know what happens with Rooney now other than he's playing well till now and worked really hard at the weekend. We dont know what would have happened had he gone to Chelsea etc.
 
Sultan said:
Sir Alex would still have found a way to be a winner.
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would be an interesting thread - what Alex would have done next

he probably would have sold Rooney (but not to Chelsea/City) so I wonder where he would have went, god knows who he would have signed to replace him, there's no way he'd have seen value in some of the big names moving around - we've been crying out for a midfielder for years but we seemed to sign a procession of wingers and squad players....

pretty sure we would have made more of a move for Thiago which would have been a great signing
 
Theon said:
Obviously you've just made those figures up, but you've made it look a better argument than it is IMO. Rooney isn't an 8 on the left, if we shift him over to the wing then we are losing more than the negligible amount you imply - he's a central player every day of the week, he's also been the heart of the team this season and we need him on the ball as much as possible which won't happen on the wing.

Januzaj is a 7 on the left anyway, so with Rooney as a 9 in CAM that partnership equals your hypothetical Kagawa one.
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Rooney has excelled for us on the left in the past. We may do well enough in the league, but will our disjointed play relying on 2 strikers to save the day carry us through against tough matches in Europe?
 
kouroux said:
He said the same thing more or less several times in the thread. Granted he talks about the specific job of playing behind the striker but he said it and strongly believes that Kagawa is a better player than Rooney there.
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This is true. I don't think that Kagawa is a better player than Rooney, but he's a waaaaaay better no.10. I've said it a million times, and I'll say it again: it would benefit our team if Kagawa got to play behind the striker because our CM is too weak. Right now we're just pushing stars into our lineup and hoping for the best. It will not work long term.

4-4-2 is reserved for teams with outstanding world class midfielders. 4-2-3-1 with a proper no.10 is therefore the way to go for us, unless we pretty much change our entire midfield with new world class midfielders(which is never gonna happen).

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As for the Silva vs Kagawa discussion, it's laughable how ridiculously underrated Kagawa's passing is. Either that, or you lot just completely ignore the Bundesliga or Japanese national team, where Kagawa has had many brilliant through balls, lobs, flicks, low crosses, and otherwise defense-splitting passes. If you think that the reason Silva works better on the wing than Kagawa is because he's better at passing, then you simply don't understand football.
 
God damn Moyes and his FM-generation mindset of playing your best players. If only he really understood football the way Mad Winger does.
 
Brwned said:
God damn Moyes and his FM-generation mindset of playing your best players. If only he really understood football the way Mad Winger does.
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God damn Mad Winger for having a different opinion than a professional manager! Every other manager would have done the same Moyes!
 
I'd like to see how Kagawa would do as a partner for Carrick in midfield

he's lightweight but it didn't stop Modric
 
I'm so confused by what he's suggesting we do. We move Rooney from a position where he's been playing fantastically to another position where he won't have as much of an impact on the team performance, in order to accommodate a player who in all honesty is living up to the form of two years ago. In doing so we drop the best striker in the league, and move Rooney away from where he is able to dictate the play and pick the ball up from deep?
 
Joemo said:
I'm so confused by what he's suggesting we do. We move Rooney from a position where he's been playing fantastically to another position where he won't have as much of an impact on the team performance
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Rooney is a world class striker. Moving him further up the pitch will hardly affect his game at all. On the contrary, I think he'll become even better this way. To me, Rooney is a goalscorer who happens to move around a lot. He can move around a lot as a lone striker as well. He'll just leave the offensive playmaking to Kagawa, who's wastly better than Rooney in this particular aspect. Rooney's not dictating the play at all. He's just bothering the opponent by constantly running at them and being a constant goal threat(because he's a striker).


buckooo1978 said:
I'd like to see how Kagawa would do as a partner for Carrick in midfield

he's lightweight but it didn't stop Modric
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Kagawa did start out his career as a defensive midfielder, so it's not a more stupid decision to play him there than it is to play him on the wing.

Having said that, I don't think he's quite aggressive enough to cut it at the highest level. In the J-League, sure no problem. But the PL is a bit too rough. Even though Modric is light-weight, he's still more aggressive and direct in his playstyle than Kagawa is.
 
Mad Winger said:
Rooney is a world class striker. Moving him further up the pitch will hardly affect his game at all. On the contrary, I think he'll become even better this way. To me, Rooney is a goalscorer who happens to move around a lot. He can move around a lot as a lone striker as well. He'll just leave the offensive playmaking to Kagawa, who's wastly better than Rooney in this particular aspect. Rooney's not dictating the play at all. He's just bothering the opponent by constantly running at them and being a constant goal threat(because he's a striker).




Kagawa did start out his career as a defensive midfielder, so it's not a more stupid decision to play him there than it is to play him on the wing.

Having said that, I don't think he's quite aggressive enough to cut it at the highest level. In the J-League, sure no problem. But the PL is a bit too rough. Even though Modric is light-weight, he's still more aggressive and direct in his playstyle than Kagawa is.
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:lol:
 
shaggy said:
:lol:
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Kagawa does not have a better first touch than Rooney? Nor better technique? Nor quicker turns? Nor better passing? Nor more creativity? Nor better ball retention? Nor a better eye for an assist?

If I'm not mistaken, these are most of the important skills a no.10 needs. In addition to this, you can add goalscoring, long shots and aggression. These are aspects I have no problem whatsoever admitting that Rooney is better than Kagawa at. But Kagawa wins at the other stuff, hands down. And that's not an insult to Rooney! If we were to put Kagawa in the striker position, then Rooney would completely shit over Kagawa, because that his position.

People need to stop calling Rooney a no.10, when he's actually a striker. It's not only an insult to no.10s, but it also puts unneccessary pressure on Rooney. The very reason he's been criticized in the past, is because people have expected him to be better at the typical no.10 skills. But has Rooney every really been on lengthy runs where he's failed in the striker aspects of game? I for one can't remember that being the case for the last 5 years or so at least.

Rooney is a striker. When Rooney plays, we play 4-4-2. And Rooney is awesome as a striker. Not as a no.10. End of story.
 
Mad Winger said:
Kagawa does not have better first touch than Rooney? Nor better technique? Nor quicker turns? Nor better passing? Nor more creativity? Nor better ball retention? Nor a better eye for an assist?

If I'm not mistaken, these are most of the important skills a no.10 needs. In addition to this, you can add goalscoring, long shots and aggression. These are aspects I have no problem whatsoever admitting that Rooney is better than Kagawa at. But Kagawa wins at the other stuff, hands down. And that's not an insult to Rooney! If we were to put Kagawa in the striker position, then Rooney would completely shit over Kagawa, because that his position.

People need to stop calling Rooney a no.10, when he's actually a striker. It's not only an insult to no.10s, but it also puts unneccessary pressure on Rooney. The very reason he's been criticized in the past, is because people have expected him to be better at the typical no.10 skills. But has Rooney every really been on lengthy runs where he's failed in the striker aspects of game? I for one can't remember that being the case for the last 5 years or so at least.

Rooney is a striker. When Rooney plays, we play 4-4-2. And Rooney is awesome in as a striker. Not as a no.10. End of story.
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Wast response.
 
Don't know why some are convinced that Sir Alex would've sold Rooney. He had a real soft spot for him and didn't he say that he's not for sale right after saying he wanted to leave? Look how understanding he's been acting about the situation when doing his interviews.

Anyways if we're going diamond, this would be the one.

----------RVP-----Rooney-----
-------------Kagawa------------
-------Fellaini-----Januzaj-----
--------------Carrick------------
Evra--Smalling--Evans-Rafa
 
Mad Winger said:
Kagawa does not have a better first touch than Rooney? Nor better technique? Nor quicker turns? Nor better passing? Nor more creativity? Nor better ball retention? Nor a better eye for an assist?

If I'm not mistaken, these are most of the important skills a no.10 needs. In addition to this, you can add goalscoring, long shots and aggression. These are aspects I have no problem whatsoever admitting that Rooney is better than Kagawa at. But Kagawa wins at the other stuff, hands down. And that's not an insult to Rooney! If we were to put Kagawa in the striker position, then Rooney would completely shit over Kagawa, because that his position.

People need to stop calling Rooney a no.10, when he's actually a striker. It's not only an insult to no.10s, but it also puts unneccessary pressure on Rooney. The very reason he's been criticized in the past, is because people have expected him to be better at the typical no.10 skills. But has Rooney every really been on lengthy runs where he's failed in the striker aspects of game? I for one can't remember that being the case for the last 5 years or so at least.

Rooney is a striker. When Rooney plays, we play 4-4-2. And Rooney is awesome as a striker. Not as a no.10. End of story.
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Great post. Most games where Rooney supposedly plays bad are games when he wasn't orchestrating our offense. Which of course is ridiculous to expect from a striker, no matter where you play him.

Rooney is just a regular 4-4-2 striker, who drops deeper than his partner to receive balls - something most of the 4-4-2 formations has used. But there is a huge difference between dropping in to this space and real number 10's who occupy this space as a normality and usually "drops" to the sides of the pitch or the midfield to always be at a numerical advantage. Like you say the skill-set of a real number 10 is vastly different from who Rooney is as a player and his attributes.

Playing Rooney in the hole means we will almost inevitably lose the possession-battle against the top teams and our only chance is to play on the counter.(Even Swansea, Everton and Southampton have higher avg. possession than us.) Only Liverpool of the top-teams has a lower average possession than us, which is not weird as they use the same style due to Suarez/Sturridge.

Of course there is nothing wrong with that, but some people expect both RVP/Rooney to start and for us to dominate the play against the top teams. It is easy to criticize our midfielders for not dominating the middle of the pitch or lacking the creative ability - but one has to remember they are always one man down. That extra man who is specialized at keeping possession and being a play-maker is who is supposed to make the team dominate possession and orchestrate the offense.
 
Aboutreika18 said:
FranklyVulgar was alright, he at least provided a more intelligent counterbalance to the spasticity of Boss, Cal and Lailliani around that time when Messi v Ronaldo was at its peak.
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Messi vs Ronaldo is easily the biggest clusterfeck in the history of the CAF in terms of player vs player arguments, although Hargreaves vs Carrick runs it close. I've always liked the Chief as a poster, but throw him in that group with his multi-quoting and obsession with Messi performing in a World Cup and those threads were a nightmare. I'm pretty sure FV was the poster who went one on one with the Chief when it came to multi-quoting:lol:
 
Mad Winger said:
Kagawa does not have a better first touch than Rooney? Nor better technique? Nor quicker turns? Nor better passing? Nor more creativity? Nor better ball retention? Nor a better eye for an assist?
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He might have.

I haven't seen anything to suggest that he actually has.

So far he's proven jack shit. At United that is, and that's what matters, to me.

Verdict so far: Flop.
 
The notion that we play some sort of old school 4-4-2, and that this is the cause of our midfield woes - is faulty.

Going by some of the posts on here you could be forgiven for thinking Rooney is a box player who is - for some inscrutable reason - preferred in the hole to the best attacking midfielder in the world.

I don't particularly care for the assist stat - but some of you might find it interesting that in addition to his five goals thus far, Rooney has four assists - which is what Özil has for Arsenal (they're joint assist leaders with a bunch of others).*

* That's league only, by the way.
 
Floyd said:
He might have.

I haven't seen anything to suggest that he actually has.

So far he's proven jack shit. At United that is, and that's what matters, to me.

Verdict so far: Flop.
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Slightly harsh, but he's been largely underwhelming. We all know he looked brilliant against Norwich, but that was one game against a lesser team. Posters like Mad Winger are basing their opinions mostly on his Dortmund form and the occasional glimpse for United. If Kagawa wasn't the mythical number 10 many have been crying out for he'd be getting a lot more stick. But seeing as tika taka is all the rage people get a hard on for small, technically skilled attackers and ignore their actual contribution on the pitch.
 
MadWinger is in full meltdown here. Great to see a man lose himself arguing such a retarded position.
 
Mad Winger said:
This is true. I don't think that Kagawa is a better player than Rooney, but he's a waaaaaay better no.10. I've said it a million times, and I'll say it again: it would benefit our team if Kagawa got to play behind the striker because our CM is too weak. Right now we're just pushing stars into our lineup and hoping for the best. It will not work long term.

4-4-2 is reserved for teams with outstanding world class midfielders. 4-2-3-1 with a proper no.10 is therefore the way to go for us, unless we pretty much change our entire midfield with new world class midfielders(which is never gonna happen).

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As for the Silva vs Kagawa discussion, it's laughable how ridiculously underrated Kagawa's passing is. Either that, or you lot just completely ignore the Bundesliga or Japanese national team, where Kagawa has had many brilliant through balls, lobs, flicks, low crosses, and otherwise defense-splitting passes. If you think that the reason Silva works better on the wing than Kagawa is because he's better at passing, then you simply don't understand football.
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There is a perfectly logical reason as to why Kagawa's current performances for Japan and past one for Dortmund matter little, Man Utd play an entirely different brand of football. Kagawa is no special talent for Utd to alter its style of play for him to be at his best. It's rarely happened at Utd before.
He might have looked a world beater in Germany but I honestly don't care anymore about those performances. This is an entirely different setting.
 
Mad Winger said:
Kagawa does not have a better first touch than Rooney? Nor better technique? Nor quicker turns? Nor better passing? Nor more creativity? Nor better ball retention? Nor a better eye for an assist?

.
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Nope. I also think that if we were to sell him back to Dortmunt you would become a Dortmunt fan and would never be seen again.
 
Floyd said:
He might have.

I haven't seen anything to suggest that he actually has.
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Even for United it's clear as day that Kagawa is more creative, has quicker turns, better first touch, and is generally better at passing. He just hasn't been able to put these skills to use as much as he potentially could have, mainly because he's not been given a proper chance in his best position, except for the very beginning and right after his injury. Ever since the Norwich game, he's looked classy whenever he's played in the no.10 position. Too bad it's been less than 100 minutes combined.


kouroux said:
There is a perfectly logical reason as to why Kagawa's current performances for Japan and past one for Dortmund matter little, Man Utd play an entirely different brand of football. Kagawa is no special talent for Utd to alter its style of play for him to be at his best.
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So how come Kagawa's looked so good whenever he's played as a no.10 ever since the Norwich game? Is it all a coinscidence? We're talking about roughly 100 minutes in 5 different games against 4 different opponents here. 2 goals and 2 assists, and several chances created. That seems pretty Dortmund-ish to me.

Just because Kagawa doesn't play well on the wing, it doesn't mean he needs a Dortmund setup to play well. It means that he needs to play in his strongest position. Mindblowing stuff, isn't it?

And it's also wrong to consider playing Kagawa in the no.10 position to be altering our style to fit one player. We're simply deciding that we want no.10 skills rather than striker skills in the hole, simply because we lack creativity and good attacking play. Fergie would always alter our style to better fit the rest of the world and the set of players we had. Chances are he'd occasionally play Kagawa as a no.10 if he was still around.
 
Mad Winger said:
So how come Kagawa's looked so good whenever he's played as a no.10 ever since the Norwich game? Is it all a coinscidence? We're talking about roughly 100 minutes in 5 different games against 4 different opponents here. 2 goals and 2 assists, and several chances created. That seems pretty Dortmund-ish to me.

Just because Kagawa doesn't play well on the wing, it doesn't mean he needs a Dortmund setup to play well. It means that he needs to play in his strongest position. Mindblowing stuff, isn't it?

And it's also wrong to consider playing Kagawa in the no.10 position to be altering our style to fit one player. We're simply deciding that we want no.10 skills rather than striker skills in the hole, simply because we lack creativity and good attacking play. Fergie would always alter our style to better fit the rest of the world and the set of players we had. Chances are he'd occasionally play Kagawa as a no.10 if he was still around.
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Why are you only talking about Dortmund there ? Why are you interpreting the things I said to the extreme by the way ? Did I say he only needs a Dortmund set up to play well ? How about his individual performances for Japan on the left side ? Aren't those better than his Utd ones ?
 
kouroux said:
How about his individual performances for Japan on the left side ? Aren't those better than his Utd ones ?
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1) Japan pretty much play with wingbacks. They'll often switch to 3-4-3 because it's not that much of a difference.

2) For Japan, Kagawa is more of a left forward than a left winger. Kind of like Neymar for Brazil/Barca.

3) Japan's average opponent is significantly weaker than our average opponent. It's therefore easier for Kagawa to look good for Japan, even when played out of position.

4) Kagawa has not looked half as good for Japan as he's looked for Dortmund. I'm not saying that he's been bad or average for Japan, but we're Manchester United. We want the absolute best from our players, and judging by that, Kagawa's performances for Japan are not good enough. But even if they were, we still have to keep in mind that he's not a really a winger for Japan. If we start playing with hyperoffensive fullbacks and a midfield 3, then yes, Kagawa might start to become good enough on the left. But that would mean changing our setup way more than it would if we put Kagawa in behind the striker. And even then, after all that, he'd still most likely be below his Dortmund level.
 
It's gonna end in tears for you, isn't it, MW?

Possible already has.
 
B20 said:
It's gonna end in tears for you, isn't it, MW?
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Nah... As long is it ends, I'm gonna be happy one way or another. Either Kagawa takes the no.10 position, or he magically learns to become a left winger, or he leaves. All of these solutions are better than the current situation.
 
Football in England is overtly physical. Attacking midfielders are rarely central players and are much more commonly wingers known for their pace and athleticism. To play in the center, a defender, midfielder or striker in most cases must be tall, quick and/or physically strong. Kagawa ticks none of these boxes.

At Dortmund, Kagawa's physical qualities were no problem. There he was able to use his technical and tactical ability to create space. A master of finding space off the ball, he received sublime service from deeper players like Nuri Sahin, Ilkay Gundogan and even center-back Mats Hummels. There he engaged in clever one-two passes with Mario Goetze and received headers and back-heels from striker Robert Lewandowski.
Kagawa greatly benefited from Dortmund's sophisticated passing game and would create play in all sorts of subtle ways, from quick turns to dummies to one-two passes. In most cases he played with only one or two touches.
Manchester United play with a different style that does not suit him. They attack from wide positions and quick wingers race up the flanks. When the ball is in the center, it's typically the pacey Wayne Rooney or Robin van Persie running at defenders on a counterattack.
When used behind a main striker at United, Kagawa has no Sahin or Gundogan to play the ball from deep and therefore may have to drop back (and out of position) to receive the ball. And he is not of the build to be able to chase down long, high passes. When on the left he is out of his natural element.

Like Sahin before him, Kagawa left an ideal situation at Dortmund for a more traditional power that moved him out of his element. Come January, it may be time for Kagawa and United to part ways.
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http://bleacherreport.com/articles/...rtmund-but-is-struggling-at-manchester-united
 
Sean_RedDevil said:
We should try Kagawa as CM 1-2 times in the next weeks

----------Kagawa------Fellaini/Jones
Valencia---------Rooney-----------Nani/Januzaj
---------------Van Persie
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We'd be better off putting Rooney in CM and moving Kagawa up. Don't think he's capable of a CM role.
 
Kagawa reminds me of Diego form Wolfsburg, he won the Bundesliga Player of the Season award and then went on to be a flop in Italy. I can think of a number of players that were good in the Bundesliga but not in other leagues.


Diego was also a classic number 10.
 
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