Shinji Kagawa

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Sean_RedDevil said:
Maybe

But Kagawa will be never a good winger........if he plays not in central midfield (CM or ACM) then we should sell him IMO.
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Not an out and out winger, no, but he can be good coming inside from a wide position. He's done that at Dortmund and he's always played that role for Japan. He's certainly closer to being a wide AM than he is to being a CM.

I still maintain, however, that we should play him as #10 and just give Rooney a free role. It would barely effect Rooney when he's in this sort of form, and it would double Kagawa's effectiveness.
 
UnofficialDevil said:
Kagawa reminds me of Diego form Wolfsburg, he won the Bundesliga Player of the Season award and then went on to be a flop in Italy. I can think of a number of players that were good in the Bundesliga but not in other leagues.


Diego was also a classic number 10.
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Kagawa is not a classic number 10.
 
UnofficialDevil said:
Kagawa reminds me of Diego form Wolfsburg, he won the Bundesliga Player of the Season award and then went on to be a flop in Italy. I can think of a number of players that were good in the Bundesliga but not in other leagues.


Diego was also a classic number 10.
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Attackers tend to look better over there due to the defending, which is generally poor when you take away the top 2-3 teams.
 
Brightonian said:
Not an out and out winger, no, but he can be good coming inside from a wide position. He's done that at Dortmund and he's always played that role for Japan. He's certainly closer to being a wide AM than he is to being a CM.

I still maintain, however, that we should play him as #10 and just give Rooney a free role. It would barely effect Rooney when he's in this sort of form, and it would double Kagawa's effectiveness.
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I like this. Rooney was all over the place on Sunday...you can't pin him to a position when he is in that mood. Kagawa would be more effective and probably bring Van Persie into play a bit more.
 
UnofficialDevil said:
Kagawa reminds me of Diego form Wolfsburg, he won the Bundesliga Player of the Season award and then went on to be a flop in Italy. I can think of a number of players that were good in the Bundesliga but not in other leagues.

Diego was also a classic number 10.
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Completely different player, to be fair.
 
Brightonian said:
Not an out and out winger, no, but he can be good coming inside from a wide position. He's done that at Dortmund and he's always played that role for Japan. He's certainly closer to being a wide AM than he is to being a CM.

I still maintain, however, that we should play him as #10 and just give Rooney a free role. It would barely effect Rooney when he's in this sort of form, and it would double Kagawa's effectiveness.
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Defensively this wouldn't work out though. If Kagawa is playing through the middle then Rooney cannot have a free role as someone has to protect Evra who needs all the help he can get these days.

btw Diego was a class player:drool:
 
UnofficialDevil said:
Kagawa reminds me of Diego form Wolfsburg, he won the Bundesliga Player of the Season award and then went on to be a flop in Italy. I can think of a number of players that were good in the Bundesliga but not in other leagues.


Diego was also a classic number 10.
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First off, Diego never won that award, not even in his best times at Bremen. In his last year before going to Juventus Arjen Robben won that award. I also think it is harsh to call him a flop there. In his first and only season over there he scored 16 times (5 goals/11 assists) in 33 league games despite the chaotic circumstances at Juventus in that year (having 3 coaches in one season). He also played a pretty decent season at Atletico Madrid two years later.
 
Sean_RedDevil said:
We should try Kagawa as CM 1-2 times in the next weeks

----------Kagawa------Fellaini/Jones
Valencia---------Rooney-----------Nani/Januzaj
---------------Van Persie
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Why no Carrick?

Tempted to go for this myself, Rooney could drop deeper himself as well.
 
adexkola said:
Rooney has excelled for us on the left in the past.
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I know he's played well there in the past, it doesn't mean much though. He's played well in central midfield as well but you wont see many suggesting he moves back there.

Rooney is currently in his best position and is playing some of the best football of his career. It would be madness to shift him over to the wing just to accommodate Kagawa.
 
If we're gonna turn Kagawa into a winger, then we should start the process of powering him up. And that starts with this über manly song!

 
He came on in the second half against Netherlands today. Japan instantly looked so much better.

The two highlights for him were when he received the ball centrally about 20-25 yards out, dribbled past a defender, and fired a good shot on goal with his left foot. It took a great save from the goalkeeper to stop it. The other highlight was his perfectly timed defense-splitting pass. Kakitani was alone on goal, but missed his chance. Had that been Rooney or RVP, it would have been a sure goal.

Say what you want about Kagawa, but for Dortmund and Japan(which play totally different styles, mind you), Kagawa has been bossing the game against opponents like Argentina, Italy, Netherlands, Bayern, Schalke and many other fairly strong teams. What Japan and Dortmund have in common, is that there's a lot of off-the-ball movement. Even if Kagawa plays slightly more to the left for Japan(though not nearly enough to be called a winger), he still has several players making lung-busting runs around him.

At United, we seem to value defensive stability, which again leaves little room for all this movement. That's why I think Kagawa wont cut it on the wing. It's not that the PL is too physical that makes things hard for Kagawa. It's the fact that we play with too little movement. That's why I'm sure that he'd shine for Arsenal(for instance).
 
Mad Winger said:
He came on in the second half against Netherlands today. Japan instantly looked so much better.

The two highlights for him were when he received the ball centrally about 20-25 yards out, dribbled past a defender, and fired a good shot on goal with his left foot. It took a great save from the goalkeeper to stop it. The other highlight was his perfectly timed defense-splitting pass. Kakitani was alone on goal, but missed his chance. Had that been Rooney or RVP, it would have been a sure goal.

Say what you want about Kagawa, but for Dortmund and Japan(which play totally different styles, mind you), Kagawa has been bossing the game against opponents like Argentina, Italy, Netherlands, Bayern, Schalke and many other fairly strong teams. What Japan and Dortmund have in common, is that there's a lot of off-the-ball movement. Even if Kagawa plays slightly more to the left for Japan(though not nearly enough to be called a winger), he still has several players making lung-busting runs around him.

At United, we seem to value defensive stability, which again leaves little room for all this movement. That's why I think Kagawa wont cut it on the wing. It's not that the PL is too physical that makes things hard for Kagawa. It's the fact that we play with too little movement. That's why I'm sure that he'd shine for Arsenal(for instance).
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Good post. It's too early to say what styles Moyes will actually aim for though, if he fits one of them then great, if not I would think he'll cash in for players that do fit.
 
Mad Winger said:
He came on in the second half against Netherlands today. Japan instantly looked so much better.

The two highlights for him were when he received the ball centrally about 20-25 yards out, dribbled past a defender, and fired a good shot on goal with his left foot. It took a great save from the goalkeeper to stop it. The other highlight was his perfectly timed defense-splitting pass. Kakitani was alone on goal, but missed his chance. Had that been Rooney or RVP, it would have been a sure goal.

Say what you want about Kagawa, but for Dortmund and Japan(which play totally different styles, mind you), Kagawa has been bossing the game against opponents like Argentina, Italy, Netherlands, Bayern, Schalke and many other fairly strong teams. What Japan and Dortmund have in common, is that there's a lot of off-the-ball movement. Even if Kagawa plays slightly more to the left for Japan(though not nearly enough to be called a winger), he still has several players making lung-busting runs around him.

At United, we seem to value defensive stability, which again leaves little room for all this movement. That's why I think Kagawa wont cut it on the wing. It's not that the PL is too physical that makes things hard for Kagawa. It's the fact that we play with too little movement. That's why I'm sure that he'd shine for Arsenal(for instance).
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He's definitely a player who likes movement around him and slick interplay. We haven't played anything like that for a while so what do we do with him?
 
MoneyMay said:
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Cheers for the video mate, that was some good effort for the goal and a brilliant through ball to Honda that Mad Winger previously mentioned. I love watching Japan play, so much movement, it's a shame that they can't finish their chances quite often.
 
Kostur said:
Cheers for the video mate, that was some good effort for the goal and a brilliant through ball to Honda that Mad Winger previously mentioned. I love watching Japan play, so much movement, it's a shame that they can't finish their chances quite often.
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I didn't make it. It's from a user who loves Japanese players - subscribe to their channel. :)
 
JaffyJoe said:
We haven't played anything like that for a while so what do we do with him?
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A) Change our style to an offensive 4-3-3, and let him play as an AM in that formation.
B) Let him play behind the striker as a no.10, and let Rooney and RVP fight for the striker position.
C) Keep doing what we're doing and prey that he magically turns into something he's not. Stranger things have happened.
D) Sell him ASAP. We need to cash in before we ruin his reputation and market value completely.

I prefer either A or B, but that's a hardly a surprise:p
 
Mad Winger said:
A) Change our style to an offensive 4-3-3, and let him play as an AM in that formation.
B) Let him play behind the striker as a no.10, and let Rooney and RVP fight for the striker position.
C) Keep doing what we're doing and prey that he magically turns into something he's not. Stranger things have happened.
D) Sell him ASAP. We need to cash in before we ruin his reputation and market value completely.

I prefer either A or B, but that's a hardly a surprise:p
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Maybe he cant cut it as an AM in the premier league like this guy tries to point out


Football in England is overtly physical. Attacking midfielders are rarely central players and are much more commonly wingers known for their pace and athleticism. To play in the center, a defender, midfielder or striker in most cases must be tall, quick and/or physically strong. Kagawa ticks none of these boxes.

At Dortmund, Kagawa's physical qualities were no problem. There he was able to use his technical and tactical ability to create space. A master of finding space off the ball, he received sublime service from deeper players like Nuri Sahin, Ilkay Gundogan and even center-back Mats Hummels. There he engaged in clever one-two passes with Mario Goetze and received headers and back-heels from striker Robert Lewandowski.
Kagawa greatly benefited from Dortmund's sophisticated passing game and would create play in all sorts of subtle ways, from quick turns to dummies to one-two passes. In most cases he played with only one or two touches.

When used behind a main striker at United, Kagawa has no Sahin or Gundogan to play the ball from deep and therefore may have to drop back (and out of position) to receive the ball. And he is not of the build to be able to chase down long, high passes. When on the left he is out of his natural element.
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Dortmund was a system that suited him perfectly and may have made him look better than he actually is. He just won't get a chance to prove me wrong while Rooney is here and playing the way he is. Real's players tend to float which makes them harder to pick up but of course they are devastating on the counter. I don't know how that would work here, I would like to see three behind Van Persie constanly interchanging. Rooney, Nani and Kagawa.
 
MoneyMay said:
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I wasn't very impressed by that. He lost the ball well into double figures, you can just see all the same issues, even in this mythical Japanese system where he is supposed to thrive. His best moments came when Holland sat off. When he was put under any pressure he folded like a deck chair.

How the feck does Mad Winger interpret that as him 'bossing the game'? Makes you wonder if all these other supposedly great performance were also uninspiring.
 
He didn't boss the game, I agree, though Mad Winger tends to exaggerate, which is no problem for me really. His performance was good, he drifted between the interior and #10 position and was successful at picking a couple of great passes.

Kagawa usually plays as an interior for Japan, but does tend to move to a #10. I am more than certain that Moyes knows this now and that's why Rooney and Kagawa switched positions vs. Arsenal. At least the "problem" has been identified. It's how you integrate this successfully that's vital now because, on a couple of occasions, Kagawa being too central can create a problem for us. Promising signings, though.
 
Mad Winger said:
God damn Mad Winger for having a different opinion than a professional manager! Every other manager would have done the same Moyes!
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If people weren't allowed to disagree with the manager then this place would be pointless, I agree. I wasn't poking fun because you disagree with Moyes, but because you're clearly under the impression that anyone who completely disagrees with you on Kagawa could only possibly do so because they are misinformed or have a less sophisticated appreciation of the game than you. Which of course is very amusing considering Moyes obviously doesn't agree with you.

Mad Winger said:
People are unfortunately not willing to even consider this solution. The true FM spirit dictates that the biggest stars have to play, no matter what.
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Mad Winger said:
Ahhhh... The stupid... It actually hurts!
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Mad Winger said:
... and here you pretty much show that you don't understand the complexities of football at all.
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Mad Winger said:
I think it's important for these people to understand that...[blah blah blah]
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If you can't see how absurd it is that you're "educating" people on Kagawa and the wonderful complexities of football then I don't know what to say...all you can do is laugh.
 
I like Kagawa as a player and I do agree he would benefit with more movement etc but then wouldn't every other player? We've seen RVP in Arsenal's side for example, I'm sure all the players would benefit in a more fluid side but everyone has had to adapt to Manchester United, why should one player be excused?
 
So that's bossing a game in M.W's book ... Undoubtedly I'll be told that I should have watched the match in its entirety and it would probably be the truth. M.W's constant and unconditional worshiping of Kagawa is funny as well as annoying.
 
He was great in that game, he came on and Japan instantly went up a level. His performances for Japan impress me more than those for us or even how he was at Dortmund, and they come from the left. Shows you what a system that perfectly fits a player can do for his level regardless of which position the player plays. If I were running things at barca, I'd be interested in his services.
 
pocco said:
How the feck does Mad Winger interpret that as him 'bossing the game'?
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'Bossing the game' might be a bit of an exagerration, but he looked really good and comfortable out there. Netherlands hardly made things hard for him, minaly because he moved around well. He created 2 massive chances on his own, both of which should have ended up in goals. He was also heavily involved in the game, and even dropped down to help the defense a couple of times. Kagawa's performance seem to be praised all over the internet, so he definitely had a good game.

Turning this into a bad or even mediocre performance, is really harsh and overly critical. If you can't even admit that this was a good performance, then I wonder what you think about 90% of our midfielders and wingers... Kagawa's performance tonight was much better than the average performance of the likes of Valencia, Nani, Giggs, Young, Cleverley, Fellaini, and even Rooney and Januzaj.
 
Mad Winger said:
'Bossing the game' might be a bit of an exagerration, but he looked really good and comfortable out there. Netherlands hardly made things hard for him, minaly because he moved around well. He created 2 massive chances on his own, both of which should have ended up in goals. He was also heavily involved in the game, and even dropped down to help the defense a couple of times. Kagawa's performance seem to be praised all over the internet, so he definitely had a good game.

Turning this into a bad or even mediocre performance, is really harsh and overly critical. If you can't even admit that this was a good performance, then I wonder what you think about 90% of our midfielders and wingers... Kagawa's performance tonight was much better than the average performance of the likes of Valencia, Nani, Giggs, Young, Cleverley, Fellaini, and even Rooney and Januzaj.
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It was an international friendly hardly a game to judge anything at all, but are you serious? Kagawa's performance tonight was much better than the average performance of the likes of Valencia, Nani, Giggs, Young, Cleverley, Fellaini, and even Rooney and Januzaj? are you in love with him or something?
 
UnofficialDevil said:
It was an international friendly hardly a game to judge anything at all, but are you serious? Kagawa's performance tonight was much better than the average performance of the likes of Valencia, Nani, Giggs, Young, Cleverley, Fellaini, and even Rooney and Januzaj? are you in love with him or something?
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The average performance of the players mentioned(maybe apart from Rooney) over the last year or so, has usually been around 6 out of 10. Maybe a 6.5, depending on the player.

Kagawa's performance tonight was a 7 out of 10 at the very worst. An 8 might be a bit too nice seeing as he sqaundered possession a little more than usual and didn't manage to score or assist. But it was definitely a good performance, and that seems to be the general opinion outside of this forum.
 
pocco said:
It's the sheer amount of times he lost the ball that disappointed me. I might go back over it tomorrow and count them, but it seemed a lot. Especially for 45 mins or however long he played.
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If I remember correctly, he was only muscled off the ball twice. He also had one or two misplaced passes. But none of these mistakes made an impact on the game at all. And considering that Rooney does the same thing(and then some!) on a regular basis, I don't think Kagawa should be criticized that much for these tiny errors. At least he did well in the other aspects! The way he managed to create those two massive chances were really classy, and it's definitely something I want to see more of. It really reminded me of Kagawa at his best.

It's also worth keeping in mind that the Netherlands is a strong team. Friendly game or not. Japan was definitely the underdog in this game.
 
UnofficialDevil said:
Never seen him play, just trying to annoy mad winger
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:lol:

In all fairness, Honda is a really good player. It's 99.9% sure that he goes to Milan in January. It will be nice to see him finally play for a relatively big team in a big league. He's been really good in Netherlands and Russia, so the signs are promising.
 
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