Bundesliga 13/14

Going to be difficult for Dortmund to pick themselves up from this. Not only did they get beat, they got beat playing some good football. The consistent loss of quality players was always going to hurt them in the long run. Very difficult to see a way forward from here.




Or perhaps it is as a result of playing the best team in the world with all of your back 4 injured? Didn't some fans in here keep on mentioning the 3-0 loss to Fulham a few seasons back when you had most of your defence out as a major reason for losing the league?

I don't think many teams would be happy playing bayern even with a first choice back 4, let alone without them.

Ffs, couldn't bayern have been this good when they met Chelsea? Things could have been so different. :(
 
Can't help but feel a bit gutted for Dortmund.
Lewandowski was absolutely awful.
 
charleysurf said:
:) is it my fault that the hipsters are so fecking sensitive? It's not as though many of they are slow to criticise certain managers closer to home!
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No but it is your fault for posting nonsense and then calling everyone who disagrees with you a hipster. You were going mental about people questioning a manager who has won nothing (and you were right to criticise them) yet then say that Klopp has been found out.
 
africanspur said:
Going to be difficult for Dortmund to pick themselves up from this. Not only did they get beat, they got beat playing some good football. The consistent loss of quality players was always going to hurt them in the long run. Very difficult to see a way forward from here.




Or perhaps it is as a result of playing the best team in the world with all of your back 4 injured? Didn't some fans in here keep on mentioning the 3-0 loss to Fulham a few seasons back when you had most of your defence out as a major reason for losing the league?

I don't think many teams would be happy playing bayern even with a first choice back 4, let alone without them.

Ffs, couldn't bayern have been this good when they met Chelsea? Things could have been so different. :(
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I think Chelsea would have still found a way to win the CL. It was their year, their luck was amazing.
 
The result doesn't reflect the match to be fair. Dortmund was the better team for the majority of the match and could have leaded and then equalized. In some way the result is like City vs us 2 years ago when while the difference was 5 goals, they didn't dominate that much as the result say.

Anyway, Bayern are awesome and seriously it will be difficult for any team to stop them. Of course today, didn't help the fact that all four main defenders of BVB were out.
 
africanspur said:
Ffs, couldn't bayern have been this good when they met Chelsea? Things could have been so different. :(
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We never would have become that good without going through the pain of that night, so sadly no, we really couldn't :( .
 
RORY65 said:
No but it is your fault for posting nonsense and then calling everyone who disagrees with you a hipster. You were going mental about people questioning a manager who has won nothing (and you were right to criticise them) yet then say that Klopp has been found out.
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It was a bit tongue in cheek obviously. But I do maintain that the God-like status being assigned to Klopp on this board up to a few months ago sets some amazingly high standards to meet...
 
bosnian_red said:
Deceiving scoreline really. Dortmund had the better chances but weren't clinical, and missed those chances at key times. Robben's goal finished it off. Was always going to be hard for them with so many injuries. Ribery and Schweinsteiger, as good as they are, are pretty easily replaced for Bayern, considering their depth. For Dortmund though, any injury in defence is felt.
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Bayern has as many injured players tonight as Dortmund had. No team in the world can easily replace Schweinsteiger, Ribery, Badstuber.
That their absence wasn't felt tonight was not a god gift, but the result of planning and learning by experience.
 
RORY65 said:
No but it is your fault for posting nonsense and then calling everyone who disagrees with you a hipster. You were going mental about people questioning a manager who has won nothing (and you were right to criticise them) yet then say that Klopp has been found out.
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And who lost 4-1 only 2 months ago from a team that isn't nowhere near Bayern's quality. He's acting like a good manager is impossible to lose a game by a big margin when the realty is that it happens to even the best of them. We lost 1-4 to Liverpool in a year whe we were second only to Barca, but agenda-driven people tend to forget these things.
 
strongwalker said:
Bayern has as many injured players tonight as Dortmund had. No team in the world can easily replace Schweinsteiger, Ribery, Badstuber.
That their absence wasn't felt tonight was not a god gift, but the result of planning and learning by experience.
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And money. Come on, let's not downplay how much the injuries hurt Dortmund.
 
strongwalker said:
Bayern has as many injured players tonight as Dortmund had. No team in the world can easily replace Schweinsteiger, Ribery, Badstuber.
That their absence wasn't felt tonight was not a god gift, but the result of planning and learning by experience.
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Thats ridiculous though.

Not saying those players arent important.

But Hummels = Badstuber missing. Gündogan = Schweinsteiger missing. And Ribery is not as bad as the entire back four missing, as it is easier to replace players out of different position than it is to replace an entire defense line.

If Lahm, Alaba, Badstuber & Dante were missing - we can talk again about how Bayerns injuries being as bad as Dortmunds.


Nonetheless. Dortmund did today the best out of the situation and played fairly decent. Bayern was more clinical and the result might be a bit deceiving. Yet I think most people expected the loss and it doesnt harm Dortmund that much. It just means that the title race is almost over and so Dortmund can focus on the two cups.
 
strongwalker said:
Bayern has as many injured players tonight as Dortmund had. No team in the world can easily replace Schweinsteiger, Ribery, Badstuber.
That their absence wasn't felt tonight was not a god gift, but the result of planning and learning by experience.
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You have to compare the resources Bayern has, compared to Dortmund. Bayern can spend at will and are well covered pretty much anywhere on the pitch. Dortmund have a great starting 11, and a few good options on the bench like Sokratis, Aubamayeng and Sahin, but apart from that, it's mostly reserves filling in. They don't have anywhere near the finances available that Bayern does. You're right nobody can easily replace those players, but Bayern has the best players available to them to cover pretty much. You don't feel their absence as much as Dortmund would because you can go and spend 35mil on Dortmunds best player, in positions you don't even need to strengthen in, while Dortmund can buy 1, maybe 2 players each summer. Hard to strengthen the depth when your best players get poached each year.
 
strongwalker said:
Bayern has as many injured players tonight as Dortmund had. No team in the world can easily replace Schweinsteiger, Ribery, Badstuber.
That their absence wasn't felt tonight was not a god gift, but the result of planning and learning by experience.
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The number of injuries is not the problem, it is the concentration in one single area. It is obviously way easier to replace a CB, CM and LW than the whole back line. If Dortmund would have missed Gündogan (about that.....), Hummels (well...) and Reus today, the team would still be way better equipped.

I also would love to hear what was so wrong with their planning going into the season.

They went into the season with the following players:

Hummels - Extremely important not only by leading the defense but also in build up play - currently injured (until 2nd season half)
Subotic - Hummels´ solid partner - currently injured (out for the rest of the season)
Sokratis - qualitiy defender, can play both CB and RB, best Dortmund player today
Sarr - one of Germany´s biggest CB talents - was injured for six weeks and thrown back in his development
Günter - another highly regarded CB talent - missed most of the pre season, had several minor injuries
Schmelzer - solid and consistent LB - currently injured (until mid december)
Piszczek - one of the best RB in the world - was injured the whole season until making his comeback today in the last minutes
Durm - former striker transformed into FB, performed very well when needed, can play both LB and RB
Großkreutz - Klopp´s swiss pocket knife, one of the best Dortmund players in the season, can play both RB and LB

So, they have 5 CB´s and 4 FB´s, whom two can play both sides. On top of that they have Bender, who also plays a damn decent CB, but was needed today in his normal position because their second DM just came back from a 6 weeks long injury and has no play rythm.

They currently have a highly unlikely horror scenario. This is not only about the current injuries, but also about the fact that two of their three talents were thrown back in their development because of injuries. Normally either Sarr or Günter would have had the game of their careers today, but had no play rythm.

How many clubs in the world can carry such a concentrated and huge weight and still be able to stand against a team like Bayern (even with their injured players)? A handful and if I look at their wage bills, they easily double Dortmund´s. You don´t join them to sit on the bench, get payed a lot and play in a highly unlikely scenario. You go their to have a good chance to make it there.
 
Yeah, Dortmund's current injury crisis reminds me of United's in 2010 or 11, when we were overloaded with defenders but they all managed to get injured at pretty much the exact same time, leaving us with Evra and then a few midfielders there :lol: These things happen, and there's no way anybody could prepare for it.

Imagine if Kroos, Thiago, Schweinsteiger, Gotze and Martinez all got injured at the same time? There's no way anybody can prepare for it, and if you buy somebody else to play there, then they likely won't get minutes ever apart from that one rare scenario. Similar thing happening for Dortmund now and happened to United a few years ago. It's the concentration of it, rather then the number (which is still a lot).
 
Sphaero said:
The number of injuries is not the problem, it is the concentration in one single area. It is obviously way easier to replace a CB, CM and LW than the whole back line. If Dortmund would have missed Gündogan (about that.....), Hummels (well...) and Reus today, the team would still be way better equipped.

I also would love to hear what was so wrong with their planning going into the season.

They went into the season with the following players:
[..]
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They went into the season with 3 CBs and 1 striker, for example. Other positions like fullbacks and wingers are often covered by the same man (for example, Großkreutz). There are numerous players in the first teams lineup that can't be adequately replaced. Had they had just 3 injuries, say Hummels, Reus, Lewandowski, who would have replaced them in a big game like today? Schieber? Hofmann?

The defence wasn't really the weak spot, they played very well tonight.

What i have never seen and puzzles me no end is the amount of fuss produced over this. Part of their "we are the underdogs" image campaign Kloppo rides so successfully. Underdogs, my arse. A club with 300Mio revenue and over 50Mio win last season ain't underdogs.

No doubt Watzke will find a way of blaming Dortmunds lack in depth somehow on Uli...
 
strongwalker said:
What i have never seen and puzzles me no end is the amount of fuss produced over this. Part of their "we are the underdogs" image campaign Kloppo rides so successfully. Underdogs, my arse. A club with 300Mio revenue and over 50Mio win last season ain't underdogs.

No doubt Watzke will find a way of blaming Dortmunds lack in depth somehow on Uli...
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What image campaign? I agree that 300 Mil € sounds like a nice number, but so does around 450 Mil €. Thats the annual revenue Bayern Munich had. The 50 Mil € win is also a funny argument given the fact, that the majoritiy of it comes from Bayern waggling a huge chunk of money (around three times as much salary) in front of Mario Götze´s nose to bring him to Munich.

These numbers mean relatively little in terms of competiveness. Way more telling are the 200 Mil. € Bayern expended for wages last season. Dortmund did not even crack the 100 Mil. € mark. As long as the difference is that big, as long as Bayern can pay squad players more than nearly every Bundesliga club does their key players, as long as Bayern can spend 20+ Mil € on players, who are not even expected to start for them, they will be the big favourite to dominate the Bundesliga. This makes every Bundesliga club, including Borussia Dortmund, the underdog in comparision.

Your last sentence just makes you sound extremely bitter, which is weird because your team just won the hardest game of the league season.
 
Dortmund's third loss in a row.

Things could have been different on another day - BVB far too wasteful.

Pep's subs won it.
 
Martinez is such a useful player to have. Allows attacking subs, whilst maintaing a ball playing defender. Thought Neuer was excellent. The saves from Reus and Mkhitaryan were both fantastic.
 
Sphaero said:
What image campaign? I agree that 300 Mil € sounds like a nice number, but so does around 450 Mil €. Thats the annual revenue Bayern Munich had. The 50 Mil € win is also a funny argument given the fact, that the majoritiy of it comes from Bayern waggling a huge chunk of money (around three times as much salary) in front of Mario Götze´s nose to bring him to Munich.
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Götze 38Mio ain't included in those 50 Mio, as the money came in after end of their business year.

These numbers mean relatively little in terms of competiveness. Way more telling are the 200 Mil. € Bayern expended for wages last season.
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Funny, for decades Bayerns wealth was considered to be the reason for their superiority. When other teams have it, it isn't such a big deal any more it seems.
Am i really the only one who thinks it is ridiculous when a club ranking #11 in Europe in terms of revenue still acts as if they were Robin Hood?
 
strongwalker said:
Götze 38Mio ain't included in those 50 Mio, as the money came in after end of their business year.
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Afaik, they didn't get the money before July 1st but the transfer is already included in last season's financial statement. But please don't ask me to explain how that all works exactly, accounting really is something I'll never (want to) understand.


strongwalker said:
Funny, for decades Bayerns wealth was considered to be the reason for their superiority. When other teams have it, it isn't such a big deal any more it seems.
Am i really the only one who thinks it is ridiculous when a club ranking #11 in Europe in terms of revenue still acts as if they were Robin Hood?
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The Robin Hood comparison is of course bullshit, but you need to be careful to not exaggerate in the opposite direction. That's equally dumb. Bayern still have a significant financial advantage over Dortmund and it showed in the game yesterday. I don't think saying that takes anything away from our brilliant work in the last years.
 
Balu said:
Afaik, they didn't get the money before July 1st but the transfer is already included in last season's financial statement. But please don't ask me to explain how that all works exactly, accounting really is something I'll never (want to) understand.
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Not according to this source: http://www.abendblatt.de/sport/arti...chuldenfrei-Rekord-bei-Umsatz-und-Gewinn.html

"Der Gewinn der Borussia Dortmund GmbH & Co. KGaA lag wegen der fehlenden Abschreibungspflicht auf das Stadion sogar bei 53,3 Millionen Euro," [..] "Der FC Bayern habe eine Bruttosumme von rund 40 Millionen Euro am 1. Juli überwiesen, einen Tag nach dem BVB-Bilanzabschluss. Damit ist der Götze-Erlös noch gar nicht in den Geschäftszahlen für 2012/13 enthalten."

Balu said:
The Robin Hood comparison is of course bullshit, but you need to be careful to not exaggerate in the opposite direction. That's equally dumb. Bayern still have a significant financial advantage over Dortmund and it showed in the game yesterday. I don't think saying that takes anything away from our brilliant work in the last years.
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Even Bayern can only field 11 players, so at some point it doesn't matter any more who has more financial muscle.

Do Dortmund have a comparably lack of depth in their squad because they couldn't afford any better? Gimme a break. They could always have added a few decent players but consciously decided not to do. They even loaned out Bittencourt and Leitner. I think Kloppo was underestimating the situation or overestimating his ability.

I can understand they are reluctant to break the bank with their history, but you can't go into a season of BuLi and CL with a squad of ~14 players of first team quality and decide "if someone is injured we have Großkreutz for that". Well you can, but don't expect to win much. And don't blame everyone else if it backfires.

Durm or Hofmann are playing remarkably well, but to rely on that? Also, Dortmunds playstyle is extremely physical and some squad members have been punching above their weight for 3years straight now.
 
Imo Robben would have been among the best 4-5 players in the world if he had stayed fit.
 
Thiago, Martinez, Kroos in midfield with Götze as a false 9 starting today :drool:

/edit:
Robben scores after 111 seconds
 
Balu said:
Thiago, Martinez, Kroos in midfield with Götze as a false 9 starting today :drool:

/edit:
Robben scores after 111 seconds
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I was watching, too easy, great pass from Gotze.
 
Mel_F said:
Gotze is future Ballon d'Or material.
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Definitely, beats players with ease. Keeps the ball well in tight spaces, composed, good passer, he can score too. Great footballing brain.
 
Mel_F said:
Gotze is future Ballon d'Or material.
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Said it before, he's the one who will become the clear standout player in that team within 2 or 3 years, he's really that talented. Hopefully he stays fit for a few seasons now.
 
Balu said:
Said it before, he's the one who will become the clear standout player in that team within 2 or 3 years, he's really that talented. Hopefully he stays fit for a few seasons now.
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I think so too. He just has that extra out of all the younger players. Everything seems simpler and more effortless for him.
 
Balu said:
Said it before, he's the one who will become the clear standout player in that team within 2 or 3 years, he's really that talented. Hopefully he stays fit for a few seasons now.
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Remember a few weeks ago some posters on here were calling him overrated?

Outrageously talented player
 
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Sidney Sam will sign for Schalke in the summer - €2.5m fee as it was his release clause.

Goalie Giefer will join in January.
 
strongwalker said:
Robben has decided games against other teams than Braunschweig.
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I know, that I was just praising him a few posts up, BEFORE the game. Just pointing out a game against the worst team in the league isn't the best to get your point across how good a player is.
 
JaffyJoe said:
I know, that I was just praising him a few posts up, BEFORE the game. Just pointing out a game against the worst team in the league isn't the best to get your point across how good a player is.
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Qustion is, does he really need to prove it? The games he decided on the highest level (United fans should remember at least one of them), his title collection and his record the recent years speak for themselves. For Bayern, he has now 51 goals in 90 games. That is a rate many in-box strikers dream of.
 
strongwalker said:
Qustion is, does he really need to prove it? The games he decided on the highest level (United fans should remember at least one of them), his title collection and his record the recent years speak for themselves. For Bayern, he has now 51 goals in 90 games. That is a rate many in-box strikers dream of.
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Not the good ones, few peoples goal ratio's are impressive in a Ronaldo-Messi world in all honesty. My first point was he could have been not far off them if he had stayed fit.

He hasn't played much over the last 4-5 years, EVERY season is interrupted by an injury. He will go down as a good player, he should have been a great. Injuries stopped that.
 
Thiago, Kroos, Götze in midfield today :drool: . I get incredibly excited everytime I read those 3 together in the line-up.

The rest of the team:
Ribery, Mandzukic, Müller - Alaba, van Buyten, Boateng, Rafinha - Neuer

Bremen has turned into such an awful side, it's really sad, if you compare it to the wonderful attacking players they had in the past 10 years:
Wolf - Gebre Selassie, Lukimya, Caldirola, Garica - Elia, Fritz, Makiadi, Hunt - di Santo, Petersen
 
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