Shinji Kagawa

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He needs someone who can pass the ball to play behind him. We started controlling possession better when we swapped him with Welbeck.
 
Welbeck was clearly unfit, but moving Kagawa to the LW should have never happened. Really disappointed by that decision. If Welbeck wasn't in top shape from the start, why start him?
 
Yeah I didn't get the point of moving kagawa left, we weren't playing great but you could see some momentum building when he was central because of the positions he would take up to keep our play moving. With welbeck central I think you lose attacking threat which is odd to say for a striker but it's true at the moment and with kagawa left you lose the defensive strength welbeck might have brought there but also you lose the bulk of his attacking threat.
 
LW or not, I think its getting fairly obvious to me that he isn't strong enough for this league and neither is he used to the pace of it.

Its no surprise his best performances have come in Europe when he's given more time and space on the ball.
 
I don't thnk Moyes had a choice, midfield wasn't good enough to support Kagawa. He probably should have just brought Hernandez on sooner. Hopefully he learnt more about the team today
 
Although he never plays poorly, this game is typical of his time here. Completely disappeared.
 
He isn't taking his chances, simple as that. He should be more than happy with squad player role at the moment, considering his performances are pretty much average. Moyes moving him wide after 20 minutes and us instantly playing better says all about Kagawa and his "brilliance" when playing behind the striker.
 
MoneyMay said:
Welbeck was clearly unfit, but moving Kagawa to the LW should have never happened. Really disappointed by that decision. If Welbeck wasn't in top shape from the start, why start him?
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Yep. Playing both and then playing kagawa out wide and welbeck central made no sense.
 
MoneyMay said:
Welbeck was clearly unfit, but moving Kagawa to the LW should have never happened. Really disappointed by that decision. If Welbeck wasn't in top shape from the start, why start him?
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No, he was quite clearly fit, as evidenced by the run when he burned Dawson and also when he won the pen. What he's lacking is match sharpness. Kagawa was moved as after a good start he was anonymous and Welbeck held the ball up far better then Rooney was and it freed Rooney to roam around and drop deep and worked very well for a decent period of the game.
 
The thing with him is he is always decent. Nothing more really most of the time. At least coming from the left. Worst decision by Moyes today putting him out on the left again.
 
datura said:
No, he was quite clearly fit, as evidenced by the run when he burned Dawson and also when he won the pen. What he's lacking is match sharpness. Kagawa was moved as after a good start he was anonymous and Welbeck held the ball up far better then Rooney was and it freed Rooney to roam around and drop deep and worked very well for a decent period of the game.
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I don't think he was fit and a couple of runs don't change that. Kagawa was moved to the left because Welbeck was struggling.
 
I thought he worked hard but the increased pace and pressing of the PL sees him struggle on the ball to really affect the game.
 
datura said:
Fitness and match sharpness are two very different things. He did far more then a 'fully fit' Kagawa anyway.
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True. He was better than Kagawa. I think today was always going to be a bit of a struggle for our smaller players because Spurs this season have a very physical and athletic side (with one or two exceptions).
 
Arguably one of Kagawa's worst performances for us. He couldn't really affect the game, though tbf we were far from excellent going forward. Our tempo and passing were crap compared to the Leverkusen game, which on paper was a much tougher game than this. We can't really make any excuses for that. Tottenham weren't that good. They're not in a good period either.

I also think it was a mistake by Moyes to push Kagawa out left already after 30 minutes. It hardly did him any favors.

I think it's clear that Moyes doesn't trust Kagawa that much(yet). Whenever Kagawa fails to impose himself on the game, he either has to change position or he's taken off. In theory that might sound fair, but keep in mind that Kagawa is a quality player. Just because he's a very team oriented player, it doesn't mean that he can't suddenly create those moments of magic that can turn games around. He needs to be trusted, even on mediocre days like this.
 
He's so much better in Europe, which isn't all that relevatory when you think about it... but it is rather irritating.
 
Typical of his career with us so far, from majestic to missing.

It really is a shame as today was his chance to show what he has - but big tough cms just mark him out too easily.
 
Its amazing how many excuses are made for him. He's simply not good enough for this league at present.
 
datura said:
Well he effectively won us a point, so I'd say he was ready.
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What kind of logic is that? I've seen Bale score goals this season, while not looking fully fit or sharp at all. Welbeck was off the pace, he struggled. He made two great runs. Many in the match thread made the comment that he wasn't fit, which describes why he was moved next to Rooney. We couldn't take the risk of him not defending (he wasn't doing a great job). He also came back from injury, which explains everything... Anyway, this slightly off-topic.
 
MoneyMay said:
Kagawa is useless on the left in our system. Welbeck wasn't ready for today.
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He was also useless behind the striker for large period of first half, and when Moyes moved him wide we started playing. Team>Kagawa.
 
Amar__ said:
He isn't taking his chances, simple as that. He should be more than happy with squad player role at the moment, considering his performances are pretty much average. Moyes moving him wide after 20 minutes and us instantly playing better says all about Kagawa and his "brilliance" when playing behind the striker.
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His "chances" as in his excellent game in midweek? Or every other bit of good play when in his best role so far this season? That's the arse talking right there. Sorry, but we didn't play better after the shift at all. We gave up all hope of passing the ball and employed a system whereby Evans and Vidic pumped it long and wide to Valencia for the rest of the game. Now that is "brilliance."

How many times did Cleverley give the ball to Kagawa, or Rooney, in an advanced position? The answer is zero, and that is the end of all debate as far as I'm concerned. You look at that Leverkusen game and compare the difference between Giggs' contribution and that of Cleverley's and we'll get somewhere. Kagawa wasn't good at all today. Poor game. But let's actually look into the reasons why instead of talking shite in an effort to promote some agenda. Our midfield offered absolutely nothing in terms of creativity and instead of attempting to change that, Moyes bit the bullet and went direct.
 
MoneyMay said:
What kind of logic is that? I've seen Bale score goals this season, while not looking fully fit or sharp at all. Welbeck was off the pace, he struggled. He made two great runs. Many in the match thread made the comment that he wasn't fit, which describes why he was moved next to Rooney. We couldn't take the risk of him not defending (he wasn't doing a great job). He also came back from injury, which explains everything...
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So if Bale is unfit but scoring goals, he shouldnt be playing by your 'logic'? Well that makes a lot of sense..

He was moved up top to hold the ball up and release Rooney to play in the hole as Kagawa was anonymous there and it worked, we looked far better and started to control the game (until the last half hour or so when we started defending too deep).
 
datura said:
So if Bale is unfit but scoring goals, he shouldnt be playing by your 'logic'? Well that makes a lot of sense..

He was moved up top to hold the ball up and release Rooney to play in the hole as Kagawa was anonymous there and it worked, we looked far better and started to control the game (until the last half hour or so when we started defending too deep).
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Re-read what I said. I said that being unfit doesn't mean you won't contribute more positively than a player who is more fit. It doesn't mean you should start a game when you're not ready.
 
Some silky touches and good passes but not enough penetration for me. Faded as we got into the 2nd half. Really needs to build up strength and endurance if he is to survive in the Premier League. Nonetheless, played on the left wing for most of the match which is not his best position.
 
He fits into a system where he has attacking creative players around him, but in a game like today he may aswell not turn up at all.
 
He was pretty good, but no service into him is the problem. We need giggs or Carrick to play behind him, and welbeck (who was pretty shit) kept getting his fecking way. Looking at the average positions, both kagawa and welbeck had the exact same position. He needs his space in there and he doesn't get it when welbeck seems to think he's going to roam all over the pitch.
 
Kag said:
His "chances" as in his excellent game in midweek? Or every other bit of good play when in his best role so far this season? That's the arse talking right there. Sorry, but we didn't play better after the shift at all. We gave up all hope of passing the ball and employed a system whereby Evans and Vidic pumped it long and wide to Valencia for the rest of the game. Now that is "brilliance."

How many times did Cleverley give the ball to Kagawa, or Rooney, in an advanced position? The answer is zero, and that is the end of all debate as far as I'm concerned. You look at that Leverkusen game and compare the difference between Giggs' contribution and that of Cleverley's and we'll get somewhere. Kagawa wasn't good at all today. Poor game. But let's actually look into the reasons why instead of talking shite in an effort to promote some agenda. Our midfield offered absolutely nothing in terms of creativity and instead of attempting to change that, Moyes bit the bullet and went direct.
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First of all, I am talking about Premierleague(sorry for not pointing that out), where his performances have been average, or bellow average this season. He simply isn't good enought to start for us behind the striker in Premiership, which he proved couple of times. Yes, he didn't start too many games there, but there is a reason for that, whenever he started in that position in premiership we struggled to keep the ball, he was mainly invisible, same as today.

If you think that we didn't play better after he was moved wide, than you should rewatch the game because everyone here said we started playing better after we brought Welbeck in the middle, and Kagawa was shifted wide.

And I don't see what our midfield has to do with both Welbeck and Rooney playing better in hole than Kagawa did today. If anything, his technique is excellent as far as I know, and he should be showing for ball much more than he was doing that, or generaly in premiership, and not just passing it back to fullback or midfielders every time he has player running at him. Yes, our midfield isn't good enough, but as I said, that didn't stop Rooney, Valencia or even not 100% fit Welbeck to be much mroe involved than him.
 
SirAF said:
Of course he is.
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Some hilariously reactive posts in this thread as per. "Excuses" are made because they do actually have some kind of relevance to the discussion. The post you have quoted is indicative of the kneejerk bollocks that is based on little.
 
datura said:
Yet Welbeck won the penalty and Valencia I don't think created any chances?
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Valencia created one chance. My point still stands. Your point was that an unfit Welbeck did more than a fit Kagawa. My point was that it doesn't matter whether you're match sharp/fit because it doesn't stop you from producing. I also believe Welbeck was moved up front because he was struggling physically - Kagawa did a good job defensively. We didn't need Rooney freed up because Kagawa was the one playing behind Rooney at the start...
 
MoneyMay said:
Valencia created one chance. My point still stands. Your point was that an unfit Welbeck did more than a fit Kagawa. My point was that it doesn't matter whether you're match sharp/fit because it doesn't stop you from producing. I also believe Welbeck was moved up front because he was struggling physically - Kagawa did a good job defensively. We didn't need Rooney freed up because Kagawa was the one playing behind Rooney at the start...
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Rooney was far more effective when he was moved into the hole so that's why we freed him up and Kagawa was not getting into the game after a bright start. I think it was clear to most people that when we changed it we started dominating possession as Welbeck was holding the ball up and linking better then Rooney was, and Rooney was able to get on the ball more and use his range of passing to free up Valencia in particular.
 
Surprised that they didn't try to mix it up a bit and put Welbeck on the left wing and Kagawa behind Rooney. Could have tried it for a period of time during the match when things weren't going our way.
 
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