Shinji Kagawa

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MoneyMay said:
Valencia created one chance. My point still stands. Your point was that an unfit Welbeck did more than a fit Kagawa. My point was that it doesn't matter whether you're match sharp/fit because it doesn't stop you from producing. I also believe Welbeck was moved up front because he was struggling physically - Kagawa did a good job defensively. We didn't need Rooney freed up because Kagawa was the one playing behind Rooney at the start...
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He was moved up front because Kagawa was struggling to bring anyone in our attack into the game, including himself, it wasn't because Welbeck was poor.
 
Amar__ said:
First of all, I am talking about Premierleague(sorry for not pointing that out), where his performances have been average, or bellow average this season. He simply isn't good enought to start for us behind the striker in Premiership, which he proved couple of times. Yes, he didn't start too many games there, but there is a reason for that, whenever he started in that position in premiership we struggled to keep the ball, he was mainly invisible, same as today.

If you think that we didn't play better after he was moved wide, than you should rewatch the game because everyone here said we started playing better after we brought Welbeck in the middle, and Kagawa was shifted wide.

And I don't see what our midfield has to do with both Welbeck and Rooney playing better in hole than Kagawa did today. If anything, his technique is excellent as far as I know, and he should be showing for ball much more than he was doing that, or generaly in premiership, and not just passing it back to fullback or midfielders every time he has player running at him. Yes, our midfield isn't good enough, but as I said, that didn't stop Rooney, Valencia or even not 100% fit Welbeck to be much mroe involved than him.
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I see. I don't understand your argument. Today was the first time in the entirety of our first 13 Premier League games that Kagawa has played behind the striker. There is no basis at all to suggest "he's not good enough to start behind the striker." He hasn't been given the opportunity. Last season, under Sir Alex, he was in good form in the latter half of the season. In this league this season it's been very mixed, yet he's been mostly out wide in our gutless, static 442.

What pisses me off more is that Moyes gave the combination we seen in midweek the grand sum of 30 minutes. I really don't think we played better at all and I don't need to rewatch it. All I can remember is Vidic and Evans, and then Cleverley whenever he received the ball, playing it to Valencia as directly and as quickly as possible. Long term, or even short term, this kind of tactic is inherently negative and the reason we've been shite all season. The midfield was the main problem, not Kagawa. How is it his fault that he received the ball in an advanced position on zero occasions? Cleverley was too scared to do anything. It isn't Jones' job. We should have changed that. I would have started Fellaini for that reason, as I think he does a decent, understated job of passing the ball into the player in the hole. Why not sub Cleverley for Anderson, who would make an attempt at getting the ball into the forwards?

In no way am I saying Kagawa was good today. He wasn't. He did absolutely nothing at all and should have been substituted earlier than he was. But the idea that it is he that isn't good enough is one I'm not having. Giggs had it spot on midweek. He had a good night and Kagawa seen a lot of the ball. Today, the midfielder in Giggs' place did absolutely nothing progressive with the ball, Moyes went negative, and we went back to the 442 which didn't create any chances anyway. We'll have to agree to disagree on what we think we watched, but I really do believe that the "excuses" people speak of aren't really that; they are infact relevant in this case.
 
Amar__ said:
He was moved up front because Kagawa was struggling to bring anyone in our attack into the game, including himself, it wasn't because Welbeck was poor.
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No it was definitely because welbeck wasn't doing anything. Kagawa was pretty good for most of the game, had good passes but welbeck kept coming inside so he didn't have any space because welbeck would also drag in defenders. Hard for any player to do really well there when somebody else keeps going in on your position.
 
Kag said:
I see. I don't understand your argument. Today was the first time in the entirety of our first 13 Premier League games that Kagawa has played behind the striker. There is no basis at all to suggest "he's not good enough to start behind the striker." He hasn't been given the opportunity. Last season, under Sir Alex, he was in good form in the latter half of the season. In this league this season it's been very mixed, yet he's been mostly out wide in our gutless, static 442.

What pisses me off more is that Moyes gave the combination we seen in midweek the grand sum of 30 minutes. I really don't think we played better at all and I don't need to rewatch it. All I can remember is Vidic and Evans, and then Cleverley whenever he received the ball, playing it to Valencia as directly and as quickly as possible. Long term, or even short term, this kind of tactic is inherently negative and the reason we've been shite all season. The midfield was the main problem, not Kagawa. How is it his fault that he received the ball in an advanced position on zero occasions? Cleverley was too scared to do anything. It isn't Jones' job. We should have changed that. I would have started Fellaini for that reason, as I think he does a decent, understated job of passing the ball into the player in the hole. Why not sub Cleverley for Anderson, who would make an attempt at getting the ball into the forwards?

In no way am I saying Kagawa was good today. He wasn't. He did absolutely nothing at all and should have been substituted earlier than he was. But the idea that it is he that isn't good enough is one I'm not having. Giggs had it spot on midweek. He had a good night and Kagawa seen a lot of the ball. Today, the midfielder in Giggs' place did absolutely nothing progressive with the ball, Moyes went negative, and we went back to the 442 which didn't create any chances anyway. We'll have to agree to disagree on what we think we watched, but I really do believe that the "excuses" people speak of aren't really that; they are infact relevant in this case.
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He was given few chances behind the striker while Fergie was here, and he was non existant in most of these games. Or you think differently, if you think so, you can tell me how many times did he start behind the striker in premiership, and how many times he actually played good there?

As for this season, he hasn't started any game behind the striker in premiership, but he was given free role in couple of games, which is probably even better than behind the striker IMO, and yet apart from pointless passing and keeping possession, I rarely saw any brilliance from him. Don't get me wrong, I really like Kagawa, I thought Moyes was really unfair on him at start of the season, you can find my posts, but he is given lot of chances lately, and apart from few games in CL, he showed nothing in premiership to be starter ahead of Januzaj, Nani, Welbeck, let alone Rooney and van Persie.

And btw, I agree with most of the things in your post, I just think that Kagawa don't have more excuses. And you are obviously overrating Leverkusen, because our both games against them were probably our easiest games this season, so you can't really compare that with premiership.
 
bosnian_red said:
No it was definitely because welbeck wasn't doing anything. Kagawa was pretty good for most of the game, had good passes but welbeck kept coming inside so he didn't have any space because welbeck would also drag in defenders. Hard for any player to do really well there when somebody else keeps going in on your position.
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Kagawa was almost non existant in whole game, Welbeck came off 10 minutes earlier and had almost same number of touches as Kagawa. You're free to count me good passes from Kagawa from today's game.
 
Amar__ said:
Kagawa was almost non existant in whole game, Welbeck came off 10 minutes earlier and had almost same number of touches as Kagawa. You're free to count me good passes from Kagawa from today's game.
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I thought he played well overall, but his performance was hampered because welbeck doesn't understand the concept of playing in your position and decides to roam around, making everything tighter and bringing defenders in wards. He didn't have much service into him as cleverley doesn't really know oh to pass the ball forward either.
Welbeck didn't even do anything all game anyways. The penalty was on him but he didn't really do much, it was a good pass from Rooney to set it up and all he had to do was reach the ball. He did basically nothing at all for the rest of the game. Didn't look a threat, didn't make handed, didn't do any passes that could potentially harm the opposition as kagawa always does.
 
bosnian_red said:
I thought he played well overall, but his performance was hampered because welbeck doesn't understand the concept of playing in your position and decides to roam around, making everything tighter and bringing defenders in wards. He didn't have much service into him as cleverley doesn't really know oh to pass the ball forward either.
Welbeck didn't even do anything all game anyways. The penalty was on him but he didn't really do much, it was a good pass from Rooney to set it up and all he had to do was reach the ball. He did basically nothing at all for the rest of the game. Didn't look a threat, didn't make handed, didn't do any passes that could potentially harm the opposition as kagawa always does.
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I must be blind, but can't remember when is the last time Kagawa did those kind of passes.

You really think Moyes would allow Welbeck to roam around in this kind of game, and that that weren't his ideas? I am waiting a video from Kagawa's performance to see what has he done in today's game.
 
Amar__ said:
I must be blind, but can't remember when is the last time Kagawa did those kind of passes.

You really think Moyes would allow Welbeck to roam around in this kind of game, and that that weren't his ideas?
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Well if he told him to roam it was really stupid. Welbeck did get subbed off first so obviously he was the one doing it wrong and getting in kagawas way. And you can't be serious, kagawa does the neat passes into the strikers feet a few times every game, more so then everyone in our squad apart from giggs probably. He did it all game against Leverkusen too.
 
MoneyMay said:
Welbeck was clearly unfit, but moving Kagawa to the LW should have never happened. Really disappointed by that decision. If Welbeck wasn't in top shape from the start, why start him?
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Couldn't agree more MM.

After Leverkusen I also posted in this thread that if we go back to playing two CMs who aren't penetrative or who don't pass through the middle quickly Kagawa will struggle. Spurs also had three in the middle so it was fairly easy to crowd Kagawa out.
 
Kagawa wasn't great today but Nani should have come on to play left side and Kagawa should have been left in the hole. Rooney looked menacing up front and I don't see why Moyes brought on Chicharito if there wasn't to be an appreciable increase in attacking (Young???)
 
LR7 said:
Couldn't agree more MM.

After Leverkusen I also posted in this thread that if we go back to playing two CMs who aren't penetrative or who don't pass through the middle quickly Kagawa will struggle. Spurs also had three in the middle so it was fairly easy to crowd Kagawa out.
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I agree with you, but with giggs not being able to play constantly, we don't have anybody who can do that in midfield, other then Anderson probably, but he's had about 30 minutes of action all season so you can't expect him to start.
 
bosnian_red said:
I agree with you, but with giggs not being able to play constantly, we don't have anybody who can do that in midfield, other then Anderson probably, but he's had about 30 minutes of action all season so you can't expect him to start.
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Yeah I agree. For me the midfield is the issue here. Not Kagawa.
 
bosnian_red said:
Well if he told him to roam it was really stupid. Welbeck did get subbed off first so obviously he was the one doing it wrong and getting in kagawas way. And you can't be serious, kagawa does the neat passes into the strikers feet a few times every game, more so then everyone in our squad apart from giggs probably. He did it all game against Leverkusen too.
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Welbeck started on left wing, and he mainly stayed there at the start, but we struggled to keep possession, with Kagawa being invisible, he barely touched the ball in first 25 minutes, so Moyes swaped Kagawa and Welbeck(that's why you think he was getting into Kagawa's position, but it was other way around because we moved Kagawa wide), and we instantly started looking better(Kagawa was still invisible, but Welbeck started coming deep for the ball, had a few nice one twos with Valencia), we got better in possession, and we actually started controlling the game and creating chances(Kagawa was still invisible, apart from few pointless passes back to the midfielders and Evra).

Welbeck was subbed off because it's his first start in more than a month after knee injury, I was surprised he started at all, but even not fully fit he was much better than Kagawa anyway.
 
Amar__ said:
Welbeck started on left wing, and he mainly stayed there at the start, but we struggled to keep possession, with Kagawa being invisible, he barely touched the ball in first 25 minutes, so Moyes swaped Kagawa and Welbeck(that's why you think he was getting into Kagawa's position, but it was other way around because we moved Kagawa wide), and we instantly started looking better(Kagawa was still invisible, but Welbeck started coming deep for the ball, had a few nice one twos with Valencia), we got better in possession, and we actually started controlling the game and creating chances(Kagawa was still invisible, apart from few pointless passes back to the midfielders and Evra).

Welbeck was subbed off because it's his first start in more than a month after knee injury, I was surprised he started at all, but even not fully fit he was much better than Kagawa anyway.
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Invisible? Hardly, he wasn't the focal point of our attacks as he maybe should have been but our incompetent midfield ensured he wasn't going to be. Moyes is the one at fault there for not recognising that was going to be the case. Hernandez would have been a better choice for this game.
 
Smores said:
Invisible? Hardly, he wasn't the focal point of our attacks as he maybe should have been but our incompetent midfield ensured he wasn't going to be. Moyes is the one at fault there for not recognising that was going to be the case. Hernandez would have been a better choice for this game.
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You have the video above your post, you can barely see him doing anything notable.

And even though we were dominant in possession, stats say that only Welbeck had less touches than Kagawa from our players today, and they were almost on par, even though Welbeck was substituted ten minutes earlier. For example, against Leverkusen we had much less possession, and he had almost double number of touches than he did today.
 
Well, firstly - it's one match. He's allowed an off day, just like anyone else. Secondly, he isn't Maradona. Fielding him in the hole isn't going to automatically fix our problems regardless of what else is going on. Replace an on-fire Giggs with a lackluster Cleverley - and we will be significantly poorer for it, regardless of who we're playing in the hole.

When the CM isn't working properly, we're probably better off using Rooney in the hole. He has more to his game than Kagawa, ultimately, even if he is less suited to a "normal" No 10 role.
 
UnofficialDevil said:
So he was rubbish.
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Not really, he was decent, 6/10 performance. He was better then Welbeck was, or any of the midfielders. Rooney and Valencia were better going forward though. Doesn't mean he was rubbish. Wasn't all his fault either as Welbeck kept drifting inwards when Kagawa was in the middle, leaving kagawa with no option on that side, and a few more players in the middle making it more crowded for him. Also he had to go really deep to pick up the ball as both Cleverley and Jones don't know how to pass it forwards. Compare that to Leverkusen, and we had Nani and Valencia both staying wide all game stretching the pitch, and we had Giggs able to feed Kagawa passes from deep, so he wouldn't have to run 10 yards back every time to pick up the ball.
 
Welbeck had a better game than Kagawa not that it says much for either. Only thing I can remember Kagawa doing was a quick exchange of passes with Welbeck early on. Welbeck won the penalty and had that run in the 2nd half
 
I'm waiting for the day when people stop making excuses for Kagawa. There were a few instances when he had the ball in central areas and instead of going forward played the safe pass. He played within himself today. It's not like he was chained to the left wing.when Welbeck is in the team they can swap positions from time to time because of Danny's flexibility and link up play.
 
datura said:
Haha, what game did you watch??!!
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Well according to their average positions on four four two stat zone, Welbeck and Kagawa were right on top of one another. Either way, Kagawa's game was affected by this. Smartest thing would have been starting Nani instead of Welbeck so there was more natural width and so Kagawa could play his game. I'm not making excuses for him, but it didn't help.
 
LawCharltonBest said:
Well according to their average positions on four four two stat zone, Welbeck and Kagawa were right on top of one another. Either way, Kagawa's game was affected by this. Smartest thing would have been starting Nani instead of Welbeck so there was more natural width and so Kagawa could play his game. I'm not making excuses for him, but it didn't help.
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Welbeck started wide left with the license to roam, with Kagawa behind Rooney. He started brightly, then struggled to have an influence, so Moyes changed it and put Welbeck up front after about 30 mins, Rooney in the hole and Kagawa left. He worked hard enough but still struggled to influence the game. The width on the left was mainly from Evra all game.
 
So early/pre season when I said he would be much more suited and play better in Europe I was derided. Seems to be the case though, he was a lot better on Wednesday.
 
ItsEssexRob said:
So early/pre season when I said he would be much more suited and play better in Europe I was derided. Seems to be the case though, he was a lot better on Wednesday.
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We were better as a team against the Germans. And Giggs was much better than Cleverley. Kagawa isn't so spectacularly good that he will negate our infamous CM conundrum by himself. If we can get some sort of consistently decent CM play going, Kagawa will do just fine in the hole - in the league as well.
 
Chesterlestreet said:
We were better as a team against the Germans. And Giggs was much better than Cleverley. Kagawa isn't so spectacularly good that he will negate our infamous CM conundrum by himself. If we can get some sort of consistently decent CM play going, Kagawa will do just fine in the hole - in the league as well.
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To be fair they gave you so much space, but Kagawa seemed a lot better on the ball and got knocked off it a lot less. As he has done in pretty much every CL game so far.
 
ItsEssexRob said:
To be fair they gave you so much space, but Kagawa seemed a lot better on the ball and got knocked off it a lot less. As he has done in pretty much every CL game so far.
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Aye - that's true: We have been put under less, sustained pressure in the CL as a rule. And obviously we have benefited from that. Our main weakness, however, is that we don't have a CM capable of consistently linking up with the attackers centrally. That will affect anyone playing in that AM/No10 role. When we're at our worst in that regard, Rooney is a better option than Kagawa: He is more used to it, for one - and much more of an offensive threat in his own right. I don't think it's a physical problem - it's not that Kagawa is doomed to be knocked off the ball/bullied by stronger opponents, etc. That might be a factor against some teams, but not to a significant degree - if the cohesion is there, it shouldn't limit Kagawa dramatically.
 
So Kagawa played a whole 30 minutes in the no.10 position and didn't impress. Gaspety-gasp-gasp!

I see some people jumping the gun and using this game as an argument for Kagawa not having a future as a no.10 in PL. To those people I have to ask the following: did you not watch us play last season, with pretty much the exact same players? In the last third of last season, Kagawa played roughly 70 minutes as a no.10, against 3 different PL sides. During those minutes, he was amongst the best(if not the best) players on the field, scoring 2 goals, making 2 assists, and creating a bunch of chances and nice play. If you made a youtube compilation of out only those minutes and asked a random person who knows nothing about Kagawa to compare that video to the average Rooney performance, then he'd laugh in your face and say that he'd pick Kagawa for the no.10 position any day of the week.

Now, 70 minutes against 3 PL opponents are not a lot of games to base your opinion on, and you'd be foolish to think that this alone is evidence that Kagawa is a master in the no.10 position. My point is just that today's performance against Tottenham was the exception. Not the norm. Kagawa has(since the Norwich game) played brilliantly in the no.10 position in the PL up until today. It is therefore pointless to single this performance out as the "standard".

As I mentioned earlier, I think today's performance is one of Kagawa's worst. Maybe even the worst. But was he any worse than Cleverley, Jones, Evra, or even Welbeck? I don't think so. And if he was, then it's by a tiny, tiny margin. No, today was a collective failure. There's no point trying to find a scapegoat, when only Rooney and Valencia did well(amongst our midfielders and attackers).

The bottom line is that Kagawa needs much more time. Moyes needs to trust him more, instead of pushing him out to the left wing or take him off the field whenever he's not performing as good as you'd want. Kagawa has shown glimpses of brilliance and done moves Rooney can only dream of doing in his wildest dreams. It's about time Kagawa also gets to finish a couple of games in his best position, even when he's not playing well.

Give him a nice run. If he fails, then so be it. Sell him and try something new.
 
Mad Winger said:
So Kagawa played a whole 30 minutes in the no.10 position and didn't impress. Gaspety-gasp-gasp!

I see some people jumping the gun and using this game as an argument for Kagawa not having a future as a no.10 in PL. To those people I have to ask the following: did you not watch us play last season, with pretty much the exact same players? In the last third of last season, Kagawa played roughly 70 minutes as a no.10, against 3 different PL sides. During those minutes, he was amongst the best(if not the best) players on the field, scoring 2 goals, making 2 assists, and creating a bunch of chances and nice play. If you made a youtube compilation of out only those minutes and asked a random person who knows nothing about Kagawa to compare that video to the average Rooney performance, then he'd laugh in your face and say that he'd pick Kagawa for the no.10 position any day of the week.

Now, 70 minutes against 3 PL opponents are not a lot of games to base your opinion on, and you'd be foolish to think that this alone is evidence that Kagawa is a master in the no.10 position. My point is just that today's performance against Tottenham was the exception. Not the norm. Kagawa has(since the Norwich game) played brilliantly in the no.10 position in the PL up until today. It is therefore pointless to single this performance out as the "standard".

As I mentioned earlier, I think today's performance is one of Kagawa's worst. Maybe even the worst. But was he any worse than Cleverley, Jones, Evra, or even Welbeck? I don't think so. And if he was, then it's by a tiny, tiny margin. No, today was a collective failure. There's no point trying to find a scapegoat, when only Rooney and Valencia did well(amongst our midfielders and attackers).

The bottom line is that Kagawa needs much more time. Moyes needs to trust him more, instead of pushing him out to the left wing or take him off the field whenever he's not performing as good as you'd want. Kagawa has shown glimpses of brilliance and done moves Rooney can only dream of doing in his wildest dreams. It's about time Kagawa also gets to finish a couple of games in his best position, even when he's not playing well.

Give him a nice run. If he fails, then so be it. Sell him and try something new.
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Easy now, boy - easy. You were doing rather well there - and then it got a bit out of hand again. It's alright, though - you're right. He wasn't horrible, just a bit off the boil. And there is no doubt whatsoever that he should be given more chances in the role - in the league. We just need to be a bit better behind whoever occupies that role - it would make all the difference.
 
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