Shinji Kagawa

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Sadly, I can see Moyes prefering Fellaini in that no.10 position ahead of Kagawa.

I''m a huge fan of Kagawa, but he deserves a team with more technical ability and fluidity, not having to feed off Ashley Young and Antonio 'one legged' Valencia..thats if he's even selected to play.
 
The Kagawa situation makes me want to cry.

I think tomorrow I might refuse to marry an Arab model who is also an Arab princess, and marry one of the Dee's from Benefit Street, just to feel how Shinji must

(No offence Dee's)
 
Play we'll, get dropped the next match. Say to Nani that he needs game time to improve his confidence, and drop him next match. What the hell kind of mind-games are Moyes deploying onto his own players - it's madness and it isn't working.
 
Suspect he's done here personally. Unless there's a change of manager anyway.
 
Arsenal, City, Chelsea, Everton and Spurs have conceded less than us so I don't think you can call that defensive. Choosing Januzaj over Kagawa is not a defensive move, the fact we conceded twice against WBA after bringing Januzaj on supports that. It's just personal preference. I would personally play them both, but it is understandable to choose to maximise the effectiveness of the best player available to you. Januzaj can play out wide but he does get more involved as a #10 and that was shown today. If Welbeck finished an easy chance/hadn't gotten fouled and Evra got even a half decent cross in we could have been 2-1 up in that first half. In the second he was much quieter. Choosing to bring on Hernandez instead of Kagawa isn't defensive either. Januzaj has earned that privilege to be the key man in attack, Kagawa hasn't.
 
Januzaj on the left and Kagawa in center if the park worked fine vs Swansea why Moyes changed it today I will never know, we looked clueless in the first half vs Swansea with Januzaj in the hole like Moyes did today....
 
Brwned said:
Arsenal, City, Chelsea, Everton and Spurs have conceded less than us so I don't think you can call that defensive.
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Just because there are teams that have conceded less, it doesn't mean that our style isn't defensive. In fact, this is one area where I don't want to criticize Moyes. In terms of putting out formations and tactics to prevent us from conceding goals, I don't think he could have done much more. Many of the goals we have conceded are results of bad defending and individual errors that the players have to take pretty much all the blame for.


Brwned said:
Choosing Januzaj over Kagawa is not a defensive move, the fact we conceded twice against WBA after bringing Januzaj on supports that. It's just personal preference.
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It's not a defensive move in itself, but you have to look at what it represented. We were playing our best attacking football of the season, but we were also a bit more open than usual(hence WBA creating a couple of decent chances themselves). Very few managers in the world would have made that sub, seeing as we were clearly the superior team and incredibly unlucky to not be in the lead. But Moyes didn't like what he saw, so he chose to take off the best player of the half(only really challenged by Nani). Though Januzaj isn't a defensive sub, taking off the player who was very much pulling the strings offensively, is a defensive move. Moyes also clearly instructed the players to sit back a bit more. That's why we conceded the goals. Not because we kept attacking like in the first half.

Attacking can be the best sort of defense. When we started to close the gaps defensively, we completely lost the initiative. And thus, we lost the game. Up until that game, we had been incredibly solid defensively(apart from the City game), but clueless offensively. The very moment we started looking fluid and adventurous, Moyes changed our gameplan and took out the player who was leading the attacks. If that's not the sign of a defensive coach, then I don't know what is.


Brwned said:
Januzaj can play out wide but he does get more involved as a #10 and that was shown today. If Welbeck finished an easy chance/hadn't gotten fouled and Evra got even a half decent cross in we could have been 2-1 up in that first half. In the second he was much quieter. Choosing to bring on Hernandez instead of Kagawa isn't defensive either. Januzaj has earned that privilege to be the key man in attack, Kagawa hasn't.
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I love Januzaj and I think he's been one of our best players this season, but he's obviously much better on the wing than he is in the AM position. Almost all his best moments today came from the left. He wasn't all over at the sideline, but he was far enough out to look like a winger that cuts in, rather than an AM. Putting Januzaj ahead of Kagawa in the AM position is just stupid. Let Kagawa play there and put Januzaj on the wing. It's much better, as we saw against Swansea.

I don't understand the idea that being the "key man in attack" is some sort of holy privelege? You play where your skillset is suited. Januzaj offers more from the wing because he's an excellent dribbler with good speed. Kagawa plays behind the striker because he's an offensive playmaker who's more useful at the center of things.

Including Januzaj today wasn't defensive by Moyes. Excluding Kagawa was. Why couldn't he just have chosen both? We could play with both Kagawa and Januzaj, while still having a typical winger on one of the flanks. The Hernandez sub was hardly a brave one, seeing as we were already 3-0 down with 35 minutes to go...
 
Kagawa had a good game 2nd half against Swansea, but he was once again anonymous in the first half when we actually needed him to be creative. Yes, he looked better for the switch, but he was responding to the outstanding Januzaj who, despite being 18 years old has shown in abundance that if Kagawa had the bollocks to match his talent he could actually play for United.

Kagawa today would not have provided creativity, I doubt he'd have got on the ball anywhere near enough to do that, he has throughout his United career struggled in games where the team hasn't played well, he has struggled, even in his best games, to impose himself on physical games when he doesn't get the time and space; he has struggled in big games in general, and Chelsea's team, predictably, included a midfield who were intent on shutting anything down rather than creating.

Although I am no fan of Ashley Young, at least whilst creating nothing he will also run a bit. Moyes, understandably, thought this was not the game for Kagawa. There has been absolutely no evidence whatsoever to suggest that that is an incorrect observation.
 
Ash_G said:
Didn't get his exclusion at all today. Yes he hasn't been good but he's been no worse than Valencia/Young, and unlike them he largely hasn't played his position, certainly not as consistently as they have. And unlike them he could actually facilitate us getting more out of those around him. We finally have a player, playing as a united attacker should in Januzaj and instead of combining him with a player who could play on the same wavelength as him we drop that player and play him right up the pitch where he's out of the action.

Kagawa as an a/m could give someone like Carrick a player who will offer a short option and let us play faster through the middle by giving an option, he can also make use of Januzaj's runs, as Januzaj can make use of knowing that there's someone who will see his run and be able to pick him out likewise Welbeck. We can still use one of the wide players for constant width, but leaving him out today and lining up as we did, imo, just hindered the three good players we actually have available atm, carrick, januzaj and Weleck.

People can talk about defensive frailties but Kagawa is a hard worker and as a spare man defensively can be useful. It's different where he has a set man to mark as on the left, but as the third midfielder he can nip it and help close down rather than have to actually track someone. And additionally, he can help keep the ball better and use it better when we have it.
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yep spot on once again ash.
 
NinjaFletch said:
Kagawa had a good game 2nd half against Swansea, but he was once again anonymous in the first half when we actually needed him to be creative. Yes, he looked better for the switch, but he was responding to the outstanding Januzaj who, despite being 18 years old has shown in abundance that if Kagawa had the bollocks to match his talent he could actually play for United.

Kagawa today would not have provided creativity, I doubt he'd have got on the ball anywhere near enough to do that, he has throughout his United career struggled in games where the team hasn't played well, he has struggled, even in his best games, to impose himself on physical games when he doesn't get the time and space; he has struggled in big games in general, and Chelsea's team, predictably, included a midfield who were intent on shutting anything down rather than creating.

Although I am no fan of Ashley Young, at least whilst creating nothing he will also run a bit. Moyes, understandably, thought this was not the game for Kagawa. There has been absolutely no evidence whatsoever to suggest that that is an incorrect observation.
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lol you're just making assumptions. you first say he was responding to the "outstanding januzaj" that reads as biased. plus i'm not sure what exactly that even means. yes januzaj was great but that doesnt mean kagawa was responding more to januzaj than adding his own contribution. i mean how do you even determine that? then you say he would not have provided creativity....and how do we know this? football is a game filled with unknowns. that's what so intriguing about watching players from game to game. imo, the majority of the time, there's the possibility they can put in a performance that you didn quite expect (in a positive sense).

i get it, you dont think kagawa was suited for the situation but the substance you provide doesnt really add up for me. the important aspect of kagawa's second half performance isn't just that he was playing in his favored position. it also had to do with what that allowed him to do that is harder for him to on the left in our setup. I dont think Januzaj was responsible for Kagawa choosing to form a defensive 3 with carrick and fletcher when swansea were on the ball to try and force swansea's play wide. Nor do i think he was responsible for kagawa choosing to drop deep to give carrick and fletcher an option through the middle. Kagawa has been overall disappointing this season. but when i look at the likes of valencia and how he gets a run of games despite being inconsistent, it makes me wonder about some of our other players who i think deserve at least some leeway.

it's not too different for young. he plays in a game just coming back from injury, no surprise to see he's not quite sharp yet as always we have the expectation if they're out there they need to perform. now we're in a situation where if kagawa plays in the next game, he's not building on his performance against swansea, so it's like he's got to start again.i wouldn be surprised if people criticise him for not taking his chance if it doesnt go well. that's a fair opinion but i wouldn say that's the complete story either. i would think at this stage, it's important to try and build on a player's confidence when it already seems lower than usual by showing some faith in him.

your last sentence sums it up for me though...you've seemingly made up your mind without really considering other observations which show some credence to kagawa being selected.
 
He'd have been eased off the ball by Chelsea's midfield. He doesn't (yet) have the strength on the ball to be effective in a game like that.
 
All I can think of is that he would have been ruffled by Luiz and Ramirez in the middle. That is the only reasoning that comes in my mind right now wrt dropping him.
 
lynchie said:
He'd have been eased off the ball by Chelsea's midfield. He doesn't (yet) have the strength on the ball to be effective in a game like that.
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This! If we could replay the game later today I would still have not backed him to play.I like the guy and I still think he has a future with us, but the team needed to try and match Chelsea's physical strength and Shinji would have been bullied in out there against Luiz and co!
 
coolredwine said:
All I can think of is that he would have been ruffled by Luiz and Ramirez in the middle. That is the only reasoning that comes in my mind right now wrt dropping him.
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it's a fair point but i think from a defensive aspect, he suits us better in that position then he does on the left. because he's not a player who usually gets stuck in, he isn't drawn out of position as much and can be very disciplined in the no 10 role as he has shown in other games. I saw the logic in playing adnan at 10 but we still faced I thought the same issues with creating through the middle. Not enough support from midfield. Not enough support from the wings.

Adnan was more active in the wider areas and that's where we saw him break down chelsea the most. Which provides the suggestion, perhaps he could have started on the wing. I know people will point to his defensive inconsistencies but it doesnt help acting like those same defensive inconsistencies wont cost us. It's a team game. If there's a weakness to be exploited whether on the wing or through the middle, teams will try to find that and continually exploit it.

I think what we had in adnan on the wing and kagawa in midfield wouldn have been a bad bet especially on previous form. But now it looks like it'll be an uphill battle to find our form again.
 
lynchie said:
He'd have been eased off the ball by Chelsea's midfield. He doesn't (yet) have the strength on the ball to be effective in a game like that.
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So we play Valencia and Young instead of him who do their best to ensure that we create feck all
 
I meant to ask this question after the Swansea league game. Both Fletch and Moyes referred to him as 'Sinji' rather than 'Shin-ji'. Is that how it's pronounced or is it just their uncultured Scottish ways?
 
Decotron said:
That chap is so far up Kagawa arse its unreal.

Its getting to the point where if Kagawa doesnt finish his breakfast someone will pop up and say "if we just move his breakfast into a more central area he'll finish it".

He hasnt shown nearly enough for us. End of story
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He's clearly a good touch player, great vision and he is a decent passer of the ball, but he doesn't really show enough endeavour to go with the skills. A lot of players are very good when they are allowed time on the ball, the very best ones adapt to being pressured.. Kagawa, while still young- isn't really offering much to say he's anything better than a decent second striker/ attacking midfielder.
 
Januzaj's best work came invariable when he pulled out left against Chelsea, much like in the match against Swansea. Kagawa's also been making strides, even with his VERY limited gameplay lately. Kagawa does well in terms of not slacking defensively as well, for a player of his ilk.

Kagawa may well have made more of an impact last Sunday than some of you'd think.
 
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Drainy said:
He's clearly a good touch player, great vision and he is a decent passer of the ball, but he doesn't really show enough endeavour to go with the skills. A lot of players are very good when they are allowed time on the ball, the very best ones adapt to being pressured.. Kagawa, while still young- isn't really offering much to say he's anything better than a decent second striker/ attacking midfielder.
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Perhaps, but he sure as hell's better than Ashley Young. Anywhere.
 
To be fair to Kagawa, he generally has been very good for us in the middle.
 
I think he's been awful out wide - he's clearly not comfortable in wide positions in attack - and defensively he tucks in and leaves Evra more isolated (and doesn't have the recovery pace to help him out). He's been a mixed bag in the centre, he plays well when the team is in the ascendency but can be a luxury otherwise. Not knocking his talent, just he doesn't suit the team at this current time.
 
Eugenius said:
I think he's been awful out wide - he's clearly not comfortable in wide positions in attack - and defensively he tucks in and leaves Evra more isolated (and doesn't have the recovery pace to help him out). He's been a mixed bag in the centre, he plays well when the team is in the ascendency but can be a luxury otherwise. Not knocking his talent, just he doesn't suit the team at this current time.
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Out wide I'd say he's been miles better then what young or Valencia have been,a part from the 2 games where young looked half decent. Kagawa at least keeps the ball and tries to pick players out with crosses, even though he's nothing special out there. Young cuts in and then over hits the cross or hits the first man every time, never looking for a player, and Valencia just hits it out for a corner every time. I'd much rather a player always look to pick somebody out, and keep the ball rather then just kick it out every time and hand the ball to the opposition. Might not be particularly exciting but it's a lot more beneficial.
 
Eugenius said:
I think he's been awful out wide - he's clearly not comfortable in wide positions in attack - and defensively he tucks in and leaves Evra more isolated (and doesn't have the recovery pace to help him out). He's been a mixed bag in the centre, he plays well when the team is in the ascendency but can be a luxury otherwise. Not knocking his talent, just he doesn't suit the team at this current time.
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Not sure where this is coming from. He usually does a good job cutting off passing lanes on the left. only times i've noticed he leaves evra isolated is when he drifts across the pitch when we're in attack. Even though he doesnt play alot his defensive contributions have been pretty decent. He's not a player who regularly gets stuck in but he will put in tackles on occasion. He's one of those players who cuts off passing lanes defensively rather than trying to nick the ball off you.
 
Gladiator said:
are you sure about the first one? pretty sure had more than 2. Didn he have around 8 in his first season?
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Yeah he did in his first season, youngs in his 3rd season here though. He had 0 last season and Valencia had 1 goal last season :lol:
Kagawa had 6, despite being in and out of the team. This season he's been really short of confidence as well because he's always been a pretty good goalscorer.
 
acnumber9 said:
I thought we were taking about this season. Some assists would be nice too.
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My point was that you saying the others offer goals isn't really that valid because they don't really. Valencia has scored a few this season but they've all been tap ins, and has played more games then anyone else in our team other then De Gea so you'd expect him to get at least a few, no matter how bad he's been. Kagawa when he gets games and some confidence would get goals and assists. Every time he plays in the middle he makes some great chances and gets himself in good chances, he's just been a bit unlucky and didn't have the confidence to finish like he used to. Against Swansea alone, with a bit of confidence, he would've had 2 goals and an assist if Smalling could score from 2 yards out on an open net.
Anyways, he's a far better and smarter player then Valencia and Young are, and with a run of games like the others have gotten and some confidence he'd easily add goals and assists. He got a decent amount last season despite not featuring that regularly either, and from the wing mostly when he did.
 
bosnian_red said:
My point was that you saying the others offer goals isn't really that valid because they don't really. Valencia has scored a few this season but they've all been tap ins, and has played more games then anyone else in our team other then De Gea so you'd expect him to get at least a few, no matter how bad he's been. Kagawa when he gets games and some confidence would get goals and assists. Every time he plays in the middle he makes some great chances and gets himself in good chances, he's just been a bit unlucky and didn't have the confidence to finish like he used to. Against Swansea alone, with a bit of confidence, he would've had 2 goals and an assist if Smalling could score from 2 yards out on an open net.
Anyways, he's a far better and smarter player then Valencia and Young are, and with a run of games like the others have gotten and some confidence he'd easily add goals and assists. He got a decent amount last season despite not featuring that regularly either, and from the wing mostly when he did.
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We're talking about their performances out wide. It makes sense to actually compare under that specification rather than talking about playing in the middle. You also don't help your argument when you attempt to denigrate goals scored by Valencia based where he scored them from. If it's as simple as that then it should be easy for a player of Kagawa's immense ability to achieve likewise from wide. If Young and Valencia had confidence they could have more goals too. It's better to stay away from hypotheticals when discussing reality. It would be nice if more of our players could get such support from our fans.
 
Twigginater said:
Not so sure about that. This season Ashley Young has probably done better.
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Ashley Young has been the worst performer in the entire squad by a country mile as far as I'm concerned. People forget just how bad he was in September and October. The City game was possibly the worst I've ever seen from a United player - I don't think he completed a forward pass. He didn't get a league game for two months because of it. He struck the ball quite nicely the other week, twice, but he's been atrocious nonetheless.
 
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