Yeah, can't believe how shit that cross was to Smalling, who missed from one yard. He's set up quite a few, not his fault when someone can't put it away.
He hasn't had a decent run of games in his position. If he does, he'll be fine.
Shinji Kagawa
- Thread starter Baby Faced Assassin
- Start date
-
In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik (@Rood) is joined by CEO Duncan Drasdo and Financial Director Andy Green from the Manchester United Supporters Trust for a special episode on all things behind the scenes at Old Trafford including a brief history of MUST and their aims today, views on INEOS and Sir Jim Ratcliffe so far, and the Old Trafford regeneration.
- Status
Yeah, can't believe how shit that cross was to Smalling, who missed from one yard. He's set up quite a few, not his fault when someone can't put it away.
He hasn't had a decent run of games in his position. If he does, he'll be fine.
These are the goals/assist ratio of our wingers in the 2012-2013 season. I've only bothered to use the PL and the CL as my basis, since this is the highest level and most of our best players have gotten playtime there.
1. Kagawa: one goal/assist every 121 minutes.
2. Nani: one goal/assist every 162 minutes.
3. Welbeck: one goal/assist every 268 minutes.
4. Young: one goal/assist every 279 minutes.
5. Valencia: one goal/assist every 369 minutes(
)
Additional information:
- Only three players did better than Kagawa. They are the following: Hernandez, RVP, Rooney(in that order).
- Evra's goal/assist ratio in the PL/CL is 297 minutes. That's way better than Valencia, and almost as good as Young
__________________________
Stats aren't everything, and this is only last season. But it goes to show that Kagawa is our best winger if he's given playtime and trust. You might argue that it's unfair, seeing as Kagawa plays in behind the striker occassionally, which should make it easier to score/assist. But I will then counter with the fact that playing on the wing isn't Kagawa's natural position. So it ought to be harder for him when he plays there(which he did most of the time).
Regardless of this season, this ought to be the pecking order for the two wings:
1. Kagawa/Januzaj
2. Kagawa/Januzaj
3. Valencia
4. Nani
5. Welbeck
6. Young
Kagawa should therefore start most of the time, even when Rooney and RVP are fit. And if one of them is out, he should be placed in the AM position immediately. That's what Fergie would have done. Nay, that's what any sensible manager would have done.
1. Kagawa: one goal/assist every 121 minutes.
2. Nani: one goal/assist every 162 minutes.
3. Welbeck: one goal/assist every 268 minutes.
4. Young: one goal/assist every 279 minutes.
5. Valencia: one goal/assist every 369 minutes(
)Additional information:
- Only three players did better than Kagawa. They are the following: Hernandez, RVP, Rooney(in that order).
- Evra's goal/assist ratio in the PL/CL is 297 minutes. That's way better than Valencia, and almost as good as Young
__________________________
Stats aren't everything, and this is only last season. But it goes to show that Kagawa is our best winger if he's given playtime and trust. You might argue that it's unfair, seeing as Kagawa plays in behind the striker occassionally, which should make it easier to score/assist. But I will then counter with the fact that playing on the wing isn't Kagawa's natural position. So it ought to be harder for him when he plays there(which he did most of the time).
Regardless of this season, this ought to be the pecking order for the two wings:
1. Kagawa/Januzaj
2. Kagawa/Januzaj
3. Valencia
4. Nani
5. Welbeck
6. Young
Kagawa should therefore start most of the time, even when Rooney and RVP are fit. And if one of them is out, he should be placed in the AM position immediately. That's what Fergie would have done. Nay, that's what any sensible manager would have done.
That same thing applies to all players. It doesn't stop stats being used against the other when it suits. He may be better than he has been out wide. Whether he'd be better than Rooney or even as close to as good as some here think is a different. It's irrelevant in a discussion about his performances out wide though.
Why not use this season?These are the goals/assist ratio of our wingers in the 2012-2013 season. I've only bothered to use the PL and the CL as my basis, since this is the highest level and most of our best players have gotten playtime there.
1. Kagawa: one goal/assist every 121 minutes.
2. Nani: one goal/assist every 162 minutes.
3. Welbeck: one goal/assist every 268 minutes.
4. Young: one goal/assist every 279 minutes.
5. Valencia: one goal/assist every 369 minutes(
Additional information:
- Only three players did better than Kagawa. They are the following: Hernandez, RVP, Rooney(in that order).
- Evra's goal/assist ratio in the PL/CL is 297 minutes. That's way better than Valencia, and almost as good as Young
__________________________
Stats aren't everything, and this is only last season. But it goes to show that Kagawa is our best winger if he's given playtime and trust. You might argue that it's unfair, seeing as Kagawa plays in behind the striker occassionally, which should make it easier to score/assist. But I will then counter with the fact that playing on the wing isn't Kagawa's natural position. So it ought to be harder for him when he plays there(which he did most of the time).
Regardless of this season, this ought to be the pecking order for the two wings:
1. Kagawa/Januzaj
2. Kagawa/Januzaj
3. Valencia
4. Nani
5. Welbeck
6. Young
Kagawa should therefore start most of the time, even when Rooney and RVP are fit. And if one of them is out, he should be placed in the AM position immediately. That's what Fergie would have done. Nay, that's what any sensible manager would have done.
I know where you're coming from, but you're making it sound like Kagawa has been shit every time he's played and that Valencia and Young are getting some great stats. This season they've all been pretty shite productivity wise, Valencia only being half decent though with 4 goals and 3 assists in 25 appearances. Last season he had 1 goal and 6 assists in all comps. This for a player who plays week in, week out, is pretty awful. Young on the other hand has 2 goals and 1 assist in 18 appearances, and last season had 0 goals and 3 assists. Kagawa's has made 17 appearances including subs and doesn't have anything to show for it of course, but has been in and out of the side and never had a run of games like the other 2 have. Last season he had 6 goals and 5 assists in 26 appearances according to soccernet as well, when he actually had some confidence from Sir Alex.
I'm not trying to say he's been great, because he's been average at best overall. He's not made any great impact, but that is still better then the shit that Valencia and Young have served up. Even if you ignore everything else, Kagawa at the very least offers us more possession on the ball, a technically superior player who will play the smart pass and in the odd chance that we actually start playing quickly, he will come to life and make things happen. He's not somebody who will lump the ball into the box at every opportunity like Young and Valencia (they don't know how to do anything else to be fair).
It doesn't matter if he'd be better than Rooney. Rooney hasn't been playing and neither has RVP. Rooney can certainly play in front of Kagawa when healthy. Considering the number of games RVP and Rooney have played together, you're point is fairly irrelevant.
And it's ridiculous to discuss him out wide. All our wide players are shit. Kagawa can't be any worse.
Because Valencia has played more then any other outfield player and has been first choice despite being shit, Young has had a run of games to get something and in ONE game, he scored 1 goal and got an assist, and scored in the next game. Kagawa, who I don't think has played 3 games in a row this season, doesn't have any direct assists but has made the pass before a goal quite a few times and had the odd game where he's been better then Young or Valencia have ever been in the last 2 years. Kagawa has also shown in the past that he's a much better goalscorer then Valencia. One half season in which he's barely played doesn't change that.
And on a post a few up the page... Kagawa has set up plenty of chances this season only for them to be missed, like Smalling missing a tap in against Swansea. Then he's had plenty of times where he did most of the work, or played the key pass before the assist. You say the same can be said for others, which is true, but Valencia and Young haven't exactly done that many times this season, or set any players up for tap ins very regularly now have they? Their wing play is just sprint down the wing and hit the ball as hard as you can into the box and hope somebody is there (Valencia) or in Young's case, it is just run, cut inside, then overhit the cross. Neither of them look to actually pick out players, like Kagawa does, even though he doesn't try to cross or shoot anywhere near as much as he should. At least he tries to keep the ball though and doesn't blindly put it in.
Last edited:
For two reasons:
1. Because Kagawa barely has featured this season, and never in many games in row. This has obviously knocked him out the nice rythm he had under Fergie.
2. We've been generally shit this season, so even if a certain player has done better now, it can very well mean that he's a part of the problem. Also, had Kagawa gotten the same amount of playtime as Valencia for instance, then you can bet his stats would have looked much better.
Had Kagawa gotten an equal amount of playtime and trust under Moyes but still underperformed, then I could see why he didn't deserve to be a sure starter on one of the wings. But this isn't the case at all.
I know Kagawa went about 500 minutes of football without creating a chance whereas Young got us through some very difficult games
Good for you for not watching the last game he played.
Not at all. Young and Valencia have shown some poor form. I'm just pointing out the vast difference in the way the players are judged. It isn't based on what happens on the pitch that's for sure.
He's right though. Before the 2nd half of the Swansea match it had been ages since he had actually created a goal scoring opportunity.
Yes. Over 500 minutes.
The only difficult game he's gotten us through was against Stoke in the capital one cup. Apart from that, he hasn't been that good. He had a decent at best run of form in December but then he got injured. It wasn't that great though. All of our wingers apart from Adnan have been decent at the very best of times, but on average shit. I'd simply prefer to give Kagawa a chance because he hasn't gotten a run of games like the others so he might provide something different, and if not, you know he'll keep the ball instead of crossing it into nobody at first opportunity.
What?
He got us through the Crystal Palace game, the Hull game (assist for the own goal winner) and like you say the Stoke game.
I think he's our second best winger on form this season. Kagawa has been awful.
Kagawa has started 12 games in the big two competitions in comparison to Young's 7. You're not using them because it would spoil the argument for you somewhat. Valencia has started 19 with 4 goals and 3 assists to Kagawa's zero. Not good enough but better than Kagawa.
Valencia, Nani and Kagawa have all been better than Young. Their all round games has actually resembled that of a United footballer here and there. Nani against Stoke aside, none have come anywhere close to the abominable games Young has had this season. Like I said, there was a reason he was frozen out of the team for over two months. He scored a good goal against Stoke and another good one against West Ham but his all round game has remained as pointless as ever.
He has been though. It's where he plays most of his football for us so what else are to discuss?
Kagawa hasn't been awful, he's been ineffective on the wing true, but he still keeps the ball, he just hasn't been confident enough/lacking in balls to take on players and make things happen. He's shown that he can though. Young in that little run in december was probably some of the best form he's ever shown for us ignoring the first few months of his career here. Which is pretty shit all things considered. He was decent, but everyone knew it wouldn't go on because he just isn't that good. You're right though that he's probably been our second best winger form wise. But that says that they've all been shite and he's had 2 pretty good games on the wing all season which is enough to give him that. Give Kagawa more chances, more game time and he's got the ability to improve and show a lot more then the others have shown. We just need to start playing quicker as a team and not try to lump it in the box at first opportunity, and recently we have been a tiny bit better in that regard.
The thing about Young is that he basically destroys the potential for good football. Kagawa hasn't affected games much at all, but you just know 9 times out 10 with Young that all the play around him is either going to be shit or non-existent.
I don't hate the guy like some on here, but just playing him is massively unambitious. He might put in one decent cross leading to a goal every now and then but it's not enough to justify almost literally everything else that happens when you play him.
Last edited:
Well, he's no Valencia.
Young has done more for us than Kagawa has.
Well, then let's play him because he's the best we've got!
Well if we're including his first season then possibly, as he scored an important goal against Blackburn that we all thought had wrapped up the league. In the time frame between Kagawa's arrival and now, Kagawa has looked the better footballer and had more good games. Young scoring two good goals has blinded a few people.
Ok 1 chance in 600.
I don't get the love in for Kagawa, say what you want about being played left, fair point but plenty of players put in a
shift in other positions are contribute more than Kagawa does.
He's too light weight for the league IMO and either not brave enough or simply not good enough.
That not to say he's not a good player, he clearly is, but he hasn't shown anything here, certainly not enough to support some of the suggestions you see about him.
Kagawa has one assist according to Transfermarkt. I think he assisted Valencia in one game, but I don't remember which.
At the end of the day, Young is playing in his favored position. Kagawa is not. You'd therefore expect Young to have better stats than Kagawa on the wing. But if we look at last season, we see that this is far from the case. Kagawa was more than twice as effective as Young then.
Also, it's not unfair to assume that Kagawa is more dependent on playtime than Young. In fact, I think it's rather evident that he is. Young, regardless of playtime, is roughly around the same mediocre level, with the odd good game. We've tried playing him consistently, but is just doesn't work. He lacks creativity and the necessary skills to pose a genuine threat to the opposition. With Kagawa on the other hand, you know he has what it takes to suddenly play that Hollywood through-ball or fool the opposition on the half-turn. His off-the-ball movement is also arguably the best in the team, only really challenged by Carrick(though he moves in a different way). Young offers nothing but pace and decent technique. On his day, he's a threat. Usually he's not. Even when given a lot of playtime.
Kagawa, when given a lot of playtime, is much better than Young. And the same applies to Valencia, Nani and Welbeck(when he's used on the wing). Solution: fecking play Kagawa. Tossing him out on the pitch occassionally and out of position most of the time, is not doing him or us any favors.
That's obvious because you've been spending all year shitting on his in this thread.
Those of us who want him to play believe he will give us more fluid football. Those who don't seem to enjoy Valencia and Young dispensing endless shit crosses to nowhere.
Kagawa has no assists that I recall. We're discussing their performances out wide. It's the only comparison we can make. Through the centre he's competing with players comfortably better than him. All players need game time. It's not unique to Kagawa nor is the lack of movement in the team despite what this thread would have you believe. Post this seasons stats and have a laugh.
It has nothing to with Valencia or Young, neither of them are good enough either.
It's also no an agenda against Kagawa, I was delighted when we signed him, I thought he was going to be a top signing but he's failing to make an impact here, pretty dramatically.
As for player young ahead of him, well Youngs hold up play is better, I haven't seen the stats but he doesn't seem to get caught in position anywhere near as much and offers about 4 times as much cover.
I'm basing my opinion on watching him for Utd, nothing else.
All that said I how he scores a hat trick tomorrow and never has another bad game. I just seriously doubt it.
I don't think Young is good at all but Kagawa hasn't really done anything. Of course he's the better footballer. But nice touches here and there isn't good enough. Needs to impose himself in games.
Your belief and reality don't match up. The reality with Kagawa is a player constantly disappearing in games.
I agree with you. I just find it a little weird how two nice goals a couple of weeks ago has seen Young's stock rise. I mean, our second best winger? No chance.
It's because at his best he is great to watch, and is very good on the ball. He's got the potential to play really well and has played really well a few times for us. It just hasn't come enough. IMO, his problem is that he doesn't have it in him to change the game on his own, and he doesn't play well in a slow, zombie-passing style that just crosses it in every time they get it like we do, but if the team plays with a quick, fluid tempo, like 99% of United fans want us to play, then he has shown he comes to life and puts in good performances every time we do that. Second half against Swansea is an example of that. First half was dead, no movement, every sitting on the ball and passing it slowly. The only way to do anything like that is to hit it to the wings and hope a cross falls to somebody. In the second half we played some great stuff because we upped the tempo, passed the ball around a lot quicker and because of that, Kagawa had a great game. Just like against Leverkusen, and a few other games. Unfortunately for him, we've largely played really shite the majority of the time. I'd prefer to play him more often in the hope that we as a team will continue to play quicker and be more fluid, and so he can perform better rather then play the same shite football and put Valencia and Young on the wings because they are more likely to make things happen (as in cross it) when we're playing slowly and there is no movement.
Course he isn't our 2nd best winger but he played well vs Stoke, played well vs West Ham and thought he was our most threatening attacker in that dull Norwich game. I think at that time on current form he was our 2nd best winger but obviously I don't think he's our 2nd best winger.
He's not good at playing shit, stand around football. He's a 10 and he needs to have players actually moving around him. We don't. If that's the kind of football you want, then by all means let's get rid of players like Kagawa.
Mad Winger is hilarious in this thread. ALways Redwood is trying his best to match him though.
Most insulting thing anyone has ever said about me.
You're response to Popper's post earned it.
- Status