top postNo it's just lazy criticism by people who can't see the wood for the trees.
Here are three heat maps that prove the argument is an outright lie.
First, the heat map of United under Moyes. Look at the concentration of heat on the right wing, the right winger has been getting chalk on his boots, staying as wide as possible and stretching the play.
Now compare it to Mata's heat map from the Fulham game. Notice that whilst he is nominally starting from the right, the heat signature shows him drifting in and in and in. There is less attempt to get beyond the left back and into a 'wingers posistion' behind the full back as there is to come back into midfield and play the ball.
Now compare this to Mesut Özil who no one is stupid enough to make the argument is playing 'wide right', notice the large concentration of heat, throughout the season, in almost the exact same areas that Mata operated in against Fulham.
And this is in a team whose primary tactic was to get the ball wide and cross it yet Juan Mata, nominally playing from the right, was doing the exact opposite of playing like that. Mata who, lets be honest, you're arguing was a 'right winger' made 11 crosses. Rafael made just 1 less, Adnan Januzaj in 30 minutes made 1 more, and Rooney, Young and Evra comfortably outcrossed him. He also made an equal team high 5 key passes.
So, in a team performance based solely on the tactic of crossing the ball and stretching the play the picture is clear. Mata did not make genuine attempts to get to the byline, he did not cross the ball as much as two players who were clearly playing as wingers (Januzaj and Young) he crossed the ball less than 1 of our full backs, and just once more than the other.
The irony is, that a playmaker playing off one of the flanks is a reasonably modern position, but its being slated as 'shoving Mata out wide' by people who presumably are also making the same argument that Moyes is a tactical dinosaur. Whilst I don't think Moyes deserves the defence it is very obvious that whilst Mata is playing games and we are not winning Moyes will be criticised for how he utilises him regardless of what he actually does.
In comparison, look at the heat map of a right winger in Valencia playing against Cardiff.
Clear differences.
EDIT: feck it MORE STATS.
United average positions vs Fulham
Do I even need to analyse this one or is it becoming obvious that its just an outright lie?
Juan Mata | 2013/14 Performances
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What if it'd have got us a win? Why does it have to lead us to a loss?
There's no reason why those 4 with Carrick and Fletcher sat behind them should be seen as 'throwing the game away'.
Work how, exactly? Buy Xavi, Iniesta or whoever and it won't work by magic. It will only work when we bring in a set of coaches that have the ability, creativity and flair to implement attacking football on to the training pitch, and then on to the Old Trafford one. Great players still need coaching and management.
Moyes is doing to Mata exactly what all of our rival supporters, and many of us, predicted. He's the best attacking midfielder we've got, we have to utilise him there and position Rooney elsewhere. Moyes won't do that, however, and I expect nothing about Mata's game to change. Sad, really.
We didn't bring him into the game enough tonight, same with Rooney and van Persie. Carrick and Cleverley were first and foremost there to protect the defence, the transition from defence to attack wasn't good enough.
Him, Rooney and RVP aren't working as he's being forced out of his preferred area to make room for the three. I think if Mata starts it's an either/or with RVP and Rooney who themselves don't seem to have much chemistry at the moment.
Fletch wasn't on the bench as far as I can tell. I don't think the response to heavy pressure with 20 minutes left away to 2nd in the table arsenal should ever be to tell an extra player to stop tracking back and be a 'fluid front 3', not vs arsenal when gibbs and sagna are bombing on always and your first choice RB has just come off injured... not to mention evra at LB
I was talking more about a starting line up, but I still think Januzaj should have been coming on for Valencia not Mata.
I am slightly worried he could be a really expensive flop. We don't look like developing a formation that he can play in yet.
This is the most we'll get from Mata. Same kind of performance. No better than what Kagawa has offered. Thats how I know its the system and not the players. Its literally pointless him being there.
just speaking in probabilities, we would likely be hurting ourselves in a game that we had no possession in and would ever have possession in, by telling one of the wide players to stop tracking their wing backs. We were playing away to Arsenal, our game plan was to stiffle them and hit on the break, like it usually is (under fergie). We defended great and could have nicked a result in a game most people on here said we were going to lose 5-0.
We played in such a way that we probably win this game 45%-50% of the time.
We need a new system and one of Rooney and RVP need to be sacrificed for a a pacy 'attacking' winger.
Fletch played a few days ago, the mans been very very ill and there was no chance he would start today. Hopefully it will come in time.
Yeah we could have lined out differently, but I thought we did well and I'm happy with how we lined out. Not many teams do well at Emirates, and we had opportunies to nick the game which would have been a terrific result
In fairness though Rooney was clearly playing in more of an a/m role today and so it's primarily his duty to bring in someone like Mata. Hopefully we see more of Rooney deeper as when he's on his game he can do that better. Would also help if both wingers could drift though.
Aye. I thought the performance was decent tonight, defensively as good as we've been. We didn't bring the front four into it enough, but I can forgive them as confidence is rock bottom. Something to build on.
We got fleeced by Chelsea and not because Mata isn't a quality player
Again, why would this happen? Am genuinely not getting you.
Man I agree but how depressing is this post
We're using a surgeon knife to cut steak, he'll get rusty pretty soon
No it's just lazy criticism by people who can't see the wood for the trees.
Here are three heat maps that prove the argument is an outright lie.
First, the heat map of United under Moyes. Look at the concentration of heat on the right wing, the right winger has been getting chalk on his boots, staying as wide as possible and stretching the play.
Now compare it to Mata's heat map from the Fulham game. Notice that whilst he is nominally starting from the right, the heat signature shows him drifting in and in and in. There is less attempt to get beyond the left back and into a 'wingers posistion' behind the full back as there is to come back into midfield and play the ball.
Now compare this to Mesut Özil who no one is stupid enough to make the argument is playing 'wide right', notice the large concentration of heat, throughout the season, in almost the exact same areas that Mata operated in against Fulham.
And this is in a team whose primary tactic was to get the ball wide and cross it yet Juan Mata, nominally playing from the right, was doing the exact opposite of playing like that. Mata who, lets be honest, you're arguing was a 'right winger' made 11 crosses. Rafael made just 1 less, Adnan Januzaj in 30 minutes made 1 more, and Rooney, Young and Evra comfortably outcrossed him. He also made an equal team high 5 key passes.
So, in a team performance based solely on the tactic of crossing the ball and stretching the play the picture is clear. Mata did not make genuine attempts to get to the byline, he did not cross the ball as much as two players who were clearly playing as wingers (Januzaj and Young) he crossed the ball less than 1 of our full backs, and just once more than the other.
The irony is, that a playmaker playing off one of the flanks is a reasonably modern position, but its being slated as 'shoving Mata out wide' by people who presumably are also making the same argument that Moyes is a tactical dinosaur. Whilst I don't think Moyes deserves the defence it is very obvious that whilst Mata is playing games and we are not winning Moyes will be criticised for how he utilises him regardless of what he actually does.
In comparison, look at the heat map of a right winger in Valencia playing against Cardiff.
Clear differences.
EDIT: feck it MORE STATS.
United average positions vs Fulham
Do I even need to analyse this one or is it becoming obvious that its just an outright lie?
Sorry, I just saw this post and laughed:
But yeah, good post.
oh sorry! I don't really know how to be any clearer on that point, maybe I'm getting mixed up and having 2 different convos.
my main point through all of this is we needed to play 4 flat midfielders today because arsenal will always have a lot of possession no matter what we do and we really need wide players to help contain them. People who were expected big changes in the second half to new attacking formations that we've never tried before, I just think that's an unrealistic expectation, and we were better served by doing what we did.
Yeah, sorry I don't really like those sort of things myself, but it was so blindingly obvious to me during the game that I had to do it, couldn't think of any other way to make the point.
I've never rated him on the left, it doesn't suit him at all. He doesn't want to go past the full-back and when he cuts in on his right foot he can't hurt teams as much. With RVP and Rooney not linking up at all I think it's time we gave Mata a chance in his best position.
It's an easy argument for people to use, just like he never tracks back or does much running off the ball. Then you show them the ground covered stat and he's up there at the top as well as most interceptions and tackles. Each to their own eh?
Anyone who thinks Mata is being asked to play wide for United needs their fecking head examined.
He was great in the first half. Such a classy player. Did seem to fade though.
He was great in the first half. Such a classy player. Did seem to fade though.
Think we need to try and get really pacy players around him. At the minute no ones making any sort of decent runs off the ball for him, and the only options seem to be Rooney and Van Persie with their backs to goal in to feet. I think Nani is the sort that could benefit from him if he could ever get fit
We'll never get the best out of him if we persist in using him as a winger.
Tough one really, I can understand why Moyes wouldn't want to bring Mata into the team and immediately shift Rooney from the number 10 spot to try and accommodate him. Given how much Rooney has given the club - and how well he's generally played this year - it would be a tad harsh. He hasn't signed a new contract yet either, so it wouldn't surprise me if that was in Moyes' mind.
I agree with you though, I dislike seeing him there as well. He clearly does have a license to drift though and throughout the game you'll see him picking it up in the middle, but generally you want him to be in those spaces all the time.
Aye, completely agree. Especially when he drifts centrally it really would be effective if he had pace breaking either side of him. His first touch and passing are so good that he really could hurt teams in those situations.
I don't think Moyes will get the best out of him anyway. Absolutely no chance.
Fixed.
His technical superiority to the rest of our side is clear for all to see. Only RVP comes close.
I can't see that either. Honestly a lot of the people still backing Moyes claim Fergie shouldn't have signed Van Persie and spent the money on a central midfielder. But the Mata signing makes even less sense if we are going down that road.
It's ridiculous that he didn't play in his favourite position and was miles better than Rooney and Robin and still he was the one who was subbed off, and what's more ridiculous it's that you could see that happening.
Hard to disagree with that - there were/are clearly bigger holes in the squad than attacking midfield. To be fair however there is a pretty strong possibility is that the two signings were unrelated, i.e. Moyes' decision to sign Mata doesn't mean he wont sign a central midfielder. Like Fergie's decision to sign Van Persie I think Moyes just saw the opportunity to sign Mata as too good to turn down. He'll still be aware of the issues in midfield IMO.
Moyes really needs to give him a go as a no.10.
Don't get me wrong, I don't disagree with the signing of Mata. He is an absolutely world class player and you can't really afford to turn your nose on players like that especially in our situation. Just not sure why we signed him if he is being used as just a winger as he doesn't even fit Moyes' mould of a winger. Also just highlighting the hypocrisy that some have with the criticism to sign Van Persie.
His first touch is outrageous, but overall a disappointing display.
I wish people would stop saying he must play rigidly behind the striker. The thought that playmakers or classic number tens must play behind the striker and nowhere else is just wrong. If Moyes' tactics are from the Jurassic, then this sort of thinking is from the Cretaceous.
Mata can play anywhere in an advanced position. If there is a problem with Mata playing on either the left or the right, then it is because of Moyes' tactics, not because of the player's inability to play there.
I wish people would stop saying he must play rigidly behind the striker. The thought that playmakers or classic number tens must play behind the striker and nowhere else is just wrong. If Moyes' tactics are from the Jurassic, then this sort of thinking is from the Cretaceous.
Mata can play anywhere in an advanced position. If there is a problem with Mata playing on either the left or the right, then it is because of Moyes' tactics, not because of the player's inability to play there.
Yeap
Agree although when you're the wide player, you're still generally a bit deeper then the #10 player and have to track back defensively, but as a 10 you can stay up field and be more focused for the counter attacks. He should start off in the middle and then be given a free role rather then have a free role from the wing IMO. I always view it like the #10 position is made for your best attacking player, who just needs to be given a free role to do his own thing rather then restricted in one way.
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