Marouane Fellaini | 2013/14 Performances

[RedRover]

Yes, I agree but the fact is he does have that price tag on him, not his fault but that's life. But when I look at him as a footballer, I can't see how he can take us to the next level.

How many players can take a club "to the next level"? Ronaldo, Messi, Bale maybe?

There certainly aren't any players costing less than £30 million who would.

Bizarre attitude to have. The best sides have players of different types and he offers us something more. Nobody here is suggesting that he's going to be the difference between winning a trophy and not - but he is better than what we have and improves the side.

He is not the answer to all our problems. Tell us something we don't know.

Some on here seem desperate for him to fail. Probably because he's a Moyes signing and because he was the only summer signing. Had a Fabregas or similar come in along side him I suspect he'd be criticised a lot less.

 

[IrishLegend]

Is this based on anything or just a hunch?

Don't know if you intended this but it deserves a ba-dom-tish!

 

[Keenst]

The weird thing is that such a performance shouldn't be a surprise. He was just as good, if not better at Everton. He's always been a good player but for some reason many people seem oblivious to that.

 

[devilish]

How many players can take a club "to the next level"? Ronaldo, Messi, Bale maybe?

There certainly aren't any players costing less than £30 million who would.

Bizarre attitude to have. The best sides have players of different types and he offers us something more. Nobody here is suggesting that he's going to be the difference between winning a trophy and not - but he is better than what we have and improves the side.

He is not the answer to all our problems. Tell us something we don't know.

Some on here seem desperate for him to fail. Probably because he's a Moyes signing and because he was the only summer signing. Had a Fabregas or similar come in along side him I suspect he'd be criticised a lot less.

The point is that a 27m quality midfielder shouldnt need fabregas to do great or not get criticized. Mata is also moyes signing and theres no such resistance to him.

This "he need quality midfielders alongside him to be great" argument kind of suggest how well people rate him. I guess even prunier would have done well alongside baresi, sammer and maldini in their prime

 

[Hal9000]

I think he'll get better for us as the season goes along and i think he'll have a lot of people eating their words next season. He was unlucky for the first half of the season, he's admitting that the intensity and quality of our training with these players took him by surprise, he was playing injured.. and then he suffered a back injury as well.

Since he's come back he's had some very good games, can tell he's still a bit rusty at times but he's certainly stepped up several levels of performances from those we saw before he got injured.

He's may not have the passing range and creativity, but neither did Keane. What i like about Fellani is that you'll see him popping up all over the pitch, he'll be back in our box defending one minute, and then waiting for a cross in the the opponents area the next.

 

[Kag]

Jesus, forget about the price tag. You will make yourself ill.

The transfer is over, Woodward and Moyes made an arse of it, we know how it played out. He's here now and he's looks like he's playing well. By all accounts we're buying midfielders in the Summer, so Fellaini isn't the answer, but like I stressed over the Summer, he can be part of the puzzle.

 

[devilish]

Jesus, forget about the price tag. You will make yourself ill.

The transfer is over, Woodward and Moyes made an arse of it, we know how it played out. He's here now and he's looks like he's playing well. By all accounts we're buying midfielders in the Summer, so Fellaini isn't the answer, but like I stressed over the Summer, he can be part of the puzzle.

That's my point. Fellaini was a panic buy, a player who should have never signed for us, at least not at that price. Now it's all about us working hard to fit him somehow not to look stupid

Many think I want him to fail. It's not the case. No united fan would like to see the club wasting 27m. However lets keep thing in context or we look like rawk. As Kendall said he's a jack of all trade master of none which makes it an issue in which role we can play him

 

[devilish]

I think he'll get better for us as the season goes along and i think he'll have a lot of people eating their words next season. He was unlucky for the first half of the season, he's admitting that the intensity and quality of our training with these players took him by surprise, he was playing injured.. and then he suffered a back injury as well.

Since he's come back he's had some very good games, can tell he's still a bit rusty at times but he's certainly stepped up several levels of performances from those we saw before he got injured.

He's may not have the passing range and creativity, but neither did Keane. What i like about Fellani is that you'll see him popping up all over the pitch, he'll be back in our box defending one minute, and then waiting for a cross in the the opponents area the next.

Keane was a world class dm and leader who singlehandedly kept the defensive part of a quality but ridiculously attacking minded midfield. Were really comparing Valencia with George best here

Box to box in a3 men cm may be Fellaini best position. There again is he fast enough to cover that role?

 

[Sandikan]

That's my point. Fellaini was a panic buy, a player who should have never signed for us, at least not at that price. Now it's all about us working hard to fit him somehow not to look stupid

Many think I want him to fail. It's not the case. No united fan would like to see the club wasting 27m. However lets keep thing in context or we look like rawk. As Kendall said he's a jack of all trade master of none which makes it an issue in which role we can play him

Was he a panic buy though? Moyes was after him from day 1, and it was the ludicrously optimistic attempt to get him and Baines for about £30m together that delayed it.

The other players we were after would be much apt to call panic attempts. Khedira for 35m or so?!

 

[KM]

He wasn't a panic buy. Moyes/Woody simply messed up the transfer.

 

[Kag]

Yup, Moyes wanted him long before we signed him. They just made an arse of it.

 

[devilish]

Was he a panic buy though? Moyes was after him from day 1, and it was the ludicrously optimistic attempt to get him and Baines for about £30m together that delayed it.

The other players we were after would be much apt to call panic attempts. Khedira for 35m or so?!

If it wasn't a panic buy why we didn't activated the minimum release clause? Why did we go for khedira? Surely no sane manager would play Fellaini - khedira- carrick

Even if moyes wanted from day 1 he didn't valued him more then 15-20m top. So spending 27m when we could have signed him/rated him for less makes him a panic buy

 

[Hal9000]

If it wasn't a panic buy why we didn't activated the minimum release clause? Why did we go for khedira? Surely no sane manager would play Fellaini - khedira- carrick

Even if moyes wanted from day 1 he didn't rated him more then 15-20m top. So spending 27m for him makes him a panic buy

Don't think he was a panic buy. I think we tried to get him, but we felt he was overpriced, so we moved on to other targets.. when we could not get them we went back for Fellani as he was the player he knew he could get and knew about.

 

[Kag]

If it wasn't a panic buy why we didn't activated the minimum release clause? Why did we go for khedira? Surely no sane manager would play Fellaini - khedira- carrick

Even if moyes wanted from day 1 he didn't valued him more then 15-20m top. So spending 27m when we could have signed him/rated him for less makes him a panic buy

This has been explained before, I think. Moyes wanted both Fellaini and Baines, yet he and Woodward decided that the only way to get both was to bid for both together. They felt that activating Fellaini's release clause would have given Everton enough money to ignore any future Baines offer altogether, as they would have already pocketed £23 million.

A totally shit ploy, but Moyes clearly wanted Fellaini at the club at an early stage.

 

[2 man midfield]

This has been explained before, I think. Moyes wanted both Fellaini and Baines, yet he and Woodward decided that the only way to get both was to bid for both together. They felt that activating Fellaini's release clause would have given Everton enough money to ignore any future Baines offer altogether, as they would have already pocketed £23 million.

A totally shit ploy, but Moyes clearly wanted Fellaini at the club at an early stage.

I can see the logic in what they were trying to do, but it shouldn't have taken longer than a month to figure out we weren't getting Baines. It should have become pretty obvious Everton were about to bend us over the longer it went on.

 

[Kag]

I can see the logic in what they were trying to do, but it shouldn't have taken longer than a month to figure out we weren't getting Baines. It should have become pretty obvious Everton were about to bend us over the longer it went on.

Ay, that's true. In theory it wasn't a bad idea. The bids were the problem, as well as Everton's valuations. As you say, we should have moved on from Baines quite quickly and allowed Fellaini the time to settle.

 

[wr8_utd]

Are not some of you going a bit OTT? Considering the standard of the opponent today and that another team might not have been so wasteful.

Liverpool, Arsenal and Chelsea haven't won at this ground.

 

[RedRover]

The point is that a 27m quality midfielder shouldnt need fabregas to do great or not get criticized. Mata is also moyes signing and theres no such resistance to him.

This "he need quality midfielders alongside him to be great" argument kind of suggest how well people rate him. I guess even prunier would have done well alongside baresi, sammer and maldini in their prime

I'm not saying that though am I so I'm not sure what relevance that has.

You also seem to be missing the point I as making - specifically that Fellaini has been made the "poster boy" for a dreadful summer transfer window by a lot of people. I can see that people wanted other, better players to come in and the fact that it didn't happen is disappointing. We needed more than Fellaini - but that isn't his fault.

Too many fans seemed keen to write him off before he'd had chance to get a decent run of games. He's unfashionable - big, awkward, physical and does the ugly work - as well as being an ex-Moyes player. Some of the things leveled at him have been unfair especially given the limited opportunity he's had to make an impact and a lot of it total rubbish - i.e. He's too immobile or cant pass.

He isn't Ronaldo, nor should anyone expect him to be, but for me he deserved credit for a good performance yesterday. I responded to thee previous poster who didnt want to give him any such credit - suggesting that he'd done nothing that Cleverley or Fletcher hadn't done before, or that he gives you nothing you couldn't get for much less money or from the youth team, which for me is total nonsense.

 

[kouroux]

That's my point. Fellaini was a panic buy, a player who should have never signed for us, at least not at that price. Now it's all about us working hard to fit him somehow not to look stupid

Many think I want him to fail. It's not the case. No united fan would like to see the club wasting 27m. However lets keep thing in context or we look like rawk. As Kendall said he's a jack of all trade master of none which makes it an issue in which role we can play him

I wish we'd stop saying this for good.

 

[SilentWitness]

There is one problem with him being a box to box CM, though. He lacks two essential things to make it at the top level in that role: a high class passing game (accuracy and range) and the ability to really shield the ball and carry it forward.

Eh...he can do both of those things. He just hasn't done it enough yet, but if he's tactically employed in that way (Moyes wanting him to be more expansive) i've no doubt he could. In the first few games he played at the club you could see he was making pretty expansive passes or attempting to do so. Due to not really doing it often at Everton (although in 2012/2013 he made some lovely passes that resulted in excellent chances) he wasn't always as accurate but the intent + ability was there and he can keep improving on it.

Saying that though...I doubt we will ever see the 'high class passing game' consistently during games since United have Mata to be the creative heart, and will most likely sign a playmaker to slot beside Fellaini, so he'll be used as a player to win the ball + tighten the whole team defensively which he does very well. He does make driving runs through the midfield though, and when he does, he's pretty much not going to lose the ball as everyone is too afraid to tackle him.

 

[Snipers Breath]

Obviously he's not going to be the solution to our midfield problems.

We need a quality partner beside him and a formation/style to get the most out of him.

There's no reason that he can't be more than a 'squaddie' though. The other top teams in England and around Europe will have regular starters who are at his level. You don't need a team of world class.

Is Henderson a level above? Will Joe Allen be (I saw you say he might replace Henderson) ?

He wouldn't get games at our club not because of his lack of quality, because i think at his best he is as good as Henderson, but for the fact the only position he could take up is Gerrards role, and that isn't happening.

Hendersons role allows him to thrive because of his mobility, and his ability to get behind the strikers, Allen in comparison doesn't really push on beyond the strikers, but his ability to press the ball high up the pitch is very good. Fellaini doesn't excel in any of these aspects in fact his lack of mobility at times is reminscent of Gerrards, the system we play doesn't allow for two players of those qualities in the same midfield.

He wouldn't be a starter for us, i think he would be used in much the same way Lucas is going to be when he comes back, as occasional option of the bench to sure up games, and the odd start here and there when Gerrard is unable to play.

 

[Snipers Breath]

It was just one and half season ago, when Brendon tried to flog him to Fulham for Dempsey and now he's suddenly the next Liverpool captain.

Liverpool fans.

Sturridge was the next defoe less than a year ago, a lot of things can change in a year as we all know.

 

[devilish]

I'm not saying that though am I'm so I'm not sure what relevance that has.

You also seem to be missing the point I as making - specifically that Fellaini has been made the "poster boy" for a dreadful summer transfer window by a lot of people. I can see that people wanted other, better players to come in and the fact that it didn't happen is disappointing. We needed more than Fellaini - but that isn't his fault.

Too many fans seemed keen to write him off before he'd had chance to get a decent run of games. He's unfashionable - big, awkward, physical and does the ugly work - as well as being an ex-Moyes player. Some of the things leveled at him have been unfair especially given the limited opportunity he's had to make an impact and a lot of it total rubbish - i.e. He's too immobile or cant pass.

He isn't Ronaldo, nor should anyone expect him to be, but for me he deserved credit for a good performance yesterday. I responded to thee previous poster who didnt want to give him any such credit - suggesting that he'd done nothing that Cleverley or Fletcher hadn't done before, or that he gives you nothing you couldn't get for much less money or from the youth team, which for me is total nonsense.

I kind of disagree.

If after last summer fun fare we signed a technically gifted CM or a quality DM I doubt anyone would have complained. The trouble with Fellaini is that CM has been screaming for quality and he's just not the player we need. As Kendall hinted this guy is a jack of all trades master of none. He's hardworking but his positioning/speed isnt that of a quality DM + his passing/technique isn't shit but he can hardly be rated a playmaker. Many also feel that he's the type of player (a dirty type of midfielder whose strengths are his physicality and aerial dominance) that SAF has avoided (and in certain way derided) for many years. The fear of us ending up playing the hoof ball is real especially considering how much we're relying on crosses.

He's certainly a better player then Cleverley and Ando. To be fair Id rate a fully fit Fletcher in his prime more then him.

Hopefully Moyes will prove me wrong and honestly I have half an idea on how to utilise Fellaini effectively. However as I said, he's certainly not what we needed in CM.

 

[devilish]

I wish we'd stop saying this for good.

Unfortunately we tend to fall in that trap. Just read how fans has ridiculously overrated the likes of Foster, OShea, Fortune and P Neville in the past. To be fair I have occasionally fell in that trap myself. I even compared young OShea to Thuram once.

 

[devilish]

This has been explained before, I think. Moyes wanted both Fellaini and Baines, yet he and Woodward decided that the only way to get both was to bid for both together. They felt that activating Fellaini's release clause would have given Everton enough money to ignore any future Baines offer altogether, as they would have already pocketed £23 million.

A totally shit ploy, but Moyes clearly wanted Fellaini at the club at an early stage.

If that's really the case then we're lead by a bunch of cretins.

The supporter in me prefer to believe he's a panic buy.

 

[Alock1]

He wouldn't get games at our club not because of his lack of quality, because i think at his best he is as good as Henderson, but for the fact the only position he could take up is Gerrards role, and that isn't happening.

Hendersons role allows him to thrive because of his mobility, and his ability to get behind the strikers, Allen in comparison doesn't really push on beyond the strikers, but his ability to press the ball high up the pitch is very good. Fellaini doesn't excel in any of these aspects in fact his lack of mobility at times is reminscent of Gerrards, the system we play doesn't allow for two players of those qualities in the same midfield.

He wouldn't be a starter for us, i think he would be used in much the same way Lucas is going to be when he comes back, as occasional option of the bench to sure up games, and the odd start here and there when Gerrard is unable to play.

Exactly.. which is my point.

It's not about having 11 world class players to make a top team. It's about having a system which suits the players and gets the best out of them.

Barney's point was that he wasn't good enough to be more than a squad player - I disagree. I think he's good enough to be a regular starter but not if he's utilized wrong.

 

[SilentWitness]

This thing about his mobility is poo as-well. From a quick Google search looking back at the last season he played in a CM role and it states;

"Fellaini’s athleticism is there for all to see; he is in the top 1% of midfielders in terms of energy and distance covered during matches. He has the 4th highest average distance run per game in the top flight, clocking up a whopping 6.65 miles per match. His notable marathon matches this season include 7.5 miles in the derby defeat and 7mile+ outings in the away games at Man City and Fulham".

I can't find anything on the game yesterday in terms of distance covered but i'm pretty sure he'd have been one of the top players in terms of it. When Rafael hit the bar he was sprinting in the box to try to get on the end of it (I actually think Januzaj was trying to pick him out instead of Rafael tbh).

I actually think some people just look at his size and then take it from there in terms of his 'mobility'. A bigger guy is obviously going to have a different running style in comparison to a smaller one, so it's going to look a bit weird and clumsy but it doesn't mean they're any less mobile.

 

[Skills]

If we aspire to be in the same conversation as the likes of Barcelona, Real and Bayern we will have to significantly upgrade our midfielders, and that includes upgrading on Fellaini.

We surely don't have to be concerned about that too much now though? Surely our immediate concern over the next 2 or so seasons is to get back into the top 4 and to solidify our position in the top 4. Then it's maybe to look at getting to Chelsea/City's current level, before we can start dreaming about becoming regular challengers for the Champions League at Bayern/Madrid/Barca's level.

He's 26 now, and I'd say he's good enough for a team challenging for the top 4 and maybe challenging for the league for the next 4-5 years. By the time we can realistically be concerned by winning the CL, he'd probably have automatically made the transition to a squad player due to his age etc.

 

[devilish]

We surely don't have to be concerned about that too much now though? Surely our immediate concern over the next 2 or so seasons is to get back into the top 4 and to solidify our position in the top 4. Then it's maybe to look at getting to Chelsea/City's current level, before we can start dreaming about becoming regular challengers for the Champions League at Bayern/Madrid/Barca's level.

He's 26 now, and I'd say he's good enough for a team challenging for the top 4 and maybe challenging for the league for the next 4-5 years. By the time we can realistically be concerned by winning the CL, he'd probably have automatically made the transition to a squad player due to his age etc.

Your argument is severly flawed since we were newly crowned EPL Champions when we bought Fellaini. We should have been able to attract the top players we need.

Also do you think we can afford 27m for a near future squad player?

 

[mufcwarm92]

He's not a 27 million pound player. But you can't continually judge him based on his price tag. He is starting to look like a very good option in midfield, his price tag is completely irrelevant to that fact.

 

[Keenst]

Your argument is severly flawed since we were newly crowned EPL Champions when we bought Fellaini. We should have been able to attract the top players we need.

Also do you think we can afford 27m for a near future squad player?

He could well start as a holding midfielder ahead of Carrick next season. Since when is he a cert to only be a squad player?

 

[Stack]

This thing about his mobility is poo as-well. From a quick Google search looking back at the last season he played in a CM role and it states;

"Fellaini’s athleticism is there for all to see; he is in the top 1% of midfielders in terms of energy and distance covered during matches. He has the 4th highest average distance run per game in the top flight, clocking up a whopping 6.65 miles per match. His notable marathon matches this season include 7.5 miles in the derby defeat and 7mile+ outings in the away games at Man City and Fulham".

I can't find anything on the game yesterday in terms of distance covered but i'm pretty sure he'd have been one of the top players in terms of it. When Rafael hit the bar he was sprinting in the box to try to get on the end of it (I actually think Januzaj was trying to pick him out instead of Rafael tbh).

I actually think some people just look at his size and then take it from there in terms of his 'mobility'. A bigger guy is obviously going to have a different running style in comparison to a smaller one, so it's going to look a bit weird and clumsy but it doesn't mean they're any less mobile.

Exactly. We dont need stats to see that he is a very mobile player. There are other "myths". The one about his 1st touch being similar to what you said about people looking at his size and making the determination that his 1st touch is average. He pulled off a number of quality 1st touch moves in the game. How he recieves the ball and his body shape in receiving are technically very good and his passing range is also better than he is given credit for. The weight on his passes is very nice as well, he often passes balls in to space for team mates to run on to and the weight of those passes make the football look seamless.

 

[devilish]

He could well start in as a holding midfielder ahead of Carrick next season . Since when is he a cert to only be a squad player?

I was answering to this post

He's 26 now, and I'd say he's good enough for a team challenging for the top 4 and maybe challenging for the league for the next 4-5 years. By the time we can realistically be concerned by winning the CL, he'd probably have automatically made the transition to a squad player due to his age etc.

When we signed Fellaini we were newly crowned EPL winners, having won the title comfortably. That year we were eliminated from the CL after the referee blundered against Real. So really the 'good enough to challenge for top 4' argument is flawed. Our aim were (and should be) higher then that.

 

[Stack]

He could well start in as a holding midfielder ahead of Carrick next season . Since when is he a cert to only be a squad player?

Why are people so restricted in their thinking to think he needs to have such a narrowly defined role as being just a holding midfielder?. Against WB there was a clear trigger for when he got forward and it was when the ball was fed to our wide players in the final third, every time that happened he made a beeline for the box. He covers a lot of ground during a game and can handle getting forward and also getting back as well.

 

[devilish]

Why are people so restricted in their thinking to think he needs to have such a narrowly defined role as being just a holding midfielder?. Against WB there was a clear trigger for when he got forward and it was when the ball was fed to our wide players in the final third, every time that happened he made a beeline for the box. He covers a lot of ground during a game and can handle getting forward and also getting back as well.

I agree he's more suited for a box to box role.

 

[Keenst]

Why are people so restricted in their thinking to think he needs to have such a narrowly defined role as being just a holding midfielder?. Against WB there was a clear trigger for when he got forward and it was when the ball was fed to our wide players in the final third, every time that happened he made a beeline for the box. He covers a lot of ground during a game and can handle getting forward and also getting back as well.

He could end up playing that role though if we're going to be signing more midfielders, I think he could be very effective there; or could end up playing a different role, who knows? All I'm saying is that there's a possibility he will be a regular in our side, not just a squad member.

 

[RedRover]

I kind of disagree.

If after last summer fun fare we signed a technically gifted CM or a quality DM I doubt anyone would have complained. The trouble with Fellaini is that CM has been screaming for quality and he's just not the player we need. As Kendall hinted this guy is a jack of all trades master of none. He's hardworking but his positioning/speed isnt that of a quality DM + his passing/technique isn't shit but he can hardly be rated a playmaker. Many also feel that he's the type of player (a dirty type of midfielder whose strengths are his physicality and aerial dominance) that SAF has avoided (and in certain way derided) for many years. The fear of us ending up playing the hoof ball is real especially considering how much we're relying on crosses.

He's certainly a better player then Cleverley and Ando. To be fair Id rate a fully fit Fletcher in his prime more then him.

Hopefully Moyes will prove me wrong and honestly I have half an idea on how to utilise Fellaini effectively. However as I said, he's certainly not what we needed in CM.

I agree that we needed more quality in midfield. I think anyone watching us last year and this would have to agree.

I also think that we lacked steel in midfield. The best sides have a player to sit in front of the back four when needed to break up play. For me we've lacked that for some time. The Olympiakos game was a great example - opposition waltzing through the middle whenever they liked at times. As good a player as Carrick is he isnt a combative presence so for me, its unfair to expect him to do that job. Half the time Rooney ended up tracking back to try and help them out.

As I said, Fellaini isn't the answer to all of our issues - no one player is in my opinion. But yesterday was a good example of what he might hopefully be able to bring to the team on a consistent basis - an awkward, physical presence in the middle of the park who can help out the back 4 and give the players in front a bit of a platform.

If he can get forward and give us another option, or weigh in with a few goals then that's a bonus.

 

[devilish]

I agree that we needed more quality in midfield. I think anyone watching us last year and this would have to agree.

I also think that we lacked steel in midfield. The best sides have a player to sit in front of the back four when needed to break up play. For me we've lacked that for some time. The Olympiakos game was a great example - opposition waltzing through the middle whenever they liked at times. As good a player as Carrick is he isnt a combative presence so for me, its unfair to expect him to do that job. Half the time Rooney ended up tracking back to try and help them out.

As I said, Fellaini isn't the answer to all of our issues - no one player is in my opinion. But yesterday was a good example of what he might hopefully be able to bring to the team on a consistent basis - an awkward, physical presence in the middle of the park who can help out the back 4 and give the players in front a bit of a platform.

If he can get forward and give us another option, or weigh in with a few goals then that's a bonus.

I believe that if we brought either a quality DM or a creative CM no one would have complained about last summer antics. Unfortunately Fellaini was neither one nor the other hence why so many people were against this deal. For many the Belgian signing was not only a big waste of money but also a lost opportunity in finally strengthening a much neglected CM.

United fans are probably the most forgiven fans of all top clubs. Just take Mata as an example. We passed from a horrible summer and all was forgiven when Mata signed.

 

[Red Shorts]

He'll hopefully do much better than the last time we spent near £30 million on a CM, and that in itself would be alright for me.

Makes me smile seeing all the Fellaini critics saying he did well through gritted teeth, but still come up with comments such as "he isn't mobile" or " he can't pass". Well, he clearly can pass, and he is in fact a mobile player, hence covering the most ground. It's a constant agenda against him, and it's a bit boring seeing it repeated over, when I thought it was a joy to see such control in CM from him, and makes Carrick look so outdated right now. Carrick had performances just like that last year and people were calling them masterclasses, pah.

 

[Barney]

I'm not sure Henderson, Arteta are better than him. I know you didn't mention Chelsea but before Matic he probably would have got games there too. Before Fernandinho, are we sure he wouldn't have got much time playing for City?

My apologies, it would seem it wasn't you who said that Allen would replace Henderson. I think it might have been B20 then.

Put a Gundogun or someone of that quality alongside him, and it becomes a strong midfield.

Anyway, it's a weird argument. Which of Liverpool's starting 11 would get into Barcelona, Madrid, Bayern, Dortmund exactly? Apart from Suarez, who else? I doubt Sturridge, Gerrard, Coutinho would. Your back 4 and keeper definitely wouldn't...

So I guess they're not good enough?

You were the one that stated other teams in Europe have starters around his level. I was just pointing out that it is not true.