Shinji Kagawa

[SilentWitness]

I think the signings of Mata was the nail in the head for any hopes of him being a starter for United. If i was to predict Moyes' plans i think he would like a trio of Januzaj/Mata/Rooney with RVP up top until RVP leaves/declines. I then think he'd move Rooney up top and have a RW replace Mata who could then shift into the middle. Despite peoples views that Januzaj would eventually move into the middle i think he'd be excellent at doing what people thought Kagawa could do on the wing, as he's technical, but also an excellent crosser of the ball, so he can play wide and drift inside, not either or.

Let's be realistic here, but with Rooney and Mata, he's never going to be the first name on the team sheet in that AM position, and with Januzaj, he's not going to be a LW starter either. He's too good to be sitting on the bench, and deserves a team that will consistently play him as an AM.

 

[AttackingFlair]

I think the signings of Mata was the nail in the head for any hopes of him being a starter for United. If i was to predict Moyes' plans i think he would like a trio of Januzaj/Mata/Rooney with RVP up top until RVP leaves/declines. I then think he'd move Rooney up top and have a RW replace Mata who could then shift into the middle. Despite peoples views that Januzaj would eventually move into the middle i think he'd be excellent at doing what people thought Kagawa could do on the wing, as he's technical, but also an excellent crosser of the ball, so he can play wide and drift inside, not either or.

Let's be realistic here, but with Rooney and Mata, he's never going to be the first name on the team sheet in that AM position, and with Januzaj, he's not going to be a LW starter either. He's too good to be sitting on the bench, and deserves a team that will consistently play him as an AM.

Not sure he would move Rooney up top, he likes Welbeck a lot so could give him a go there afterwards or even buy a new striker like Cavani. He also seems to like Rooney deeper even if it means centre midfield.

 

[SilentWitness]

Not sure he would move Rooney up top, he likes Welbeck a lot so could give him a go there afterwards or even buy a new striker like Cavani. He also seems to like Rooney deeper even if it means centre midfield.

Aye that's true. Alternatively he would just stick with Januzaj/Rooney/Mata as the trio and have Rafael/LB deployed like he set Coleman/Baines up in the 2012/2013 season. Then Mata/Januzaj could switch like Mirallas/Pienaar. It would work.

 

[Mad Winger]

You are a real hero, pal . If anything, your huge bias resulted into a unneeded reaction of the other extreme because several people were annoyed by your antics.

Being a hero was never my intention. I wanted to give Kagawa positive attention and put the record straight. That's it.

I'm not sure if you were around last season, but there were tons of misconceptions about Kagawa:

- "Kagawa is nice to watch, but he wasn't effective enough in 2012-2013"
- "Fergie doesn't/didn't rate him!"
- "He hardly featured in the PL last season"
- "He doesn't run enough! He seems like a lazy/immobile player!"
- "Playing him on the left for us, is not much different from playing on the left for Japan"
- "He wasn't anything special in Germany."
- "The PL is vastly superior. That's why he was only able to shine in Germany."
- "Kagawa's drop in level this season has very little to do with Moyes"
- "Kagawa's been a flop since his arrival"

Most of these myths are dead by now. Back then though, you'd see several of these myths being spouted again and again on every page, with the discussion going in circle. I don't give a shit whether or not my persistence made a difference in the long run(though it obviously did). I'm just happy that people finally seem to have come around, bar a few obvious exceptions.

 

[Will Absolute]

It's obvious Kagawa isn't going to thrive in rigid formations, where the ball is moved slowly, and there's little movement, close interplay, or quick breaks. All the good things he brings are negated and his weaknesses become paramount. He's a team player, and needs a sympathetic football environment, which he's not getting under David Moyes.

 

[Sultan]

I'm not sure if you were around last season, but there were tons of misconceptions about Kagawa:
- "Kagawa is nice to watch, but he wasn't effective enough in 2012-2013"
- "Kagawa's been a flop since his arrival"

These are not misconceptions and hold some semblance of truth.

 

[pocco]

These are not misconceptions and hold some semblance of truth.

Thats being generous too. You could make an argument for some of the others.

Personally I think Mad Winger has just officially lost the plot. Most people opinions on Kagawa haven't changed. He seems to think he's some sort of Prophet that has brought the truth. In reality he just can't see the wood from the trees when it comes to Kagawa.

 

[Mad Winger]

These are not misconceptions and hold some semblance of truth.

Kagawa had the 4th best goals/assist ratio in the team, the second best passing accuracy, the highest number of successful through balls per game, and we won almost every game he started. If we go by goals/assist per minutes played in the PL and CL, the difference between Hazard and Kagawa is microscopical in that season. If we remove Hazard's penalties(he scored on many), then Kagawa is probably edging it.

I wouldn't call this being ineffective. Especially not for playing in an unfamilir setup in an unfamiliar league. I'm a big Kagawa fan(to say the least), but even I didn't expect him to be this effective in his first season.

As for Kagawa being a flop? He only cost us 12 million and has already had a good(decent at the very worst) first season. This season he's been one of our best players in the CL, which incidentally is the only tournament we've looked good in. In the PL he's barely been used. Only 7 starts in 28 games, and he's been subbed off in 5 of them.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

It's obvious Kagawa isn't going to thrive in rigid formations, where the ball is moved slowly, and there's little movement, close interplay, or quick breaks. All the good things he brings are negated and his weaknesses become paramount. He's a team player, and needs a sympathetic football environment, which he's not getting under David Moyes.

Poor wee Kagawa and the "unsympathetic football environment" It must be so much more difficult for him than everyone else on the team.

Oh wait. Turns out they're all trying to play football too. Who'd have thunk it?

 

[Sultan]

Kagawa had the 4th best goals/assist ratio in the team, the second best passing accuracy, the highest number of successful through balls per game, and we won almost every game he started. If we go by goals/assist per minutes played in the PL and CL, the difference between Hazard and Kagawa is microscopical in that season. If we remove Hazard's penalties(he scored on many), then Kagawa is probably edging it.

I wouldn't call this being ineffective. Especially not for playing in an unfamilir setup in an unfamiliar league. I'm a big Kagawa fan(to say the least), but even I didn't expect him to be this effective in his first season.

As for Kagawa being a flop? He only cost us 12 million and has already had a good(decent at the very worst) first season. This season he's been one of our best players in the CL, which incidentally is the only tournament we've looked good in. In the PL he's barely been used. Only 7 starts in 28 games, and he's been subbed off in 5 of them.

He plays in a forward role, and having had the 4th best goals/assist is to be expected. His pass accuracy is high because mostly due to hardly playing risk averse passes - most of his passes consist of pretty 5 yard passes sideways or forward. United almost won every game last year regardless of Kagawa. Hazard is light years ahead of Kagawa as a player regardless of stats. Kagawa's best performances in European games points to him being too weak for the Premiership.

 

[Revan]

Kagawa had the 4th best goals/assist ratio in the team, the second best passing accuracy, the highest number of successful through balls per game, and we won almost every game he started. If we go by goals/assist per minutes played in the PL and CL, the difference between Hazard and Kagawa is microscopical in that season. If we remove Hazard's penalties(he scored on many), then Kagawa is probably edging it.

I wouldn't call this being ineffective. Especially not for playing in an unfamilir setup in an unfamiliar league. I'm a big Kagawa fan(to say the least), but even I didn't expect him to be this effective in his first season.

As for Kagawa being a flop? He only cost us 12 million and has already had a good(decent at the very worst) first season. This season he's been one of our best players in the CL, which incidentally is the only tournament we've looked good in. In the PL he's barely been used. Only 7 starts in 28 games, and he's been subbed off in 5 of them.

I don't believe it. No chance.

 

[Sultan]

Shinji has not played due to rigid formations, team mates not up to standard, formations, adapting to a new league, country, weather, food, language, Moyes, Sir Alex etc...

 

[Sultan]

Shinji's had a hard time dislodging Young and Valencia over the last 18 Months which is some achievement. He needs to really up his game big time in the last 10 games to extend his career at United.

 

[Brophs]

Shinji has not played due to rigid formations, team mates not up to standard, formations, adapting to a new league, country, weather, food, language, Moyes, Sir Alex etc...

I'll tell you what, though. When we finally do get that perfect storm of occurrences, when the moons align and all that jazz, we're going to see one hell of a game from him.

 

[Mad Winger]

the 4th best goals/assist is to be expected.

If he primarily was playing as a no.10, maybe. But he spent most of his time on the left wing. The people who got ahead of Kagawa in the stats were always gonna do that. Hernandez(no.1) is famous for his effectivity and good goal return in terms of minutes played. RVP arguably had the best season of his life, and was very much the best lone striker in the world(unless you count Messi as a lone striker). Rooney has been in United since he was a teenager, and has the whole team built around him.

Seeing as he played in an unfamiliar setup in a unfamiliar league, in his second best position(if that), I don't think he could have hoped for better than 4th.

His pass accuracy is high because mostly due to hardly playing risk averse passes

Because our other players were playing such an intense and risky passing game? At least Kagawa made many through balls and cheeky flicks, unlike most of our other players.

Hazard is light years ahead of Kagawa as a player regardless of stats.

I never wrote that Kagawa was better than Hazard. I simply pointed out that the people who complained about Kagawa being ineffective, are wrong. Hazard was praised for his great game and effectivity, but Kagawa was on par with him in the PL(and CL).

Kagawa's best performances in European games points to him being too weak for the Premiership.

Not under Fergie! Kagawa did much better in the PL than he did in the CL last season. Kagawa's best games were against Norwich, West Ham, Aston Villa and Everton. Because of his performances in the two first league games, he won POTM August(either on this site, or manutd.com).

 

[Sultan]

I'll tell you what, though. When we finally do get that perfect storm of occurrences, when the moons align and all that jazz, we're going to see one hell of a game from him.

Cosmic coincidence?

 

[Brophs]

Cosmic coincidence?

He hasn't been the same player since he left Steaua Bucharest.

 

[Sultan]

Kagawa's best games were against Norwich, West Ham, Aston Villa and Everton.

So his best performances were against teams of the stature of Norwich, Villa, and West Ham?

OK

 

[pocco]

Mad Wingers now making up his own awards.

Shinji Kagawa - Player Of The Year Award*

*For the month of August.

 

[Sultan]

To be fair, I have a soft spot for Shinji. I hope he succeeds. We can see he has that quality to step up.

 

[Mad Winger]

So his best performances were against teams of the stature of Norwich, Villa, and West Ham?

Physical PL sides, out to break our game apart. Aren't these the type of teams that the Kagawa critics think he'll struggle against?

Kagawa could only play a couple of big games in the PL, because of his long injury spell and lack of PL experience. I think he got to play against Chelsea and/or Liverpool once or twice, but other than that, he wasn't utilized in the bigger games. In the CL, we only had 2 big games(both against Real). He only featured in the first, where did a decent job.

*For the month of August.

Thanks for spotting that

 

[acnumber9]

Why does his nationality come into it? Empire made quite a simple and obvious point - what Kagawa did in that move is something that hardly any of our players do and it's stuff like that which makes our football more fluid.

I think some people have such an obsession with Japanese culture that it spills over into ridiculous bias. I can't read Empire's posts so any points simple or otherwise are lost.

 

[Sphaero]

Being a hero was never my intention. I wanted to give Kagawa positive attention and put the record straight. That's it.

I'm not sure if you were around last season, but there were tons of misconceptions about Kagawa:
- "Kagawa is nice to watch, but he wasn't effective enough in 2012-2013"
- "Fergie doesn't/didn't rate him!"
- "He hardly featured in the PL last season"
- "He doesn't run enough! He seems like a lazy/immobile player!"
- "Playing him on the left for us, is not much different from playing on the left for Japan"
- "He wasn't anything special in Germany."
- "The PL is vastly superior. That's why he was only able to shine in Germany."
- "Kagawa's drop in level this season has very little to do with Moyes"
- "Kagawa's been a flop since his arrival"

Most of these myths are dead by now. Back then though, you'd see several of these myths being spouted again and again on every page, with the discussion going in circle. I don't give a shit whether or not my persistence made a difference in the long run(though it obviously did). I'm just happy that people finally seem to have come around, bar a few obvious exceptions.

Look, I don´t even dissagree with everything you say. I for example have a similar opinion on the bolded parts and have argued several times against these points myself. The first three points were at most occassionaly brought up and also shot down pretty quickly by several poster on here. The general receiption of his first year on here was positive, because under the given circumstances it was a decent season.

I have personally not seen a single poster, who did not think that he was special in the Bundesliga. If anything his role at Dortmund was blown out of proportion by several United fans, which led to false expectations. I have lost count, how many times he was named Player of the year in the Bundesliga on here, a title he (rightfully) never received.

So, my gripe is for the most part not the content of your posts, but the way you bring them across. It is so damn onesided that it simply comes across as piling up excuses for him. There is a clear difference between pointing things out/explaining them and using them as an absolution for any personal mistakes/flaws on the players part.

Does not make it better, that you position yourself here as some sort of bringer of enlightement, who opens the eyes of the blind and sets things right. This does not only insult the people of the other camp, but also the several poster who debated the other way around. Your comment about me being around in this thread was also hopefully sarcastic, right? You used several of my posts in this thread as base for some of your arguments, sometimes with a nice little twist to suit your agenda.

 

[Wumminator]

I think some people have such an obsession with Japanese culture that it spills over into ridiculous bias. I can't read Empire's posts so any points simple or otherwise are lost.

Nothing to do with Japanese football. Moreso "intelligent" players. Anyone whose style is in any way reminiscent of Barcelona is fantastic and should be worshipped no matter what. People nowadays see "intelligence" as quick pass and move football and anyone who fits into that is hyped to the sun. Never mind that there are going to be certain players who play intelligently but quite simply aren't very good at it. Kagawa come on and lost the ball twice within a couple of minutes the other day with silly bits of play but still he's an intelligent player who just needs everyone to sort their playing style out.

 

[Mad Winger]

So, my gripe is for the most part not the content of your posts, but the way you bring them across. It is so damn onesided that it simply comes across as piling up excuses for him. There is a clear difference between pointing things out/explaining them and using them as an absolution for any personal mistakes/flaws on the players part.

The reason they come across as one sided is because they are one sided. The only time I post in player threads, is when I'm out to say something positive about the player concerned, and to react to comments I find to be plain wrong. The exception was the Rooney thread, but that had more to do with his transfer request. In fact, I used to be one of the only posters who defended Young in his player thread. Granted I never said that he was a great player, but I reacted strongly to people always scapegoating him and severly underestimating his skills.

The Kagawa thread stands out only because I've been more persistent here. Why? Because I've viewed Kagawa as a key player for the future all along. I feel that he's just what we need. That's why it's so frustrating to see Moyes ruin everything after Kagawa had a good first season. Kagawa went from being pretty much a dead on starter to a bench warmer, behind Welbeck and Januzaj in the pecking order for the AM position. To me, that's inexcuseable.

And yes, most of the comments I wrote in my list above occured many times, more often than not unchallenged. But this thread has taken a turn for the better recently, which I think is great. It's OK with some constructive criticism, but some of the player threads on this website are a disgrace to read.

Your comment about me being around in this thread was also hopefully sarcastic, right? You used several of my posts in this thread as base for some of your arguments, sometimes with a nice little twist to suit your agenda.

Nope, I genuinely think you're a very good poster, and I think you bring a lot of good stuff to the discussion. Like you said yourself, as far as contents and opinions go, we're not that different. The difference is that I come across as a persistent dickhead(though to be fair I'm deliberately doing so) with a clear opinion in the debate, whereas you are more "moderate" and better at writing.

 

[pocco]

To be fair, I have a soft spot for Shinji. I hope he succeeds. We can see he has that quality to step up.

Aye, I think we all do. There's just some extreme views which bring about arguments which lead others to think we just don't like the guy. It couldn't be further from the case, however.

I think we all recognise the ability the guy has. He never complains in the media, always taking responsibility himself for his game time/form. He seems like a genuinely good guy. He's a likeable player and I think we all hope he can find his place here soon. I think he could have a big part to play in the upcoming weeks.

 

[reelworld]

Kagawa come on and lost the ball twice within a couple of minutes the other day with silly bits of play but still he's an intelligent player who just needs everyone to sort their playing style out.

I love how Twigginater repeats on and on how Kagawa lost the ball with his first 2 touch to make his point in how poor he is. How dare an attacking player lost possession of the ball?? The nerve of him eh? Might as well sell him before he misplaced another pass

Sent from my GT-I8160 using Tapatalk 2

 

[reelworld]

Shinji's had a hard time dislodging Young and Valencia over the last 18 Months which is some achievement. He needs to really up his game big time in the last 10 games to extend his career at United.

Young hardly played at the end of last season because he was injured. And Kagawa played more in on 6 months of last season than Young. He was never in competition with Valencia either. And considering how awful we played this season with those two, I wouldnt read too much into how he cant displaced them

Sent from my GT-I8160 using Tapatalk 2

 

[AlwaysRedwood]

This thread has turned into a "we hate Kagawa" jerk off session. For all your complaining about Mad Winger, a small cluster of you are the exact other side of the coin. Laughably so.

 

[MoneyMay]

This thread has turned into a "we hate Kagawa" jerk off session. For all your complaining about Mad Winger, a small cluster of you are the exact other side of the coin. Laughably so.

Pretty much this. Both sides embarrassing...

 

[fishfingers15]

To be fair, I have a soft spot for Shinji. I hope he succeeds. We can see he has that quality to step up.

You're showing it terribly then. All you are doing is countering Mad Winger and going to the other extreme. Many of us are tired of this shit, some praising Kagawa and blaming Moyes for his failure and some others just accusing Kagawa for not showing up. The truth is somewhere in the middle and if Young and Valencia deserve a shot at next season, Kagawa does too. Whether or not he'll get the chance is another matter though, but the 10 games to save the season is clearly bullshit. How many games do you reckon Moyes has? Another season? Why is that exactly? We don't sack managers? Climb off that unicorn.

As supporters, we don't have much choice, but if you are preaching patience of managers, extend the courtesy to players as well.

 

[Ekeke]

I'm just basing it on the strength of the quality in this league system at the moment. I've never seen anything like it. Dortmund and Bayern are as good as us, is the rest of the league close?

How does that have to do with Kagawa who isnt playing in Bundasliga 2013/2014? He's been in England for 18 months. Wake up

 

[Gladiator]

Just because Bayern Munich and Dortmund have great teams doesn't mean the league as a whole is strong. How have the other German teams done in Europe recently?

to be fair, english clubs bar tottenham havent done well in CL

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Aye, I think we all do. There's just some extreme views which bring about arguments which lead others to think we just don't like the guy. It couldn't be further from the case, however.

I think we all recognise the ability the guy has. He never complains in the media, always taking responsibility himself for his game time/form. He seems like a genuinely good guy. He's a likeable player and I think we all hope he can find his place here soon. I think he could have a big part to play in the upcoming weeks.

That's the worst thing about this thread. The evangelical fervour from Mental Winger and his crew means I end up being overly critical of a neat and tidy footballer who brings something a bit different to the team and clearly has an excellent attitude.

Feels like kicking a puppy sometimes but it's the only way to counteract this crusade to blame absolutely anyone but Shinji fecking Kagawa for his underwhelming United career so far.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

to be fair, english clubs bar tottenham havent done well in CL

Not sure what you mean but 5th place Liverpool were one of three different English clubs to win the CL in recent years.

That's as well as heavy representation in finals and semi-finals.

 

[Wumminator]

That's the worst thing about this thread. The evangelical fervour from Mental Winger and his crew means I end up being overly critical of a neat and tidy footballer who brings something a bit different to the team and clearly has an excellent attitude.

Feels like kicking a puppy sometimes but it's the only way to counteract this crusade to blame absolutely anyone but Shinji fecking Kagawa for his underwhelming United career so far.

Pretty much this.

 

[Sultan]

You're showing it terribly then. All you are doing is countering Mad Winger and going to the other extreme. Many of us are tired of this shit, some praising Kagawa and blaming Moyes for his failure and some others just accusing Kagawa for not showing up. The truth is somewhere in the middle and if Young and Valencia deserve a shot at next season, Kagawa does too. Whether or not he'll get the chance is another matter though, but the 10 games to save the season is clearly bullshit. How many games do you reckon Moyes has? Another season? Why is that exactly? We don't sack managers? Climb off that unicorn.

As supporters, we don't have much choice, but if you are preaching patience of managers, extend the courtesy to players as well.

Me and Mad Winger see things differently. It's called differences of opinions. I have never claimed to be right or Mad Winger wrong.

Young, and Valencia need to be sold if possible. They've been under performing for a couple of seasons. As has Shinji. If you read my post carefully again I was suggesting he does well over the remainder of the season and extends his career at United so he can have another season to demonstrate his undoubted abilities. I'm not sure why you need to bring Moyes into the equation. However, I'll give you my take on the situation. If Moyes has not turned this around by Christmas or end of next season I reckon he should make way for a new manager.

Finally, I can't ever remember saying let alone "preaching" we should extend our patience to under performing staff.

 

[Salfordlad70]

That's the worst thing about this thread. The evangelical fervour from Mental Winger and his crew means I end up being overly critical of a neat and tidy footballer who brings something a bit different to the team and clearly has an excellent attitude.

Feels like kicking a puppy sometimes but it's the only way to counteract this crusade to blame absolutely anyone but Shinji fecking Kagawa for his underwhelming United career so far.

The frustrating thing is that we know he has it.It's hard to defend his United career thus far and he has himself to blame and he knows it.His attitude has been good overall and he has shown signs and had good games and he has been playing strange-ish roles within a dysfunctional team.I don't know whether he has a future here with us, I'd like him to have and yet there seems no way.If we are to progress with our footballing style then perhaps an arm round him and some encouragement and he may have a part to play and we may see the real shinji.He does seem to split opinions, even more than the mop!

 

[acnumber9]

This thread has turned into a "we hate Kagawa" jerk off session. For all your complaining about Mad Winger, a small cluster of you are the exact other side of the coin. Laughably so.

The biggest problem is that anything other than fawning over Kagswa is deemed to be hatred. It's ridiculously melodramatic. If you want to see something close to hatred you're in the wrong player thread.

 

[Revan]

This thread has turned into a "we hate Kagawa" jerk off session. For all your complaining about Mad Winger, a small cluster of you are the exact other side of the coin. Laughably so.

MadWinger has done the same effect for Kagawa as Glaston for Spurs. Not exactly, and Kagawa is still one of my favorite players, but still, I can understand a few people going into the other extreme when they debate with MW. Twigginator is a bit weird IMO, generally he has completely different views on everything with everyone.