Who here hopes United get spanked tonight?

[Brophs]

It depends entirely on how much you rate the squad as it is. Personally, I think a competent manager could have a good crack at every single trophy with this current squad. I thought it last season, I thought it at the start of the season and I still vehemently believe it to be the case now. A few players, given who is leaving, is now imperative, but this unprecedented £200 million spend - I agree, we won't hit that mark - would just add to my belief that this squad should be challenging for every honour. We didn't need this money to buy success, a good or great manager, and we should have hired the best, would have improved the players at his disposal anyway.

The problem is the manager, and it has been from the outset. Improve on him and fourth will be a piece of piss.

It depends. I rate the squad as being good, but it has, and has had for a long time, some glaring weaknesses. And those are being compounded by the other players who we've relied upon for a long time also not really doing it. People like Carrick are well into their thirties now. Are they going to be able to do it at the level they were? As for the manager being the problem, yeah, he's certainly a big part of it. The players have let themselves down too, though.

I don't really equate challenging as buying success. But a huge investment into a team has generally lead to a team challenging for a league in the past it's not a "massive" assumption. Most of the turnover of players will be players who are barely playing right now so I don't see why if an "Important defender" like Rio Ferdinand is let go it will lead to a massive downfall. Or is this the next excuse for Moyes?

I think it is a massive assumption, when you remove possible a half dozen players from the squad that had you challenging in the past. Referring to Rio as an "important" defender was wrong, in the sense that he's not playing, but last season he was outstanding. So you either need someone to step up or you're going to be left short. Vidic and Evra play regularly and usually do when fit. Then you have others that are being speculated as leaving, like Nani and Hernandez. They might not play every week but what guarantees do you have that the new players are going to be as good or better? Or that they'll even settle quickly?

Then again, all of what I've said is premised on the fact that though I think Moyes has done a really poor job, I'm not convinced it would have been a great season under Fergie either, at least in terms of winning the league, had he not seriously invested. I think all three of Rio, Vidic and Evra have gone past their best. Their replacements aren't nearly as good at the moment. Our midfield is still weak and that was a recurring theme under Fergie. Valencia and Young had both been reasonably poor last season, so I don't know if that would have changed had Fergie been here. So without the continuity of Fergie being here and knowing how to get the most out of this group of players, it's an even tougher ask to overhaul the squad at the same time as still being challengers. Look at Spurs and Liverpool, for example. They both brought in lots of new signings and very few are playing. Liverpool's greatest successes are the players that were already there. Spurs appear to have bought really badly in terms of the players being suited to the league. I don't see why that couldn't happen to us too.

 

[amolbhatia50k]

This is my worry. No matter what we spend in the Summer, the expectancy for next season is fourth place. And that is ridiculous.

A title challenge will be expected next season and rightfully so.

 

[FlawlessThaw]

Then again, all of what I've said is premised on the fact that though I think Moyes has done a really poor job, I'm not convinced it would have been a great season under Fergie either, at least in terms of winning the league, had he not seriously invested. I think all three of Rio, Vidic and Evra have gone past their best. Their replacements aren't nearly as good at the moment. Our midfield is still weak and that was a recurring theme under Fergie. Valencia and Young had both been reasonably poor last season, so I don't know if that would have changed had Fergie been here. So without the continuity of Fergie being here and knowing how to get the most out of this group of players, it's an even tougher ask to overhaul the squad at the same time as still being challengers. Look at Spurs and Liverpool, for example. They both brought in lots of new signings and very few are playing. Liverpool's greatest successes are the players that were already there. Spurs appear to have bought really badly in terms of the players being suited to the league. I don't see why that couldn't happen to us too.

We can't say for certain but I think we would have been fine with a manager who the players believed in. This is all based on assumption but I feel Moyes had lost the dressing room months ago and the players just don't believe in him. He's made the task difficult for himself and thus he has to take the fair expectations that every other club expects when you spend £200m+ over the a year long period. You can only defend someone for so long.

 

[The White Pele]

If we go through tomorrow we will all be shitting ourselves during the QF draw.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

It depends. I rate the squad as being good, but it has, and has had for a long time, some glaring weaknesses. And those are being compounded by the other players who we've relied upon for a long time also not really doing it. People like Carrick are well into their thirties now. Are they going to be able to do it at the level they were? As for the manager being the problem, yeah, he's certainly a big part of it. The players have let themselves down too, though.

I think it is a massive assumption, when you remove possible a half dozen players from the squad that had you challenging in the past. Referring to Rio as an "important" defender was wrong, in the sense that he's not playing, but last season he was outstanding. So you either need someone to step up or you're going to be left short. Vidic and Evra play regularly and usually do when fit. Then you have others that are being speculated as leaving, like Nani and Hernandez. They might not play every week but what guarantees do you have that the new players are going to be as good or better? Or that they'll even settle quickly?

Then again, all of what I've said is premised on the fact that though I think Moyes has done a really poor job, I'm not convinced it would have been a great season under Fergie either, at least in terms of winning the league, had he not seriously invested. I think all three of Rio, Vidic and Evra have gone past their best. Their replacements aren't nearly as good at the moment. Our midfield is still weak and that was a recurring theme under Fergie. Valencia and Young had both been reasonably poor last season, so I don't know if that would have changed had Fergie been here. So without the continuity of Fergie being here and knowing how to get the most out of this group of players, it's an even tougher ask to overhaul the squad at the same time as still being challengers. Look at Spurs and Liverpool, for example. They both brought in lots of new signings and very few are playing. Liverpool's greatest successes are the players that were already there. Spurs appear to have bought really badly in terms of the players being suited to the league. I don't see why that couldn't happen to us too.

Yup. Season after season it's the "top four" team that spends the most money that people get all giddy about in the summer, only for the teams that spend the least money (usually us!) who end up at the top of the table.

The benefits of a big transfer splurge are usually felt the season after the money is spent, when new signings have properly bedded in. If we are to accept that our manager (whoever that might be) really does need to invest a lot in the squad then we also have to expect that we won't see the benefits until 2015/16. Look at the best players for Chelsea, City, Arsenal and Liverpool this season. Not one of them changed clubs in the summer.

Of course, this will mean that any wobbles next season will be jumped upon by people who won't accept this and the capability of the present incumbent (Moyes, or whoever replaces him) will be called into question. All the more so if he's spent a fortune in the summer. And thus, the cycle continues. Welcome to life supporting a football club not managed by Sir Alex Ferguson.

 

[NoLogo]

As much as I want Moyes to be fired by now I can't bring myself to hoping we will lose. With only one day to go I already start hoping that we can turn the tie somehow around and go through. I just don't wanna go out in the first knock out round of the CL.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

As much as I want Moyes to be fired by now I can't bring myself to hoping we will lose. With only one day to go I already start hoping that we can turn the tie somehow around and go through. I just don't wanna go out in the first knock out round of the CL.

There's a lot of people getting the wrong impression from the timing of the bump.

This thread was originally about the league game against Arsenal. In a cup competition, anything can happen, so you'd have to be a seriously miserable sod not to have a tiny bit of hope, deep down, that we can salvage something in Europe this season. Dropping the point we earned against Arsenal would have made feck all difference to our season as a whole, so the suggestion that some of us might be wishing for a heavy defeat in that particular fixture was a little less radical.

 

[Shane88]

If we go through tomorrow we will all be shitting ourselves during the QF draw.

I won't be.

We've had some horrible results this season. The possibility of two more spankings by the likes of Bayern/Madrid/Barca doesn't overly concern me. If we manage to get through, just sit back and pray for a miracle in the quarters.

 

[fishfingers15]

We should be beating Olympiakos, whether Moyes gets sacked, or gets awarded a 10 year contract because our team is much better than them and there's just no excuse for losing.

 

[Brophs]

We should be beating Olympiakos, whether Moyes gets sacked, or gets awarded a 10 year contract because our team is much better than them and there's just no excuse for losing.

Of course we should. But take any team in the world, under new management, in an absolute tailspin form-wise, having just been thumped by their most hated rivals and with the media scrutiny that comes with this club and it suddenly becomes a different game.

 

[FlawlessThaw]

Add the fact that we are 2-0 down, how is Moyes expected to win in such difficult circumstances!

 

[Sandikan]

tomorrow is the classic no win scenario.

Even a 3-0 will be met with...well...we should be beating them by 3.

 

[Care_de_Bobo]

Exactly. I can see him coming out after we spent 200M and finished 4th next season saying that HE'S MADE IT, being incredibly proud of himself, in spite of the fact that the squad he inherited won the league comfortably.

The squad was full of ageing players in key positions to be fair. Evra, Vidic, Ferdinand, Giggs, and Carrick might look good players on paper, but the reality is they are all past their best, and are liabilities at times. The majority of the rest of the squad is pretty young, Rooney, RVP, Young, Nani,and Valencia are the only players you could make a case for being in the prime of their careers age wise and the less said about those three wingers the better. We have some great young players with enormous potential, but we are in desperate need of some fresh faces in a few key positions.

I'm not trying to defend Moyes, he should have done better, but the squad he inherited is nowhere near as good as some of our fans think. We were pretty poor at times last season too, the difference was we had a lot of luck(last minute deflected free kick vs City, 2 players sent off for Chelsea at the Bridge, tumescent performance against Liverpool saved by a late penalty, own goal winners against Villa and Sunderland), RVP was on fire, and we still had Fergie without whom I doubt we would have come from behind in so many games last season.

Some of the 'Moyes out' brigade seem to want to blame him for everything that's gone wrong, he's definitely made mistakes and needs to buck up his ideas but can we not also recognise that he's had some really bad luck with injuries, decisions in games, deflections etc. and hasn't actually been left with the greatest squad in the world, some of the players have been awful regardless of tactics and confidence. One of the few positives I can find regarding Moyes staying on for another year is that he must have learned a lot about this squad and now has the chance to address its issues in the summer, if he fails to do so I wouldn't mind seeing him leave to be honest.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

tomorrow is the classic no win scenario.

Even a 3-0 will be met with...well...we should be beating them by 3.

Plus we shouldn't have needed to beat them 3-0 in first place blah blah blah...

It would be nice to have a memorable CL night in OT though. Might be the last for a while.

 

[LARulz]

tomorrow is the classic no win scenario.

Even a 3-0 will be met with...well...we should be beating them by 3.

Pretty much.

But I do not want us to lose. IF we however do lose then I want the silver lining of the board taking some serious action and him being told it is not working out.

 

[Sandikan]

Plus we shouldn't have needed to beat them 3-0 in first place blah blah blah...

It would be nice to have a memorable CL night in OT though. Might be the last for a while.

Exactly this. Call me a fanboy, but I want one massive quarter final to see us out of the cup. Real or Barcelona would be nice. I don't think we'd get smashed as badly as some think, as Moyes would set up with the most defensive lineup ever seen

 

[RustyS]

The squad was full of ageing players in key positions to be fair. Evra, Vidic, Ferdinand, Giggs, and Carrick might look good players on paper, but the reality is they are all past their best, and are liabilities at times. The majority of the rest of the squad is pretty young, Rooney, RVP, Young, Nani,and Valencia are the only players you could make a case for being in the prime of their careers age wise and the less said about those three wingers the better. We have some great young players with enormous potential, but we are in desperate need of some fresh faces in a few key positions.

I'm not trying to defend Moyes, he should have done better, but the squad he inherited is nowhere near as good as some of our fans think. We were pretty poor at times last season too, the difference was we had a lot of luck(last minute deflected free kick vs City, 2 players sent off for Chelsea at the Bridge, tumescent performance against Liverpool saved by a late penalty, own goal winners against Villa and Sunderland), RVP was on fire, and we still had Fergie without whom I doubt we would have come from behind in so many games last season.

Some of the 'Moyes out' brigade seem to want to blame him for everything that's gone wrong, he's definitely made mistakes and needs to buck up his ideas but can we not also recognise that he's had some really bad luck with injuries, decisions in games, deflections etc. and hasn't actually been left with the greatest squad in the world, some of the players have been awful regardless of tactics and confidence. One of the few positives I can find regarding Moyes staying on for another year is that he must have learned a lot about this squad and now has the chance to address its issues in the summer, if he fails to do so I wouldn't mind seeing him leave to be honest.

Posts like this fail to see the a point that is made over and over by the "Moyes out brigade". He hasn't shown a semblance of a plan, tactical nous, or any sign that he has what it takes to be a manager at a club like United. I agree with a lot of your post but any manager would have had a the team going in a direction at least. Why would the club trust him? What has he shown that would make the board go, "right, he's obviously brilliant. We just need to give him another 100 million and be patient with him"? You are free to believe that there is a brilliant manager in there somewhere based on faith, just don't expect a lot of people to take that leap of faith with you.

I'm still waiting for someone to tell me what Moyes is trying to do. What kind of football is he trying to play? Where is he trying to take us? I watch a fair bit of football and from what I see, the player are going out there and trying whatever makes sense to them. It is unorganized, chaotic, lacking in cohesion and common vision, and obviously as a result, completely ineffective.

 

[Garethw]

Posts like this fail to see the a point that is made over and over by the "Moyes out brigade". He hasn't shown a semblance of a plan, tactical nous, or any sign that he has what it takes to be a manager at a club like United. I agree with a lot of your post but any manager would have had a the team going in a direction at least. Why would the club trust him? What has he shown that would make the board go, "right, he's obviously brilliant. We just need to give him another 100 million and be patient with him"? You are free to believe that there is a brilliant manager in there somewhere based on faith, just don't expect a lot of people to take that leap of faith with you.

I'm still waiting for someone to tell me what Moyes is trying to do. What kind of football is he trying to play? Where is he trying to take us? I watch a fair bit of football and from what I see, the player are going out there and trying whatever makes sense to them. It is unorganized, chaotic, lacking in cohesion and common vision, and obviously as a result, completely ineffective.

Good post mate. I agree with all of that.

 

[bugmat]

Posts like this fail to see the a point that is made over and over by the "Moyes out brigade". He hasn't shown a semblance of a plan, tactical nous, or any sign that he has what it takes to be a manager at a club like United. I agree with a lot of your post but any manager would have had a the team going in a direction at least. Why would the club trust him? What has he shown that would make the board go, "right, he's obviously brilliant. We just need to give him another 100 million and be patient with him"? You are free to believe that there is a brilliant manager in there somewhere based on faith, just don't expect a lot of people to take that leap of faith with you.

I'm still waiting for someone to tell me what Moyes is trying to do. What kind of football is he trying to play? Where is he trying to take us? I watch a fair bit of football and from what I see, the player are going out there and trying whatever makes sense to them. It is unorganized, chaotic, lacking in cohesion and common vision, and obviously as a result, completely ineffective.

Totally agree - this is where we're at. The team is playing poorly on autopilot because it isn't being managed properly.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Posts like this fail to see the a point that is made over and over by the "Moyes out brigade". He hasn't shown a semblance of a plan, tactical nous, or any sign that he has what it takes to be a manager at a club like United. I agree with a lot of your post but any manager would have had a the team going in a direction at least. Why would the club trust him? What has he shown that would make the board go, "right, he's obviously brilliant. We just need to give him another 100 million and be patient with him"? You are free to believe that there is a brilliant manager in there somewhere based on faith, just don't expect a lot of people to take that leap of faith with you.

I'm still waiting for someone to tell me what Moyes is trying to do. What kind of football is he trying to play? Where is he trying to take us? I watch a fair bit of football and from what I see, the player are going out there and trying whatever makes sense to them. It is unorganized, chaotic, lacking in cohesion and common vision, and obviously as a result, completely ineffective.

You know that the poster you're replying to could agree with every word you say, yet stil be entirely correct with everything he's said?

 

[Godfather]

tomorrow is the classic no win scenario.


Even a 3-0 will be met with...well...we should be beating them by 3.

You could also say it's a win win situation for supporters. If we go through hey how great is that. If we fail miserably hey Moyes might be sacked soon

 

[RustyS]

You know that the poster you're replying to could agree with every word you say, yet stil be entirely correct with everything he's said?

We disagree at one major point which is the end result. He wouldn't mind having Moyes for another year whereas I think Moyes should earn another year and his time to do that is running out. He thinks that a positive out of this is that Moyes can fix things over the summer whereas at this point I'm not sure I trust Moyes to fix anything. I'm not even sure what Moyes thinks the "fix" is.

BTW, I said I agree with most of his post. The disagreement is on the last part only.

 

[Sandikan]

You could also say it's a win win situation for supporters. If we go through hey how great is that. If we fail miserably hey Moyes might be sacked soon

Except there's no chance he'll be sacked, so we'll be out, and have no win.

 

[Crackers]

You could also say it's a win win situation for supporters. If we go through hey how great is that. If we fail miserably hey Moyes might be sacked soon

The idea situation is for us to win(ignoring Moyes tactics), and him to be sacked after West Brom.

 

[kouroux]

Exactly this. Call me a fanboy, but I want one massive quarter final to see us out of the cup. Real or Barcelona would be nice. I don't think we'd get smashed as badly as some think, as Moyes would set up with the most defensive lineup ever seen

Moyes is a more cautious and defensive coach that we'd like but we still have conceded goals all season long. If we meet one of the big boys in the QF, I don't think a defensive set up would help up, only the players finally waking up would.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

We disagree at one major point which is the end result. He wouldn't mind having Moyes for another year whereas I think Moyes should earn another year and his time to do that is running out. He thinks that a positive out of this is that Moyes can fix things over the summer whereas at this point I'm not sure I trust Moyes to fix anything. I'm not even sure what Moyes thinks the "fix" is.

BTW, I said I agree with most of his post. The disagreement is on the last part only.

Oh right, yeah.

I'm somewhere between two of you. Agree with everything you both said and running out of faith in Moyes by the week.

 

[Will Absolute]

Faith in Moyes at this stage can be based on nothing but faith. There's no rational justification for it.

Important decisions should be based on reason. Sentiment binds a fan to his club, but should be eschewed when making strategic decisions about the club's future.

 

[KiD MoYeS]

Faith in Moyes at this stage can be based on nothing but faith. There's no rational justification for it.

Important decisions should be based on reason. Sentiment binds a fan to his club, but should be eschewed when making strategic decisions about the club's future.

Faith in Moyes can be based on faith in the club and the board to do what is right. I really hope they know what they're doing, because I'd sack Moyes in the morning without a second thought.

 

[Cal?]

Faith in Moyes can be based on faith in the club and the board to do what is right. I really hope they know what they're doing, because I'd sack Moyes in the morning without a second thought.

I'd have sacked him months ago, certainly when he came up with the "we should be making it difficult for Newcastle" quote.

 

[Will Absolute]

Faith in Moyes can be based on faith in the club and the board to do what is right. I really hope they know what they're doing, because I'd sack Moyes in the morning without a second thought.

I don't have much faith in that.

I prefer to trust my own judgement, which is shared by 92% of this forum.

 

[BennyBlanco]

It'll be interesting if this relegation form keeps up into next year just how long the powers that be at United will continue to sit back and accept it before their sanctimonious "We're different than these... lesser clubs, we're better" approach to management shatters.

 

[iSparky]

I just want to see something, anything on the pitch from the manager and team. Even a bit of fight, they can at least give us that.

 

[Sarni]

If we go through tomorrow we will all be shitting ourselves during the QF draw.

Not really. There aren't any teams left that we could cope with. All the remaining 7 sides would beat us convincingly.

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

I'm hoping we would win and progress.

Hate Moyes or not, losing twice to Olympiacos is just horrible!

 

[The Man Himself]

Not really. There aren't any teams left that we could cope with. All the remaining 7 sides would beat us convincingly.

In theory. In theory, Chelsea had no right to win 2012 and CL and same with Liverpool in 2005. Let's hope we progress first and then see how it unfolds.

 

[Godfather]

Except there's no chance he'll be sacked, so we'll be out, and have no win.

Well if the performances and results won't improve in the upcoming games I don't think we will see him much longer at United. He might not be sacked Immediately but every shit result will eventually lead to him getting the sack

 

[Sarni]

In theory. In theory, Chelsea had no right to win 2012 and CL and same with Liverpool in 2005. Let's hope we progress first and then see how it unfolds.

We are much worse than Chelsea 2012 and they had to have enormous amounts of luck to win it anyway.

 

[The Man Himself]

We are much worse than Chelsea 2012 and they had to have enormous amounts of luck to win it anyway.

I know but in a spell of 10-15 min over 2 legs can turn decisive, unlike a league campaign. Obviously it will be highly unlikely that we will get past QF even if we win decisively tonight but there will be hope. Dortmund are not in greatest of shapes at the moment for instance and we can draw them and put in good performances to go past them and otherbiggies take each other out

 

[devilish]

I changed my mind. Its too painful to see United lose and get ridiculed.

FFS can anyone sack this idiot? He's a likeable lad but he's out of depth at United.

 

[Sarni]

I know but in a spell of 10-15 min over 2 legs can turn decisive, unlike a league campaign. Obviously it will be highly unlikely that we will get past QF even if we win decisively tonight but there will be hope. Dortmund are not in greatest of shapes at the moment for instance and we can draw them and put in good performances to go past them and otherbiggies take each other out

I'd like to think so but in 11 games against top 8 this season we got one win - and it was a very lucky one against Arsenal at home. I don't think we have it in us to beat a top side in Europe.