Shinji Kagawa

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Some decent points but i do think you can play both styles if you have one important ingrediant. a solid midfield platform. We need two strong combative cms that cover the ground from deep and get the ball quickly to the front four however they are setup.

Only fellani, jones, and a fully fit fletcher can play this role in our squad and none are top tier at it.

This is hardly a revalation I know but without it Kagawa, Mata, et al will continue to struggle.
 
Sky1981 said:
The way I see it, there are 2 groups of players in our squad:

Wing play (Traditional) united style players: Nani, Young, Valencia, Januzaj

Middle (Continental) style players: Kagawa, Mata, Januzaj?, Carrick?

These two groups can't co-exist in one squad...

...I don't believe in a veteran manager can't see what's wrong with the squad, or can't see what a good player Kagawa was, but I can see a manager that's too out of his depth to fully develop a new tactical blueprint in a short span of half a season. You can't teach an old horse new tricks and all that.

When he finally got his players, we will improve, but we will not and never achieve the level of Barca/Bayern/Arsenal, at best we will be more successful in the percentage football and get 4th, but to dominate and challenge year in year out.. I doubted it. Hence is why I never think that Moyes is the right man for the job. 4th would be his holy grail, instead of his floor buffer
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Good post that sums up the state of things/Neville's "identity crisis" quote.

Spoony said:
I've decided it's my fault he's been so underwhelming for the past two seasons. But yeah great player...
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Bastard. Might want to take your hex off Moyes, too. The poor man.
 
hungrywing said:
Good post that sums up the state of things/Neville's "identity crisis" quote.



Bastard. Might want to take your hex off Moyes, too. The poor man.
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Well if Moyes is given a billion quid to spend he may just turn it around. Same for Kagawa let's get the whole team to suit his obvious Maradona-like talent to get the best out of him. Great players thesedays eh.
 
limerickcitykid said:
He should and that's why Ashley Young doesn't have a starting place. Kagawa does have more minutes than Young. It's been said several times in this thread that Kagawa has played more than Young but it is constantly looked past. What is so hard in understanding that Kagawa has played more than Young?

Kagawa and Cleverley are not competing for the same positions so I don't know what you are mentioning Cleverley for. Why has Ferdinand played more than Kagawa?
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:lol:

I like your style. Say it enough times and eventually the penny might drop...
 
Sultan said:
You can point to most of the team not playing well, but still get games. Moyes simply does not have many options to drop these players. Kagawa plays in a position where we are overstocked. Young would have got a lot less minutes had Nani been fit. Cleverley only plays due to our lack of midfield options.
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Except that Moyes has been playing Kagawa almost exclusively on the left wing, therefore he's in direct competition with Young for a place. Likewise, Cleverley hasn't shown enough going forward or backwards to indicate that's he's a better central midfield option than Kagawa, in my opinion.

Against City we started with a midfield 3, which was correct in my opinion, but with Carrick and Fellaini in there for solidity we should've had Kagawa as the third midfielder from the start, especially considering how promising the Mata/Kagawa/Rooney combination looked against West Ham.
 
limerickcitykid said:
He should and that's why Ashley Young doesn't have a starting place. Kagawa does have more minutes than Young. It's been said several times in this thread that Kagawa has played more than Young but it is constantly looked past. What is so hard in understanding that Kagawa has played more than Young?

Kagawa and Cleverley are not competing for the same positions so I don't know what you are mentioning Cleverley for. Why has Ferdinand played more than Kagawa?
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I don't recall mentioning who'd played more. I said Kagawa hasn't played enough. Enough. As in, as much as he should based on his performances, relative to how much Young has based on his performances.
 
Sultan said:
Who do we blame last seasons underwhelming performances on?

I still believe he's a class act but has only shown it in flashes. He needs to impose himself a lot more in games. I've seen enough of Mata to know he's been a class act in a Chelsea shirt. It's too early to judge Mata as a United player.
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It's subjective. Some fans think he had an underwhelming season; some think he had a good season. I fall into the latter category, but I'm sure all of us agree on the point that he could build up on his performances from last season. IMO it's wrong to ask the question you asked because it's not like he had a disastrous season. He came into a new league under a completely different system and has had to adapt to the physicality of the league. He had shown enough for me to suggest that he would ameliorate on last season and have a successful 13/14 campaign if used correctly.

I said this to Theon at the end of last year:
Moyes doesn't know how to manager a more technical and flexible player in Nani.
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I still stick by that. What's important to note is that Kagawa isn't the only player who's "suffering" from an archaic system. Moyes has shown that when it comes to Van Persie, Kagawa, Mata, Nani, and even Januzaj to a certain extent, he doesn't know how to manage them properly. He's minimised the role of Van Persie so much so that he's not touching the ball as much and he's creating less chances. He thinks putting said players into a wing-oriented system is what's best for them. I'm not asking you to judge Mata in a Manchester United shirt. I feel that there isn't any consistency between arguments. Both have been underwhelming in the system we have used for most of the season, both are experiencing the same problems, but when we have used more variation and a modern-like system, we have played better. Of course they can be doing a bit better, but IMO the system is more of an issue.
 
The people comparing playing Young and Kagawa playing time wise are forgetting that it's a completely unfair comparison.

Young is playing in his natural position in a style of team that suits his natural game. A game he's been playing for years in a league/country he's completely familiar with.

Kagawa is playing as a traditional winger (which he isn't) on the left hand side (when he should be central) in a team that plays expansive, laboured, outdated, static football (as opposed to Japan/Dortmund playing neat interchanges and always moving, nullifying the argument that he plays on the left for those too) in a country where the league is kick and rush and extremely physical.

The conditions just aren't there for Shinji to perform as we know he can. Yes, the best players in the world can/should adapt to what they're given and perform as well as they can but it's unsurprising that he hasn't.

You can see when he's given licence to roam from the left and into the centre that he completely influences our style of play even if he's not the most obvious in what he's doing. We start threading little balls through gaps, we have options for the man on the ball because people move, we speed up our play and we become a lot less predictable but because it's not Shinji deliberately doing it all himself on the ball, people don't see it.

It's almost like the Carrick vs. Gerrard debates for England. Carrick would enable us (at least in his prime) to control the play better. Playing simple, effective passes and maintaining the tempo but because Gerrard was all-action, hollywood balling, shooting on site and digging Liverpool out of a hole, people wanted that instead. Now England have never been able to keep the ball and we've suffered because of it.
 
CapeTownRed said:
I don't recall mentioning who'd played more. I said Kagawa hasn't played enough. Enough. As in, as much as he should based on his performances, relative to how much Young has based on his performances.
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but surely he's shown enough to get more minutes than Young and Cleverley?
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Would suggest you think Young and Cleverley have got more minutes than him.

I feel like we've got double standards here. Should Ashley Young not have to earn his starting place too?
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I read that as implying Ashley Young has some sort of starting place too. Sorry if I read it wrong. I don't see how there is a double standard anyway or if anything Kagawa is let off easier. Young's thread is riddled with people just slagging him off, mainly personal criticisms which don't even make sense half of the time. Or do you mean a double standard from Moyes?
 
That assist. :drool:
 
Great assist after a quiet start. Need to get him on the ball more often.
 
After about 9 months Moyes seems to have realised Kagawa has some value...rapid.
 
I do think something seems to have clicked with Moyes and Kagawa here. He made a point of saying in the pre-match interview that Kagawa is an important player in the attack today for ball retention and creativity and with him saying a couple of weeks ago that Kagawa is going to play more often, I think this may be the first promising sign of progress in Moyes' United career for me.
 
Best player on the pitch so far. 2 assists if not for the foul. Should start Tuesday.
 
nahealai said:
Two wonderful passes cut Villa open.

Still perplexing that some United fans don't rate him. He's one of the few intelligent footballers we have at the club.
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They don't rate him because of what he has shown for us so far, myself included. I know he's a smart footballer, and a very good one at that, but his performances haven't always shown that, not nearly consistently enough.

Saying that, today he has shown his intelligence three-fold, and I am happy to see he has been the best player on the pitch. I just hope that if he does get picked for the next game to start that he doesn't regress into cowering from making those runs and passes he has been doing.
 
The ball to Mata was just sublime. At first you think it is miss hit to Rooney and no way is it getting to Mata but wait it is getting to Mata, just the perfect weight on it. I said I wanted to see more cutting edge final balls from him and he has duly delivered. Been really good today, so have Mata and Rooney. The three of them just need to get on the ball more now. Great so far, this is more of what I want to see from him.
 
Great half from Kagawa. I am worried, that Moyes would think Young was our best player.

Hopefully, he starts against Bayern. A front four of Nani, Kagawa, Welbeck and Rooney would give me confident of a win against Bayern.
 
If we sell Kagawa and keep Young on board, I'll go fecking livid. It'd be the most backwards scenario ever.
 
Best player on the field by far. I don't know if he meant that second pass, but it was a beautiful ball anyway. Moyes has to continue to play him until the end of the season.
 
Great to see him play in this role. I really think with to solid cms behind him he can open up defences and spring counters which are going to need against big teams.
 
Seems to have a very good understanding with Mata. Both intelligent players no surprises there.
 
Kagawa's apparent "malaise" stems back to Ferguson's tenure. He rarely played Kagawa, and when he did, he was shunted wide. This, coupled with the shite, mundane, pondering football we played in Ferguson's latter years, meant Kagawa was isolated, and thus, we didn't see the best of him.

I'd be amazed if Moyes doesn't see the potential in the Mata - Kagawa - Rooney triumvirate. Play Nani of Januzaj in that front front in place of Young, get one/two dynamic midfielders in and we're laughing.
 
Brwned said:
I do think something seems to have clicked with Moyes and Kagawa here. He made a point of saying in the pre-match interview that Kagawa is an important player in the attack today for ball retention and creativity and with him saying a couple of weeks ago that Kagawa is going to play more often, I think this may be the first promising sign of progress in Moyes' United career for me.
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Agree and despite a lot of people saying Kagawa is off soon, I think he'll be here for at least another season.
 
Is probably just starting to rest Valencia and welbeck...

Been great though. You can always tell how intelligent he is and how he helps with ball retention, but he's getting more confidence and making more chances. Love how he actually looks to pick out a man with his crosses, rather hen just blindly cross it like the others. He'll struggle if there aren't other intelligent players on the pitch. Alongside mata they are both brilliant.

I seriously question people's opinions if they don't think he's that good. Clearly a class player not being given fair chances.
 
nahealai said:
Kagawa's apparent "malaise" stems back to Ferguson's tenure. He rarely played Kagawa, and when he did, he was shunted wide. This, coupled with the shite, mundane, pondering football we played in Ferguson's latter years, meant Kagawa was isolated, and thus, we didn't see the best of him.

I'd be amazed if Moyes doesn't see the potential in the Mata - Kagawa - Rooney triumvirate. Play Nani of Januzaj in that front front in place of Young, get one/two dynamic midfielders in and we're laughing.
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This. Also get Rid of Valencia and Young and add a new winger as well.
 
nahealai said:
Kagawa's apparent "malaise" stems back to Ferguson's tenure. He rarely played Kagawa, and when he did, he was shunted wide. This, coupled with the shite, mundane, pondering football we played in Ferguson's latter years, meant Kagawa was isolated, and thus, we didn't see the best of him.

I'd be amazed if Moyes doesn't see the potential in the Mata - Kagawa - Rooney triumvirate. Play Nani of Januzaj in that front front in place of Young, get one/two dynamic midfielders in and we're laughing.
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This is just wrong. He played in the majority of matches he was fit to play in,
 
nahealai said:
I'd be amazed if Moyes doesn't see the potential in the Mata - Kagawa - Rooney triumvirate. Play Nani of Januzaj in that front front in place of Young, get one/two dynamic midfielders in and we're laughing.
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Agree that would be our most balanced front line, but I can't see Moyes dropping Van Persie.
 
It seems like Moyes has started to cotton on to the fact that Kagawa/Rooney/Mata on the pitch at the same time might produce good football.

Would love to see Welbeck or another speedy player to compliment them.
 
Theon said:
Agree that would be our most balanced front line, but I can't see Moyes dropping Van Persie.
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Not with Januzaj. We need SOME pace.

With regards to Kagawa, assist and pass that led to penalty. Top game.
 
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