It makes sense if he's doing okay, which he is from that position and we dont have anything better. He also wants to be here from the sounds of his agent so theres no point changing that when we have 3 wingers in Young, Valencia and Nani who have played worse and need to be ejected before we think about removing kagawa as well.
Shinji Kagawa
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It makes sense if he's doing okay, which he is from that position and we dont have anything better. He also wants to be here from the sounds of his agent so theres no point changing that when we have 3 wingers in Young, Valencia and Nani who have played worse and need to be ejected before we think about removing kagawa as well.
Oh, I guess I was not clear enough... Forgive me:
If Mata had continued to play out of position and inconsistently for 1 and half more seasons, like he did for Chelsea, and kept the same goal ratio up, then he would end up with fewer goals than Kagawa has under his 2 years for United.
Do you understand now? The moment Mata had to suffer the same way that Kagawa has, his goal return was shattered. 1 goal in 13 starts proves that. Going by that ratio, he'd have to start 78 games before scoring as much as Kagawa did in 45 starts.
Kagawa can be technically brilliant on his day, when he's playing with the right players and setup, but he's too temperamental for his own good and that's why he might not ever succeed here. Right now, I'd take Ji Sung Park and his energy and his ability to pop up with goals any day over what Kagawa has offered us.
You've raised an interesting point that has been discussed here but which warrants more attention: the poor attitude of many of the players.
I have no objection to fornication, so long as the partner consents to the act of coitus, but I do expect our players to act in a professional manner when they're on duty for the club. And off it as well.
Shinji lacks intensity for me. It's not his fitness that's in question, but his desire to contribute to what the squad needs. He'll play wherever the manager wants him to play, but he doesn't seem to adapt to what his teammates require from him.
He's a great footballer, but it's best for everyone if he moved back to Dortmund.
Suffer? What melodrama. He didn't have to though. Whenever the choice came around, two managers assessed who would be better from the middle and both chose Mata. If you think it would take more than 45 games playing in an attacking position for Mata to score 6 goals you're even more delusional than you appear. Regardless of where he played he'd still be bending free kicks in with incredibly consistency.
Delusional? He scored 1 goal in 13 starts for a better team with a better manager(this season)! And he was not looking to improve either. He was a disaster under Mourinho. And not just in terms of goals and assists either.
I love how you point out that Mata would have to rely on his freekicks to score from a wide position, and thus proving that his general play would suffer severely
Jesus, this is like pulling teeth. He'd a bad run of form. It's highly unlikely if you look at his recent history that it would've taken him 65 games to score 5 goals. Football is not a mathematical equation. You're also splitting your seasons again. You're comparing stats Kagawa mustered with last seasons champions with Mata's from this years Chelsea.Delusional? He scored 1 goal in 13 starts for a better team with a better manager(this season)! And he was not looking to improve either. He was a disaster under Mourinho. And not just in terms of goals and assists either.
I love how you point out that Mata would have to rely on his freekicks to score from a wide position, and thus proving that his general play would suffer severely
Basic comprehension has let you down. I didn't say he'd rely on it. It's further evidence of how unlikely your assertion that he would carry on the same trajectory as he did when having a poor spell was.
It's almost as unfair as comparing this season's Chelsea with this season's United. It evens itself out
You are free to believe that Mata just suddenly would have fired on all syllinders had he stayed in Chelsea. I for one, highly doubt that. There was nothing that suggested that he could continue under those terms and still return to his old form. That is why Chelsea was so willing to sell him, and Mata was so willing to leave. Think about it for a second. Why would Chelsea sell their best player on paper, if it wasn't for the fact that he didn't fit Mourinho?
Mata has played half a season under pretty much the same terms as Kagawa, and he did much worse. That's why it makes more sense for me to assume that Mata wouldn't have done well on the wing for us either.
I never did that. I compared Mata for Utd with Kagawa for Utd. Kagawa didn't come out well.It's almost as unfair as comparing this season's Chelsea with this season's United. It evens itself out
You are free to believe that Mata just suddenly would have fired on all syllinders had he stayed in Chelsea. I for one, highly doubt that. There was nothing that suggested that he could continue under those terms and still return to his old form. That is why Chelsea was so willing to sell him, and Mata was so willing to leave. Think about it for a second. Why would Chelsea sell their best player on paper, if it wasn't for the fact that he didn't fit Mourinho?
Mata has played half a season under pretty much the same terms as Kagawa, and he did much worse. That's why it makes more sense for me to assume that Mata wouldn't have done well on the wing for us either.
He hasn't. If you're making that comparison then it needs t be done against what Kagawa has done this season. Not what he did when playing for a free scoring title winning team.
This would make perfect sense if Mata had experience playing under the same terms as Kagawa for United. But he hasn't. Thus, we can look back on his Chelsea days merely half a season ago. There, he played under the same terms as Kagawa. And surprise, surprise: he was extremely limited. So much in fact, that Chelsea chose to sell him to a rival team.
He hasn't played under those terms because he's a better player. Two managers have had the opportunity to use Kagawa ahead of Mata in the middle and haven't. They had nothing to gain from not doing so if Kagawa was capable of what Mata is.
Kagawa can't impose himself in this league, it's time to accept that and move on. He can be useful..........in negotiating a swap deal with Dortmund.
So now we're changing the topic?
You said that Mata surely would play better on the wing than Kagawa has. I provide facts that suggest that he'd most likely not. You change the topic again. Jeez.
And like I said: Moyes signed Mata. Moyes didn't rate Kagawa.
And Giggs has only been in charge for a couple of games, and he's been experimenting like a mad man. And it makes no sense to change anything now anyways. The "damage" is already done. We've spent 37.5 fecking million on Mata, which is 3 times as much as Kagawa cost(who's also possibly on the way out). Mata has to play now. We can't afford not to. If Mata ends up in another bad spell like he did for Mourinho, then his market value will drop. It will be a total waste of money.
The only way Giggs would have played Kagawa in the AM role, is if he was clearly better than Mata. But he isn't. At their best, they're both roughly around the same level. But Mata is PL proven, so he gets the benefit of the doubt. That, and the fact that he cost a shitload of money.
The topic has always been the same. Mata is better than Kagawa. You have continually told us that Fergie rated Kagawa so highly and he played in 75% of the games he was available in his chosen position. So using last seasons stats under those circumstances and comparing them to Mata this season for Chelsea is stupid. You're the one continually changing tack to back up your argument. I've been quite consistent in saying Mata is better than Kagawa. Stats show it and so do my eyeballs.So now we're changing the topic?
You said that Mata surely would play better on the wing than Kagawa has. I provide facts that suggest that he'd most likely not. You change the topic again. Jeez.
And like I said: Moyes signed Mata. Moyes didn't rate Kagawa.
And Giggs has only been in charge for a couple of games, and he's been experimenting like a mad man. And it makes no sense to change anything now anyways. The "damage" is already done. We've spent 37.5 fecking million on Mata, which is 3 times as much as Kagawa cost(who's also possibly on the way out). Mata has to play now. We can't afford not to. If Mata ends up in another bad spell like he did for Mourinho, then his market value will drop. It will be a total waste of money.
The only way Giggs would have played Kagawa in the AM role, is if he was clearly better than Mata. But he isn't. At their best, they're both roughly around the same level. But Mata is PL proven, so he gets the benefit of the doubt. That, and the fact that he cost a shitload of money.
Giggs dropped Mata for his first game. Where did Kagawa play? Mata has only actually started twice under Giggs. There's two opportunities to play him in his preferred position.
@acnumber9
My argument has always been that Kagawa might not be better than Mata, but judging by their time in United overall, it's not much to seperate them. They've both been a shadow of themselves at their best. The only reason that Mata has a better goal ratio, is because he's playing consistently in his favored position. Kagawa has never been able to do this, for different reasons(injury, form, Moyes..), and thus it is extremely unfair to use the goal ratio as an argument for Mata being the superior choice. Of course Mata has a better ratio under the current terms. As would Kagawa.
Fergie retiring was the worst thing that could happen to Kagawa. Not only would he have played half the season in his favored position with RVP out. He'd also play under a better manager, who in return could have his team challenge for the title. We would never have signed Mata if Fergie had been around.
My argument has always been that Kagawa might not be better than Mata, but judging by their time in United overall, it's not much to seperate them. They've both been a shadow of themselves at their best. The only reason that Mata has a better goal ratio, is because he's playing consistently in his favored position. Kagawa has never been able to do this, for different reasons(injury, form, Moyes..), and thus it is extremely unfair to use the goal ratio as an argument for Mata being the superior choice. Of course Mata has a better ratio under the current terms. As would Kagawa.
Fergie retiring was the worst thing that could happen to Kagawa. Not only would he have played half the season in his favored position with RVP out. He'd also play under a better manager, who in return could have his team challenge for the title. We would never have signed Mata if Fergie had been around.
You've ignored the question.
How typical that the anti Kagawa faction are the super-fans who lavish pretenders like Valencia and Young with praise for being 'honest players.'
Much prefer to see us lose our overrated, mercenary Dutchman. A fluid front four of Januzaj, Mata, Kagawa, and Rooney is a very exciting possibility for next season.
One-dimensional relics like van Persie, Valencia, and Young must go.
Much prefer to see us lose our overrated, mercenary Dutchman. A fluid front four of Januzaj, Mata, Kagawa, and Rooney is a very exciting possibility for next season.
One-dimensional relics like van Persie, Valencia, and Young must go.
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Which question? The retorical one?
You ignore 90% of the things I write and change the topic every time you run out of arguments.
The one asking where Kagawa played in half of the games Mata didn't start under Giggs. There's been plenty of opportunities to play Kagawa in the middle. More than one manager has preferred others there. Don't be surprised when the next one does too.Which question? The retorical one?
You ignore 90% of the things I write and change the topic every time you run out of arguments.
I haven't run out of arguments. My argument has always been the same and every bit of material evidence backs it. Keep your head buried in the sand.
Just when you think this thread can't get worse.
I'd also prefer Mata over Kagawa if I had both at my disposal. That has never been the source of our argument. I merely think that Kagawa would have been able to perform as well as Mata has been doing for us so far, if he was given the same benefits. The reason we signed Mata, is because Moyes didn't rate Kagawa. Simple as that. We would never have signed Mata if Fergie was still in charge.
Kind of funny that Mad Winger has to keep this up. Actually, kind of regrettable.
Bottom line, Kagawa's an excellent player and a good manager will be able to use him well. No less than SAF was clearly and methodically developing his role/prominence in the team last year.
Amongst people who know what they're doing, the only debate would be about the system/situations to deploy him in. I think we could use him like SAF used Park: in Europe/against the 'big' teams but on average a non-factor against the bulk of PL teams.
Bottom line, Kagawa's an excellent player and a good manager will be able to use him well. No less than SAF was clearly and methodically developing his role/prominence in the team last year.
Amongst people who know what they're doing, the only debate would be about the system/situations to deploy him in. I think we could use him like SAF used Park: in Europe/against the 'big' teams but on average a non-factor against the bulk of PL teams.
It's always been the source of my argument. We have better players in his best position and he hasn't done enough out wide. He's dispensable.
I'm not sold on that logic.
Shinji is simply ineffective wide left. Not terrible, you'd never dream of playing through him out there. Nani has been shite for two years but if still go with Nani out left than Shinji.
Why not solve the problem by acquiring a genuine left midfielder?
If Shinji is happy to be on the squad then let's use him in his best position when Roo or Mata are out. Seems like a reasonable solution.
Acquiring Kagawa two tears ago made sense. But we'd never dream of going for him after we picked up Mata.
Better to cut bait.
I did call it earlier in the season. He does seem a really gormless player especially in the final third. Does pretty things but can't make the difference when we need him.
I may have gone over the top but in my defense this post was after one of our crap performances during the new year period. Don't ask me which one, because I'm not going to try and remember anything about this season.
Patronising horseshit.
Unless, perhaps, you could expand on your own footballing pedigree and why it helps you see things the rest of us don't?
What's the highest level you've coached/played at?
James Wilson: 61 minutes = 2 goals.
Kagawa 1165 minutes = No goals.
*Runs away*
Kagawa 1165 minutes = No goals.
*Runs away*
Football, zero. Organizations with a lot of type-A personalities and all the unique foibles that arise, quite a bit.
What SAF was quite clearly doing with Kagawa is textbook executive-grooming stuff. Personally I agree with the he doesn't quite fit us crowd.
Fair enough but why so adamant that people who think he might not be cut out for PL football don't know what they're talking about?
Surely you appreciate that there's lots of talented footballers who thrive in one league yet flop in a different one. Why is it out of the question that this applies to Kagawa?
you big fat WUM
I hope we keep Kagawa, he can be a real asset to us. We need players of his class. He has had a rough 2 seasons with us, a mixture of good and below par performances. Some of the bad performances he can take responsibility, some of them were not his fault. Form is temporary and class is permanent. Kagawa is class and if the next manager changes how we play to the sort of football we all want Kagawa will be a player who will benefit.
Its not really worked out for him and don't see it improving unless he is instated as the main no 10 under the new boss.
I would send him on loan to BVB with the option of first dibs on Reus, or just to get him in the shop window. He has the potential to be a 20m+ player, if we sold him in the summer, knowing us we will probably only get 5m for him.
I would send him on loan to BVB with the option of first dibs on Reus, or just to get him in the shop window. He has the potential to be a 20m+ player, if we sold him in the summer, knowing us we will probably only get 5m for him.
FFS Mad Winger all these talks about stats is bullshit.
Mata is the better player. I don't need assists goals or anything to know that I need to watch the game. Just use my eyes objectively.
I met Kagawa last year in Deansgate Revs. Bought him a drink. He seemed shy and didn't really drink anything.
Mata is the better player. I don't need assists goals or anything to know that I need to watch the game. Just use my eyes objectively.
I met Kagawa last year in Deansgate Revs. Bought him a drink. He seemed shy and didn't really drink anything.
What an embarrassing post. Good for you on pointing it out without feeling shame. That's quite a skill.The funny thing is, I'm still further towards the keep Kagawa camp than the get rid one. There's a lot of things I like about him as a footballer and I really hope that when the rest of their team get their shit together he'll go up another level.
What really gets on my tits, though, is the constant efforts to blame everyone for his less than stellar United career to date apart from Shinji Kagawa himself. That and the steadfast denial that he's been anything other than very good in his PL career so far. He clearly needs to up his feckin game. And has nobody to blame for this but himself. The potential is obvious though.
Basically, if I put Mental Winger (and a few others) on ignore I'd spend a lot less time feeling the need to slag Kagawa off.
Note to self...
What really gets on my tits, though, is the constant efforts to blame everyone for his less than stellar United career to date apart from Shinji Kagawa himself. That and the steadfast denial that he's been anything other than very good in his PL career so far. He clearly needs to up his feckin game. And has nobody to blame for this but himself. The potential is obvious though.
Basically, if I put Mental Winger (and a few others) on ignore I'd spend a lot less time feeling the need to slag Kagawa off.
Note to self...
So now we're changing the topic?
You said that Mata surely would play better on the wing than Kagawa has. I provide facts that suggest that he'd most likely not. You change the topic again. Jeez.
I don't disagree with you entirely, as I think Kagawa is a good player when used right. But it is almost a certainty that Mata is a better wing player than Kagawa, given that he played off the right and left for years at Valencia and did really well.
He might be straight or maybe he just wasn't that into you.
Nonetheless, he is 3rd choice in the only position that he excels in and he doesn't bring enough to the team in other positions to warrant keeping him. It would be better for all parties for him to leave.
the answer to everything will be found in the question "Why is he ineffective wide left?"
The sick thing is that some of the anti-Kagawa people would be willing to use this argument
Give over with your van Persie propaganda...no one has picked up on it enough to catch on
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