Shinji Kagawa
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik (@Rood) is joined by CEO Duncan Drasdo and Financial Director Andy Green from the Manchester United Supporters Trust for a special episode on all things behind the scenes at Old Trafford including a brief history of MUST and their aims today, views on INEOS and Sir Jim Ratcliffe so far, and the Old Trafford regeneration.
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It is what LVG desires from his wingers. He wants them both to stay out wide until they have the ball at their feet then they should challenge their full-back and start moving. So that the field is always stretched, which is why Ribery who likes to participate everywhere suffered under LVG and disliked him a lot.
Kagawa won't play as a winger under LVG that I am almost certain of, if he does it is quite spectacular as LVG would have changed his core philosophies to fit in Kagawa which he hasn't done before.
I believe Kagawa has to develop as a CM, that is his only chance to play as a starter as Mata is the better player for the AM role. Kagawa and Mata in the Xavi/Iniesta role would assure us dominated possession against nearly all sides in the world and they are creative enough to turn possession in to chances.
We'd then just need a physical DM who is used to the pressing game and we would have a competing midfield costing 20-30 millions rather than buying two complete CM's who can dominate possession and do it all for 35-50 million each.
Of course at the end of the day it will depend on who is available in the market as well, if we find a complete CM on the cheap then the chances are we will look for another one.
I've only seen Mata for Chelsea and us, but judging from what I've seen, he isn't a better dribbler(or a winger for that matter) than Kagawa. He's sort of the same type, in the sense that he needs the element of surprise/unpredictability to run past defenders. It might have worked out OK with La Liga defenses when he was younger, but it hasn't worked well for him in the PL. At least I can't remember seeing him taking on PL defenders one-on-one when they knew he was coming.
We only have 2 good dribblers: Nani and Januzaj. The former is inconsistent and injury-prone. The latter is a kid who might very well get "second season syndrome". If Van Gaal wants to play his football, then we need to sign wingers as well.
I've wanted to see us try this ever since we signed Mata. It has world class written all over it.
Xavi and Iniesta. The similarity is so obvious...So who would play the Xavi role and who the Iniesta one out of Mata and Kagawa?
And while we are at it, are there any Busquets in our squad?
Seriously, Xavi and Iniesta are on a different level at keeping the ball, controlling the game and creating chances. They are not the equivalent of almost anyone, they are completely different players to Mata and Kagawa and I don't just mean quality wise.
And while I do rate Kagawa, Mata is the much better player.
And while we are at it, are there any Busquets in our squad?
Seriously, Xavi and Iniesta are on a different level at keeping the ball, controlling the game and creating chances. They are not the equivalent of almost anyone, they are completely different players to Mata and Kagawa and I don't just mean quality wise.
And while I do rate Kagawa, Mata is the much better player.
The Kagawa ultras have officially lost their marbles.
----- DM -----
Mata - Kagawa
RW - RVP - LW
With the right signings and a manager who actually encourages the team to push high up the field and primarily attack, this is potentially a world class setup.
Mata - Kagawa
RW - RVP - LW
With the right signings and a manager who actually encourages the team to push high up the field and primarily attack, this is potentially a world class setup.
Kagawa has won as many FA Cups as the two of them combined.
I'll be honest, I'm struggling now...
Kagawa already was used as a CM by Giggs and he failed miserably. He can't hold the ball effectively and losses it a lot of times. Xavi while being diminutive actually is a pretty strong player. Like Scholes was. Kagawa on the other hand is very weak. Also he really fails to create anything from a deep role, his playmaking skills are not exactly good, as his vision.
He worked in Dortmund because he was shadow striker really, i watched them play, an he was not your typical AM, like Mata for example. So he was actually more advanced (closer to opponents goal) than Mata were at Chelsea.
In a way he was like a Mueller, they do have different skill stets, but when Mueller played second striker in Munich, that was sort of similar what Kagawa have been doing for Dortmund. That's why holding to the ball was never an issue, more often he got a ball on the speedy counter-breaks and there was no need to think of a clever pass like Xavi does, Dortmund attacks were pretty vertical and straight-forward.
I do love all these Kagawa videos showing us how awesome he's been.
I've found a brilliant one which perfectly sums up his career at United.
It's here -
I've found a brilliant one which perfectly sums up his career at United.
It's here -
Considering LVG having turned three wingers to world-class CM's in Schweinsteiger/Davids/Seedorf it wouldn't be odd if he did it with Mata and Kagawa as well. Nothing I would expect of course, like I said everything depends on who is available of the players LVG has said he wants. As LVG uses a high press, Mata and Kagawa can hopefully perform better defensively than under Moyes and Fergie.
Their style is indeed similar. Nobody is comparing the level of their abilities.
They're both a tiny bit like Iniesta, I suppose, only not as good.
No idea who is supposed to bring all Xavi's attributes to the party in this fantasy. Neither of our two come close.
No idea who is supposed to bring all Xavi's attributes to the party in this fantasy. Neither of our two come close.
I'm sorry so how does making reference to a players role somehow convert into comparing the players directly in your head? You may not agree with him but at least take it as it is.
Their roles are as dissimilar as their abilities. As per my previous post.
Playing Kagawa and Mata in CM with only one DM behind them would be defensive suicide.
Who's to say that they need to be exactly like Xavi? The only reason this would make sense, is if we planned to play like Barcelona. I think that under Van Gaal's more direct style, players like Mata and Kagawa could thrive in a sort of Xavi/Iniesta-esque partnership, in the sense that they're both small, technical players who play with their heads, rather than with their physique. We might not get Xavi's insane passes, but I think we'll have more overlapping runs and defenders being pulled out of position.
But obviously, this style requires quick, technical wingers as well. I think we can count on Januzaj being up for the challenge, but it would be nice with an additional winger.
Actually, that's a fair point.
Weren't they all a good bit younger at the time though? Inclined to think Mata and Kagawa are a bit long in the tooth to learn an entirely new position.
If anything, he might be more likely to convert Januzaj.
The difference between no.10 and advanced CM in a 4-3-3 is extremely small. You're only slightly further down the pitch, and you need to cover for your buddy when he bursts forward. But other than that, it's essentially the same thing.
Kagawa started his career as a defensive midfielder, and he's actually pretty decent at intercepting the ball. What he lacks, is physical presence, aggression and strength. Hopefully the DM will take care of that job..
I'm not sure. I think the three players you mentioned are far better physically than Mata and Kagawa. Mata particularly is slow and not especially suited to it, IMO. I'd prefer Van Gaal adapted his formation to something that suited the two of them better rather than try to make them something I'm not convinced they're suited to being.
No it is not. While he is known for his ball control and passing his defensive work is outstanding, he is physically strong and he had endless stamina(him losing that stamina is the reason for his relative decline the last two seasons) And you bring up Davids, Schweini and Seedrof all of those players have pace, are physically strong and had/have great engines. Kagawa has none of those qualities.
Schweinsteiger were the same age. The list is much longer on players LVG changed roles of though, those three are just especially relevant as they reached an incredible level they never would have done as wingers.
Also I agree neither brings the attributes of Xavi in his peak, his range of passing is something neither of Kagawa/Mata has. I was more referring to the slightly aged Xavi who stuck to short-passes and movement. I think the peak Xavi also had a better mobility than our pairing has so in that regard as well the slightly older one is who I think they are similar to.
I thought Schweinsteiger had fairly average pace?
Kagawa has the best engine in the team, and the best engine since Beckham so...
In all fairness while LVG has changed the roles of players, comparing Mata and Kagawa to Xavi/Iniesta has me hoping Young/Valencia can emulate Ribery/Robben. 
We have to be talking about completely different things.
I always thought engine = stamina?
Like I said LVG isn't limited to converting those three players, he has done it with an awful lots of players over his career. Everything from turning midfielders to full-backs to turning a second striker like Davids to a midfielder.
One of his greatest assets as a manager is his ability to convert players to new roles and making it work. I don't expect anything like I said, I believe LVG prefers to play 4-2-3-1 for United but that relies on us signing two absolute world-class central midfielders.
If we don't sign them LVG will be looking to the squad and try to do the best of the situation which I think is signing a world-class DM then playing Kagawa and Mata slightly in front of them. If it doesn't work he can without a signing just play the new DM with Fletcher and Mata in front and bench Kagawa - then buy a new midfielder in the January window.
If we don't spend the money on two world-class CM's we would of course have money to invest in the other positions instead like a world-class winger and full-back.
Are we still talking about the same Shinji Kagawa who rarely last 90 minutes and has been visibly exhausted in the closing minutes of all his recent appearances?
Only I can't really correlate that with the bloke who allegedly has the best stamina of any United player since David Beckham...
This thread can get so surreal...
Only I can't really correlate that with the bloke who allegedly has the best stamina of any United player since David Beckham...
This thread can get so surreal...
Do you really think Kagawa has the best stamina in the club since Beckham? Especially since we had iron lungs Park Ji Sung at the club?
Stats from United.no has also showed that Kagawa covers the most ground during a game.
A link like that about a transfer rumour would be laughed out of town, so unreliable is the source and so lacking in quotes is the article.
I think I'll file it alongside the "Bundesliga player of the season" award.
It's really not hard to see that Kagawa's stamina is actually on great level, he never seems exhausted, and he never stops running(coming from a person who thinks he should be a squad player). Him being exhausted in later minutes is another one caf's myth. Also it's not hard to check how much he covers on UEFA's site from our CL games, I am sure you would be surprised Pogue.
Well, stats have also proved that Kagawa is the player that covers the most ground in the team.
And Kagawa's coach in Japan stated that Kagawa's greatest strength is his engine. And Japanese football players generally have insane stamina(they were the team that ran the most last World Cup), so if he was able to stand out in that way, then I think that speaks volumes.
Ran the most in the Bundesliga in his first half season with Dortmund, apparently. 12.36 km per game http://bleacherreport.com/articles/...rtmund-but-is-struggling-at-manchester-united
So, it's probably not unlikely that he's one of the players in our squad that's covering the most ground. I reckon that Dortmund team runs a fair bit more than United does.
So, it's probably not unlikely that he's one of the players in our squad that's covering the most ground. I reckon that Dortmund team runs a fair bit more than United does.
They definitely do. That's one of the "secrets" to their success. To play counter-attacking football at that speed, with so many passing options and players joining in on the attacks, stamina is crucial. No other team in this year's Champions League ran as much as Dortmund. If I'm not mistaken, the team average for Dortmund was 12 km per outfield player. That is actually insane.
For me Kagawa just needs to get comfortable in his positioning to be a good CM so he can take the intensity he brings as an offensive player in the defensive work as well. Under Giggs he seemed to be more fussed with thinking out which positioning was correct all the time - than actually playing football. Not too odd as he hasn't had many weeks to try and learn a new position and it takes months at a very minimum or even a year to shine completely in.
As a LW/AM he shows that he has intensity and a burst in him so if he used it for his defensive work then he'd already be doing his job defensively. Especially as a 4-3-3 under LVG would include pressing - which means we'd rely on mobility and stamina much more than strength and tackling. Kagawa is going to be our best player with Mata if we switch to a pressing defense as they both have experience in it.
He has an awful lots of tackles/interceptions in the roles he is comfortable with and I think only Valencia has better statistics in regards to that than Kagawa.
As a LW/AM he shows that he has intensity and a burst in him so if he used it for his defensive work then he'd already be doing his job defensively. Especially as a 4-3-3 under LVG would include pressing - which means we'd rely on mobility and stamina much more than strength and tackling. Kagawa is going to be our best player with Mata if we switch to a pressing defense as they both have experience in it.
He has an awful lots of tackles/interceptions in the roles he is comfortable with and I think only Valencia has better statistics in regards to that than Kagawa.
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You lot putting Kagawa and Mata as two of the three midfielders are crazy. It doesn't work in theory and even Giggs tried it in the first half against Southampton and we got slaughtered in terms of possession. If Kagawa stays, I see him as a backup to Mata rather than starting ahead or alongside him on a regular basis.
The difference was the limited amount of time to prepare they had and which style of defending was used. Under LVG we will see pressing rather than folding back as far as possible and trying to win the ball back through positioning, strength and tackling.
I don't think anybody is discussing this as the ideal outcome of the summer, just an option if those complete CM's chooses another club address which is a reasonable outcome probably more likely than us signing them.
Distance covered stats are not always the best measures for a player's workrate or stamina. Berbatov use to have some of the best distance covered stats in the league.
Well, Kagawa covers the most ground, sources say that he's got the best BEEP test scores since Beckham in 2003, and Kagawa's coach in Japan said that Kagawa's greatest strength is his constant movement(he used those exact words). If this doesn't prove that Kagawa has an excellent engine, then it don't know what will.
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