Shinji Kagawa
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik (@Rood) is joined by CEO Duncan Drasdo and Financial Director Andy Green from the Manchester United Supporters Trust for a special episode on all things behind the scenes at Old Trafford including a brief history of MUST and their aims today, views on INEOS and Sir Jim Ratcliffe so far, and the Old Trafford regeneration.
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The Zlatan begs to differ.
Zlatan is my favourite player in the world, but no.
Nope.
Touche!
Indeed.
Taking risks, playing with confidence, if LVG can get this Kagawa we will be on to a winner.
Kagawa was really good against Bayern. What did we do differently against them that made him play better? If we can have that Kagawa playing every week, we'd have a player verging on world class.
As of now, I don't think he has done enough good at United.
As of now, I don't think he has done enough good at United.
Pfft. You know what I mean.
He actually tried to assert himself on the game. I don't think its a coincidence, the 2 best games he had were when he played against German teams in Germany.
His confidence / swagger seem's to leave him a bit but when he really feels like it he can be a great great player. I just hope we see it more consistently.
You also notice how fluid the build up play is in that Japanese team. It suits Kagawa so much more.
Its quick tempo that seems to suit him. He does not suit slow paced football, we've seen that. When he links with Mata or Januzaj you see the quick passes but then they stop when they realise nobody else is making any effort whatsoever in movement.
Agreed, it'll be something LVG will bring as well.
Good comment, only thing I have to add is that Dort is more of a high preassure, but not so much posession based (as far as I know). Playing mostly on explosive counters, but with emphasis on movement/being available, which As I see it, makes pace and stamina very important. However that is just a minor addition to your post
@Mad Winger Kagawa seems to lack bravery in the sense of taking someone on the dribble but if he gets on the ball in good areas he will keep trying to make things happen. So in that sense he shows bravery. It's just in an unconventional way than most think of.
I dont see Kagawa as a player that will inject pace into the game unless the movement from his teammates is there. Januzaj is happy to take his marker on and invariably injects some urgency into the game when he beats his man because now his teammates have to move to receive the pass. One of the fundamental differences in how these two players approach the game. Neither approach is better than the other so to speak, it's a matter of suitability
I dont see Kagawa as a player that will inject pace into the game unless the movement from his teammates is there. Januzaj is happy to take his marker on and invariably injects some urgency into the game when he beats his man because now his teammates have to move to receive the pass. One of the fundamental differences in how these two players approach the game. Neither approach is better than the other so to speak, it's a matter of suitability
How come Kagawa always looks good on the left with Japan but shite out there for us despite us having far superior players?
Style of play, pace of play, movement in attack.
You'll see the difference once LVG takes effect.
Funny thing is, people keep saying that Kagawa can't show his talents in United, because he is used on the wrong position. But whenever i watch Japans' games, even highlight clips, he always, always seems to be playing on the left. Exactly where he predominately deployed by United.
So i am thinking that as sad as it is, Kagawa is just not suited to play in PL. And that's the reason why is european matches he actually looks better, than in domestic ones.
So i am thinking that as sad as it is, Kagawa is just not suited to play in PL. And that's the reason why is european matches he actually looks better, than in domestic ones.
He played there under Fergie as well, when everything was fine with our pace and movement in attack. Yet Kagawa rarely impressed.
Opening season in a new league and culture for which he was injured for a large part and actually forced his way into the starting XI for a manager who typically wants traditional wingers. Not amazing, not shocking.
AFAIK he lines up wide left for them with Honda as the no. 10. Which is why I posed the question I did.
Apparently playing on the left for Japan is in no way similar to playing on the left for United. Or something.
Not convinced by that argument myself but I guess we'll see if it's true or not this season. If Kagawa can't make it in LVG's system then there is really no hope for him here.
Not true. For example, Rooney played on the left a lot for United. Fergie was always flexible with that.
I see all that as a simply excuses really. I mean first it's playing style, then it's "opening season in a new league". Then what? Short on confidence due to the bad two years?
I really don't think United has any use for a good player, that just can't perform for United. Forlan was a good player, but he could not play his game here. I see Kagawa's first season, many players do much better in the first years, Cazorla for example. Actually there are tons of them. It's not like he was injured for a half of year, more like 2-3 months, that actually an average period to be out for. A lot players get this sort of injuries all the time, does not affect performances really.
Well, lets see of course. I think that is somewhat nonsensical argument, obviously there is no way that United will be set up as a japanese national team, mad to think otherwise.
It's actually astounding that people still manage to forget this.
And the worst thing is that Kagawa was in no way bad that season. He was hands down our best winger, despite playing in a new league, in a new system, while injured 30% of the time.
Start watching Japan regularly, and you'll see that United over the last few years and Japan has nothing in common. Japan play with high pressure, lots of off-the-ball movement and quick one-two's.
It really isn't. I don't know why some desperately try to downplay this (not saying you're doing this). And that isn't to say Kagawa shouldn't be doing better. Anyway, Japan play with a more expansive system. It's the complete opposite of how we play. Kagawa did, however, show more than enough towards the end of the season when he was given consistent game time, and he played well/very well on the left against West Ham, Newcastle, Bayern Munich, and Norwich.
I think it's astounding that people regard two and half month injury as an excuse for an average season. I think it's pathetic even, especially considering that some good players were actually unlucky with serious injuries like Ramsey and others.
Instead of saying anything rather than first understand how a team that's fully drilled with modern football principles plays (no shit called Zombie Football), have a look at this:
Enjoy this full second half while it's available on Youtube.
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No one is blaming Kagawa's injuries alone. It's a combination of many things.
1. New league
2. New system
3. Injuries(he missed 17 games in the PL and CL)
Despite this, he was still our best winger by far.
Focusing on the year under Moyes is pointless. We might as well retire Carrick, sell RVP and our entire defense then.
All this "many things" are as well very much debatable. A lot of players do well in new league in their first year, out of those who are somewhat impaired, most never settle. So clearly changing league is not that bid of a deal if you are changing between top leagues. Yes, you can have slightly worse season, but that's about it. Check all the success stories, most of them hit it of from day one.
He actually missed 3 games in CL and 11 in PL. The rest he was benched, not used etc.
"New system" is completely mad argument, you can basically say it happens in every transfer. Moreover one could argue that even it happens with most teams every year. So basically every player experiencing system changes a lot.
You mean when there was a massive thread on the Caf titled "Zombie football?" Do tell
Well, if it's on CAF, must be true.
So are you saying we played good football in Fergie's final year?Well, if it's on CAF, must be true.
From attacking point of view it was surely better than in early 2000s when we were in decline or even in 2009, when we played extremely tight in the back, but very drought going forward.
Our football in SAF's final season was awful to watch at times but we kept grinding out results and RVP's brilliance up front made the difference.
When Kagawa is playing for Japan the tempo of the game is a lot quicker compared to his 2 seasons here. There's so many options for Kagawa when he plays out wide for Japan due to the forward runs the midfielders make which compliments Kagawa's fantastic one touch game. Dortmund play a fast paced counter-attacking game which also suited Kagawa hence his success in the Bundesliga.
Under Van Gaal I'm pretty confident the more fluid United will return and we may well see the best of Kagawa again.
When Kagawa is playing for Japan the tempo of the game is a lot quicker compared to his 2 seasons here. There's so many options for Kagawa when he plays out wide for Japan due to the forward runs the midfielders make which compliments Kagawa's fantastic one touch game. Dortmund play a fast paced counter-attacking game which also suited Kagawa hence his success in the Bundesliga.
Under Van Gaal I'm pretty confident the more fluid United will return and we may well see the best of Kagawa again.
I disagree that Kagawa is not suited to BPL. The reason, to me, is that United played a different system that doesn't make the most of his abilities. But it would be hard for SAF to change United's system for the sake of Kagawa alone. Therefore, LvG coming in would be a good opportunity for him to blossom, if LvG decides to use a more suitable system.
While I can understand why you made your previous post, I cannot understand why you made your subsequent posts.
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Do you really believe that football is as simple as plug and play? Like USB devices?
Do you believe that players should be able to be plugged in and play like they played elsewhere? Automatically every time?
If you don't then why do you persistently dismiss the new league, new system, new position and new team arguments?
There are so many variables that could go wrong. Simple things like keeping smaller spaces between players or playing at a higher tempo make a lot of difference to the style of play.
Attacking football can come in many, many different styles. No it is not just a simple 3 step setting of "Attacking", "Balanced", "Defensive". This isn't FM. This is real life.
As I said earlier, the system of play that is used and the way the players is used in that system affects everything.
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Do you believe that all players who transfer should hit the ground running? Are all players who fail to make a significant impact in their first season doomed to failure?
If No, then why do you slate Kagawa for not hitting the ground running? Why do you assume he is doomed to fail?
If Yes, then what about the tons of players who were poor in their first season but blossomed later? Evra and Vidic ring any bells?
Just because you can name one player who changed position or changed team and did well immediately, it doesn't mean every other player should or would.
And it's not like Kagawa was shit in his first season playing a different position from Dortmund in a different system from both Japan and Dortmund in a new league that plays more physical and fast paced football. Kagawa was actually decent in his first season. Last season can't really be used as a benchmark because half the team was poor and Kagawa hardly got a chance to play.
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Is it unreasonable to expect a player who comes back from injury to need some games to play back into form?
If No, then why slate him if he had a few injuries and didn't light up Old Trafford?
If Yes, then I guess you must really love Rooney who needs some games to get back on form every time he comes back from injury?
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Summary
Football is a game of many variables that can totally change the performances of players and the outcome of any game. To simply dismiss these variables as "excuses" or "mad arguments" for the sake of advancing your own argument that Kagawa is not suitable for BPL would be disingenuous. Especially when you've hardly put in any facts to support your arguments other than Player A can do it why can't Kagawa?
On the contrary, it's 50/50 in terms of the successful people that hit the ground running and the successful people that don't. Hazard, Oscar, Mata, Nasri, etc. may have hit the ground running. However, there have also been the likes of Silva, Modric, Zabaleta, Evra, Vidic, etc. who take a season or so to get going. Then, there are the likes of Arshavin, van der Vaart, and Vela who make instant impacts but fail to establish themselves.
Kagawa, so far, is following a similar progression to that of Silva and Modric (Moyes' season is an anomaly, to me). I believe he can start to do well in this league and for us under van Gaal. We'll just have to see whether that's actually the case.
In Silva's first season he was City's player of the month in October, November and December.
IIRC, Silva faded in the second half of his first two seasons.
*sigh* are we really revisiting the Shinji on the left debate? It's clear why he does better there for japan than United last season. If you looked at how he played for Japan, you would realise he doesnt actually spend a lot of time on the left hand side. He spends just as much time drifting to the center or even going to the opposite flank. It's not uncommon for the LB to be left isolated because Kagawa drifts in so much.
His approach play on the left is largely the same as we saw with United but with Japan, it's a different system focused on triangles and combination play through the middle. Plus, Kagawa is given the ball a lot more often. At United, there were times where he tried to make himself available and just didnt get the ball. Kagawa is given license to roam as Endo, Honda and himself are the chief creators for Japan. It's not like he's being instructed to hug the touchline. If Moyes viewed Kagawa as one of our main creators I think he would have received the ball in dangerous areas more often than he did last season. This isn't excusing some of Kagawa's limp displays. Just explaining how the difference in systems can change a lot in terms of a player's effectiveness.
Watching his performance against Costa Rica, I wouldn't say it was anything special. It actually reminded me of some of his decent displays for United but as the game went on, spaces started to open up and Shinji was given the ball in spaces where he could exploit these gaps and he came alive towards the end and helped Japan score another goal as well as supplying a cute finish to score as well.
Excuse my irritation, but we've been over this Shinji on the left thing for god knows how long.
His approach play on the left is largely the same as we saw with United but with Japan, it's a different system focused on triangles and combination play through the middle. Plus, Kagawa is given the ball a lot more often. At United, there were times where he tried to make himself available and just didnt get the ball. Kagawa is given license to roam as Endo, Honda and himself are the chief creators for Japan. It's not like he's being instructed to hug the touchline. If Moyes viewed Kagawa as one of our main creators I think he would have received the ball in dangerous areas more often than he did last season. This isn't excusing some of Kagawa's limp displays. Just explaining how the difference in systems can change a lot in terms of a player's effectiveness.
Watching his performance against Costa Rica, I wouldn't say it was anything special. It actually reminded me of some of his decent displays for United but as the game went on, spaces started to open up and Shinji was given the ball in spaces where he could exploit these gaps and he came alive towards the end and helped Japan score another goal as well as supplying a cute finish to score as well.
Excuse my irritation, but we've been over this Shinji on the left thing for god knows how long.
We were still static under Fergie. Weren't actually very good for vast seathes of his last season
Most of it due to a bad play by our creative players in midfield, Kagawa included. But we did okay, as i've said United won league title witha much worse attacking play. But better players.
I think the main reason Kagawa looks much better in Japan national team is a level of opposition. You just need to look at Japan's group in qualification. Also PL is much more athletic and faster than international football. For Japan i reckon Kagawa just has a much more time on the ball to show his creativity, for United in BPL he lacks pace and because of than he lacks decisiveness, he looses ball far too much, and when he receives it, he often goes for safe option, instead of creative/risky.
The one thing evident both in last season and current one, is that Kagawa actually plays more in Europe and plays better in CL. Exactly because european football is less pacy and with a more focus on possession, composure.
The one thing evident both in last season and current one, is that Kagawa actually plays more in Europe and plays better in CL. Exactly because european football is less pacy and with a more focus on possession, composure.
In the last year, Japan has played against: Brazil, Italy, Holland, Belgium, Uruguay and Ghana. Is Japan's average opponent really weaker than the average PL team?
I see that you bring up the physicality of the PL, but many German posters and Bundsliga watchers in here have been adamant about the fact that the tempo and and physicality of the Bundesliga, is on the same level as the PL. The difference between the PL and Bundesliga is this: the PL has a weaker top level, but a higher average level.
Anyone should at this stage be able to see that Kagawa hasn't been a big success(but decent none the less) for one simple reason: he struggles to play for a team with static and predictable football, that relies heavily on individual brilliance from its strikers(and ideally wingers). Fergie was gradually trying to move away from this setup(which is why he signed Kagawa to begin with). Then he retired before he could finish his project, and then Moyes came along and ruined everything.
Van Gaal has a big challenge ahead of him now. He neeeds to convert our football. Many of our current players will have to get used to a brand of football that they're not used to at all. I remember Kagawa critics in here sarcastically saying that we can't change our style only to fit Kagawa. Ironically, we'll change to exactly this style under Van Gaal. It's not to fit in Kagawa, but I'll take it.
At the end of the day: if Kagawa plays well, so does the team. "Kagawa football" is good football. Dortmund and Japan are exhibit A and B. And if we look at our best performances over the last 2 seasons, then more often than not Kagawa has been on the field, often being a key player.
Has he won the Ballon D'or yet?
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