Only a EPL winners medal yet
Shinji Kagawa
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik (@Rood) is joined by CEO Duncan Drasdo and Financial Director Andy Green from the Manchester United Supporters Trust for a special episode on all things behind the scenes at Old Trafford including a brief history of MUST and their aims today, views on INEOS and Sir Jim Ratcliffe so far, and the Old Trafford regeneration.
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It's bizarre how overrated this guy is by many and reflects just how much dross we have in our team. He has done nothing and at any other big club would be long sold.
Kagawa has had 2 average seasons, but he has never had a season where he has been as the central no10, the position he was so good at playing for Dortmund.
If we keep Kagawa he should be back up to Mata as no10 and every game we either play Mata or Kagawa, never both. Never play Kagawa or Mata LM/RM, only as no10 or on the bench.
Or we sell Kagawa, maybe back to Dortmund and put the funds towards a top quality CM
If we keep Kagawa he should be back up to Mata as no10 and every game we either play Mata or Kagawa, never both. Never play Kagawa or Mata LM/RM, only as no10 or on the bench.
Or we sell Kagawa, maybe back to Dortmund and put the funds towards a top quality CM
It's hard for players to be consistent when they don't get a consistent run in the team. I can't remember when it was in the season, or how many games he was given but he played a good couple of matches in a row and then was effectively frozen out for a month.
If Kagawa played 12-15 consecutive games as LM, then his overall performance over those 12-15 games would be nothing special I don't think because he is unsuited to playing that position. If however, he had 12-15 consecutive games as no10, there is a very real chance his overall performance would be very good.
12-15 games LM I reckon 6.8-7.2 type of performance. 12-15 games no10 I reckon 7.2-7.6 is possible.
If he goes back to Dortmund he will shine, if he went to Madrid he'd be Ozil level good. This is a guy who will not perform unless he has willing runners who are quick. At United he doesn't have that, and he doesn't have the passing range of Rooney nor the vision of Mata to play in our slower system. He is incredibly quick footed and agile, a team like Dortmund, Madrid or even Chelsea is where he needs to go because as soon as they've got the ball back, you can expect Ronaldo/Bale/Reus/Willian and co to have cocks in hand flying up the pitch. Watch the highlights of Kagawa and Dortmund and nearly every single clip involves Dortmund running full tilt toward the opposition.
Then watch his United highlights and you'll see his goals are mostly easy tap-ins and his assists come from the flanks.
If you ask me, the level he's at now is probably the best we're going to get out of him unless LVG gets us playing incredibly quick football and by that I don't mean 58 passes in 23 seconds on the edge of the oppositions penalty box whilst they have 10 men sat in there.
Then watch his United highlights and you'll see his goals are mostly easy tap-ins and his assists come from the flanks.
If you ask me, the level he's at now is probably the best we're going to get out of him unless LVG gets us playing incredibly quick football and by that I don't mean 58 passes in 23 seconds on the edge of the oppositions penalty box whilst they have 10 men sat in there.
Manchester United are supposed to be good at counters.
Valencia, my son. If Valencia got his arse into gear, I'm sure we'd actually start countering a lot more instead of just recovering the ball then hoofing it or letting Carrick mess around with it. I mean, imagine busting a gut 100x a game running up the pitch to hopefully get on the end of Valencia's ball and seeing it harmlessly hit the oppositions legs? I'd probably stop giving it to him in that situation.
Valencia, my son. If Valencia got his arse into gear, I'm sure we'd actually start countering a lot more instead of just recovering the ball then hoofing it or letting Carrick mess around with it. I mean, imagine busting a gut 100x a game running up the pitch to hopefully get on the end of Valencia's ball and seeing it harmlessly hit the oppositions legs? I'd probably stop giving it to him in that situation.
Sad thing is Valencia actually looked half decent against England. Our squad needs some cheering up. Come on van Gaal!
We haven't been a good counter attacking team since we won the champions league last pretty much. Coincidentally the last time our midfield was at the required level of a club like united...Manchester United are supposed to be good at counters.
Hopefully we will be again with van Gaal in charge playing an attacking 4-3-3 formation with an attacking front 3 and well balanced midfield 3Manchester United are supposed to be good at counters.
Kagawa season review:
Will have a separate video for all his passes, hopefully.
Will have a separate video for all his passes, hopefully.
20 PL and CL starts
Average rating for those 20 games = 6.85
22 chances created, 3 assists
Average rating for those 20 games = 6.85
22 chances created, 3 assists
He scored a decent goal in Japan's comebackk against Zambia yesterday. Nice to see him take more initiative when it matters. It's only Zambia but still nice to see player step up and score.
@JefferiesTube the average rating seems about right. Hasn't really been all that spectacular but not really poor either.
That sounds about right.
Cleverley average rating from 20 starts = 6.78
Fletcher average rating from 10 starts = 6.72
Young average rating from 15 starts = 6.66 (bad omen if ever there was one
)The standard of Hartlepools United is 6.85. The standard of Manchester United is 7.85+. Anything below 7/10 is complete and utter failure.
we had a below par season. surprise surpriseCleverley average rating from 20 starts = 6.78
Fletcher average rating from 10 starts = 6.72
Young average rating from 15 starts = 6.66 (bad omen if ever there was one
The standard of Hartlepools United is 6.85. The standard of Manchester United is 7.85+. Anything below 7/10 is complete and utter failure.
He's done well in Japan's pre-world cup friendlies.
In the last 3 games, he's made 2 goals, 2 assists and 2 MOTM-esque performances. Even if Japan is a weaker team and the opponents likewise, there shouldn't be any guarantee for goals, assists and MOTM performances. Honda, Nagatomo, Endo, Okazaki and Uchida are all good players.
Hopefully he can keep this up at the world cup. Japan's defense is extremely shaky, so they need all the goals they can get.
In the last 3 games, he's made 2 goals, 2 assists and 2 MOTM-esque performances. Even if Japan is a weaker team and the opponents likewise, there shouldn't be any guarantee for goals, assists and MOTM performances. Honda, Nagatomo, Endo, Okazaki and Uchida are all good players.
Hopefully he can keep this up at the world cup. Japan's defense is extremely shaky, so they need all the goals they can get.
Well whenever Kagawa plays good, it's always with a weak opponent, only Italy's game comes to mind when you remember his performances against top sides, Japan was really bad against Mexico and Brazil at Conf Cup.
Very strange opinion. If you mean top level as a single team, Munich, it's kind of useless, don't you think? Germany has one strong team, Munich, that is currently stronger than English top teams, but that's just these three years. Dortmund is on the level, they could not even defeat Arsenal conclusively. But the main thing is that it's all. Bayer L and Schalke is a complete jokes and were completely shattered by Chelsea and MU. And that was an average Chelsea and a very weak MU. And that is a level of Bundesliga, a league where your 3-d, 4-st best teams are loosing like 7-1, 5-1 to a top teams from other leagues.
So it's actually the other way around. Apart from two team, Bundesliga just don't have any strong team at all, Leverkusen is an embarrassment of a CL team. But their average level, like a Europa League and teams that aspire to be there like a 5-10 places in the table is better than England's, that why they have much more success in EL.
I think it's a very primitive way to look at things, it can only be used just to justify Kagawa. I mean everything you said could be said about Valencia, young, even Rooney. I think it's a two way street that, the team plays like that, because players like that. If Kagawa really was impressive player, individually strong, like say Hazard, he would have done much better, and would have done much better as well.
Yes Kagawa can be a part of a entertaining team, but how much of it, due to a system itself and how much of it due to his personal level. Simply put, could it be translated into other systems, because Fergie or LVGs, their play would still be very much different to that Dortmund. And also there is a question of how important was he for Dortmund anyway. They went on to win league title his last year, big achievement. But Dortmund had some players who looked good there, while being average at best. Barrios faded while at Dortmund but still, he looked really impressive in their champions team as well, and hasn't shown anything worthwhile ever since. Sahin was one of their best player, he could not make it in Liverpool or Real, now he is back there, and he still plays for them, but not really as good as he did.
In terms of Kagawa there there is also a question of Dortmund's CL run. People saying they were inexperienced, and that's why they failed so miserably in the average group. I think it's a rather stupid suggestion. Next year they are in a final, so what one year is enough for proper experience? Kind of thin at best. And when you look how Reus's done in his first year, clearly you see that experience was not a problem at all. For me, when Dortmund sold Kagawa and bought Reus they basically just got better player. So he gave them much more attacking impetus and allowed them to be more of a force in Europe.
That's what i reckon as a major problem with Kagawa. For me, Kagawa, Sahin, Kehl, Kuba (polish RM), Piszczek are fine players, but those who will always struggle to flourish and really make a mark elsewhere.
If Kagawa plays central, there is more chance of him having a good game, whether it is for United or Japan. With Dortmund he played the vast majority of his games as CAM and had a very good season.
I don;t think he was a CAM, more like second striker, when i watched Dortmund that time he played really advanced. Much more further up the pitch than Mata in Chelsea for example.
I agree he is a second striker, but the main point is he needs to play central. Whether we label him SS, CAM, no10, the most important aspect is he plays central.
@Lane
Kagawa has been one of the standout performers for Japan vs Argentina, Paraguay, France and Italy(as you mentioned). He was also decent against Belgium. Moreover, he was Japan's most important player in the Asian Cup, and became MOTM in the semi-final against a pretty decent South Korea with Park Ji-Sung as the captain.
As for Bundesliga vs PL. The Dortmund team that Kagawa was a part of, was better than any current PL team. The top flight(the 3 strongest teams) is overall stronger in Bundesliga, because both Bayern and Dortmund are better than the all the teams in the PL. It doesn't matter if Schalke wouldn't get anywhere near the top 3 then. The average level of the top 3 is still higher in Germany.
The argument that Kagawa is a one-trick pony dependent on Dortmund and Klopp doesn't make sense when you see how well he plays for Japan generally. And even for us, in his best games, you can see that he still has it. What Kagawa really is dependent on, is fluid attacking football with lots of off-the-ball movement. Give him this, and he will thrive, no matter the team. United is a stronger team than Japan, so there's no reason for why he can't play well for us. In fact, I think he played well for us in his first season. Not nearly Dortmund level, but still well.
Moyes took away all the elements needed for Kagawa to play well:
1. Consistent playtime
2. Trust
3. Positive football
It's no wonder Kagawa's level dropped under Moyes. And he's not the only player either! I love Carrick, but he's only been a shadow of himself! RVP, while struggling with injuries and still scoring goals, has also looked much tamer than usual. Mata has been good, but he's nothing like the Mata from 1-2 years ago. Our wingers have generally been shite, but this season they've really outdone themselves.
Had Fergie stayed and retired this summer instead, then we'd be looking at a completely different Kagawa. The fact that he looks like staying proves that he still believes that he can make it. Many players would have fled in his situation. But it's obvious that he sees that all it takes, is a better coach with a better vision. The monster(Moyes) is gone. It's time to shine now. Mata's signature has made things more difficult for him, but if he can "learn" how to play on the wings like he does for Japan, then it shouldn't be a problem.
Kagawa has been one of the standout performers for Japan vs Argentina, Paraguay, France and Italy(as you mentioned). He was also decent against Belgium. Moreover, he was Japan's most important player in the Asian Cup, and became MOTM in the semi-final against a pretty decent South Korea with Park Ji-Sung as the captain.
As for Bundesliga vs PL. The Dortmund team that Kagawa was a part of, was better than any current PL team. The top flight(the 3 strongest teams) is overall stronger in Bundesliga, because both Bayern and Dortmund are better than the all the teams in the PL. It doesn't matter if Schalke wouldn't get anywhere near the top 3 then. The average level of the top 3 is still higher in Germany.
The argument that Kagawa is a one-trick pony dependent on Dortmund and Klopp doesn't make sense when you see how well he plays for Japan generally. And even for us, in his best games, you can see that he still has it. What Kagawa really is dependent on, is fluid attacking football with lots of off-the-ball movement. Give him this, and he will thrive, no matter the team. United is a stronger team than Japan, so there's no reason for why he can't play well for us. In fact, I think he played well for us in his first season. Not nearly Dortmund level, but still well.
Moyes took away all the elements needed for Kagawa to play well:
1. Consistent playtime
2. Trust
3. Positive football
It's no wonder Kagawa's level dropped under Moyes. And he's not the only player either! I love Carrick, but he's only been a shadow of himself! RVP, while struggling with injuries and still scoring goals, has also looked much tamer than usual. Mata has been good, but he's nothing like the Mata from 1-2 years ago. Our wingers have generally been shite, but this season they've really outdone themselves.
Had Fergie stayed and retired this summer instead, then we'd be looking at a completely different Kagawa. The fact that he looks like staying proves that he still believes that he can make it. Many players would have fled in his situation. But it's obvious that he sees that all it takes, is a better coach with a better vision. The monster(Moyes) is gone. It's time to shine now. Mata's signature has made things more difficult for him, but if he can "learn" how to play on the wings like he does for Japan, then it shouldn't be a problem.
Next season we should play with van Persie/Rooney as striker and Mata/Kagawa as second striker. If these 4 players are all still United players. For every game have either Rooney and Mata, van Persie and Mata, Rooney and Kagawa or van Persie and Kagawa. Who plays and who is on the bench depends on form. If van Persie and Kagawa happen to be the 2 in form, they play every game, until they are a) injured b) have bad run of form. A player should not be dropped if they play one bad game, they should be given a bollocking though. If they play 2 bad games in a row, THEN they get dropped. Follow this philosophy throughout the season so that the player who features the most is the one who plays the best. Never drop a player if they are playing well, it is an idiotic thing to do.
Example, we start the season with van Persie and Mata. They play well for 4 games, but then Mata has a couple of bad games. So Kagawa steps in. van Persie and Kagawa play well for 12 games in a row, nice, Rooney and Mata just have to deal with it. Then van Persie has a couple of bad games, so Rooney comes in. Rooney and Kagawa play well for 6 games, then Kagawa has couple of bad games, so now its Rooney and Mata. They play well for 9 games in a row. And so on. If they are playing badly you keep changing until they play well. If they play well, you never change it. And each of the 4 players never plays in any other position. ST van Persie/Rooney. SS Mata/Kagawa. If you want, you can add Welbeck into the mix, but only as ST. So you would have 3 strikers competing. If one plays badly, they go to the back of the queue and have to wait for another chance.
Example, we start the season with van Persie and Mata. They play well for 4 games, but then Mata has a couple of bad games. So Kagawa steps in. van Persie and Kagawa play well for 12 games in a row, nice, Rooney and Mata just have to deal with it. Then van Persie has a couple of bad games, so Rooney comes in. Rooney and Kagawa play well for 6 games, then Kagawa has couple of bad games, so now its Rooney and Mata. They play well for 9 games in a row. And so on. If they are playing badly you keep changing until they play well. If they play well, you never change it. And each of the 4 players never plays in any other position. ST van Persie/Rooney. SS Mata/Kagawa. If you want, you can add Welbeck into the mix, but only as ST. So you would have 3 strikers competing. If one plays badly, they go to the back of the queue and have to wait for another chance.
For me, there are two points to it.
First of all, he does play on the left for Japan. He plays as a AML, inside player there, but never did he play or asked to play a left winger for United in the same sense as Valencia, he always roamed around.
Then is he really good to play central for United. He did play there a couple of games, yes, without consistent role etc, but still and was not really convincing. The thing is, if you play in the center you must deliver. Goals and assists. Otherwise you are useless, you can "play good" as winger or RB, as a central attacking player you must deliver, same goes for CF.
I am not sure Kagawa is ready for such a role in the team. So given that we do have Mata, i think it's either Kagawa would be able to play as a squad player, that means to play good from the bench and seize your chance when manager give you one. And/or develop necessary skills and versatility to play on the sides. Or deeper. Although i believe that (CM role i mean) is a pipe dream. He looses ball far too much in this role and is not strong enough.
All players should play in a position that best utilizes their strengths and if possible diminishes their weaknesses to negligible levels. Kagawa does not have any strengths that suit the position of flank player. He is not strong at dribbling, he doesn't have pace, he isn't strong at crossing and defensively, he is average. All Kagawa's strengths are suited to playing central between forward and midfield.
Lets see how he will do at WC, i don't regard friendlies as a real football matches.
Dortmund team with Kagawa in it finished 4-th in a CL group with Arsenal, the weakest PL top-4 team at that time, and they aced that group. Argument closed really. Football results don't support what you suggesting. There is just no basis whatsoever to say Bundes top-3 even on par with EPL's never mind better. Just look who finished as a third team in Bundesliga in 2012, 2013 and how exactly did they do in CL matches. As i've said only Bayern is a better team. Dortmund is on par over the last 3 years and everyone else, Schalke, Leverkusen are miles behind.
I've seen Japan in Conf Cup and they have impressed me at all, they had a decent game against Italy, but were below average with Mexico and Brazil. And i did not see any fluid attacking play from them in these matches as well.
And it's not a one trick pony argument, it's a general level of play one. Kuba for example is a very intelligent player, really versatile, captain as i remember of a mid table, but a good european national side. But i doubt regard him as a top player. Same goes for everyone i named in the post. Sometimes, the team suits you so well, you really strive in it, but your personal level is not as high. It was also case for United's player. Many average in essence players had a great careers here. John O'Shea for example. And in many games he looked really good. Surely Fergie would not give him like 400 apps for United if he was not. Yet i very much doubt than John would be able to play even 80% as good anywhere else.
I disagree, i expected much more from Kagawa, and i don't think he was good for us in 2012. It was a decent first season, kind of average decent. A lot of attacking players did much much better, Cazorla for example, and it's not like Arsenal was a team with fluid football, etc. And it was a new system, new league and so on.
It is a dangerous thing to judge a player based on the current season, cause they all mostly under-performed. But to write it off completely is not an option either. Last year Chelsea had Di Matteo for half a season yet they did not fall as much behind as we did this year, so there is some truth in a theory that our squad was not really as good as one could expect.
That's a very generous assumption. Maybe he would be better, than he was, but would he improve on his first season? I am not sure. And i would not put too much goodwill on his staying here, i mean Nani and Anderson are here for quite some time, not a such a good thing at all in my opinion, they also decided t stay, i would prefer they'd fled.
Let's see how Kagawa would play next season under LVG. Of course i am all for him being able to play on the wings, as i think he would not play in the center, not as a starter at least. Would be great if he could progress and do well. But it's something he needs to do. I am not buying all these excuses that Kagawa is a great player and his poor form here is United's fault.
No. My understanding is all players should play in the positions that helps/suits the team most. Now if it's their favored position and the team is ready to built it's play around them - that's great. But if it's not they should either adapt or leave.
And what exactly would he bring in a ACM role? I mean in terms of being superior to Mata, for example. I don't see what sort of exceptional skills he possesses that make him a top team's number 10/CAM.
That was Dortmund's first season in the CL for a really long time. If I'm not mistaken, neither Klopp nor any of the players had any CL experience whatsoever. The fact that they made the CL final next year with pretty much the exact same team(just with Reus instead of Kagawa) proves that they just needed some experience. No way in hell did Reus alone make the difference. Imo, Dortmund was at least equally good when Kagawa was around.
But this is just word against word. Imo, Dortmund 2012 and up until now has been better than any PL team in the same period. If I was to make a current ranking based on this season, the list would look like this:
1. Bayern
2. Dortmund
3. City
4. Liverpool
5. Chelsea
6. Schalke
Conclusion: Bundesliga has the higher top level.
You chose the worst games to watch. Japan was generally crap in 2013. They didn't "wake up" until they played Holland and Belgium in november. They got a win and a draw here, very deservedly. They outplayed both teams. Friendly or not.
But yeah, we'll see when the WC comes.
If we play 4-3-3 with LW, ST, RW and AM behind the front 3, then those 4 players need to deliver. They need to be creative and score goals. Everything else is window dressing, the most important thing is GOALS, because goals win football matches. The more goals we score the better. Objective for next season should be play 38 win 38 and score as many goals as possible. We are not going to win 38 out of 38, but that should be the objective and see how close to that objective we can get. The closer we get, the more chance we have of winning the Premier League. So, those 4 players, 2 wingers, striker and AM/no10 type. Each of those players needs to aim to be sub 30 minutes for goals and creativity. This means, if they play 2000 minutes in a season they need to have a total number of goals scored and chances created of 67. If they play 3000 minutes in a season, they need to have a total number number of goals scored and chances created of 101.
Mata 12/13 created 95 chances, scored 11 goals and played 2727 minutes. 25.7 mins per goal/chance and sub 30.
Kagawa 12/13 created 19 chances, scored 6 goals and played 1314 minutes. 52.6 mins per goal/chance and nowhere near sub 30.
If you have your 4 attacking players all sub 30 for creativity and goals, you are going to be destroying teams. Only 3, not as good, 2 even worse, 1 even worse, none, even worse. And the further away the player is from sub 30 the worse the team will perform.
Overall seems about right yes. He did have a good month or so but he needs to keep that up for at least half a season next time
I don't agree. You should never try and force a square peg into a round hole. If you play with 11 players, all of them playing in their optimum position the team will perform at its optimum. The team benefits by playing players in their optimum position. The balance of the team is massively important. If you play a player out of position, the whole team dynamic is affected. The more players out of position, the worse the problem gets.
Why do you take the 2012 year alone? Don't you think it's kind of foolish, to take one successful year, Dortmund played Arsenal again this year, and was not much better, was not better at all in fact. And over the last 3 years, they did not show they are any better.
Schalke at number 6 above United and Arsenal? I think it's just stupid. Look any german team apart from Dortmund and Munich are embarrassment in CL in the last couple of years.
Leverkusen lost 9-2 to MU this year, 10-2 to Barca, 5-1 to Chelsea two years ago. Borussia M lost to Dynamo Kiev in the qualification. Schalke 9-2 to Real and 6-0 to Chelsea this year. Last year they were defeated by Galatasaray, somehow they managed not get beaten by Arsenal, that was more of a local glitch really. Cause in 2011 they were hammered again by United.
Dortmund and Munich are the only team that are worthy to be called CL-level teams in Germany, others like Schalke and Leverkusen are more likely to get they ass completely kicked by any of english current top-4 plus United. I think even Spurs and maybe
Well if Japan can only "outplay" their opponents in friendly games, but in real competition like even a Conf Cup look like crap, it does tell you a lot about a team. As i've said friendly games essentially are non-competitive, i could not care less how any team does in them. I've given you a great example, that friendly games does not show true strength of a teams at all. Italy lost to USA (or drew), Russia just before Euro, yet they managed to get to the final.
Well i did not see anybody trying to play with 11 GKs, so it's okay. All this position stuff is mostly flexible anyway. Balance is important, but then again we are not talking about playing Mata as a RB.
If Japan is trying to fit Kagawa on the left, because they don't believe he is as good as Honda in the middle, why should United do any different?
Read again. I wrote 2012 and up until now.
Dortmund failed the first time, but what happened the two following years? They won the group of death twice, got to the final once and just barely lost to the team that won the whole tournament this year. Dortmund from 2012 and up until now is obviously better than any PL team in the same period.
Again you're seeing things that aren't there. I never said that Schalke is better than United and Arsenal.
If you pick out the top flight(i.e. 3 best teams) from each league and let them face each other in a "league", it would look like the one I posted above. The PL has a higher average level, but the Bundesliga has a higher top level. Period. Schalke might be weaker than a shitload of PL teams, but no PL team is better than Bayern and Dortmund.
That's the problem with national teams. The chances to prove yourself are too few and far between. We have to look at friendlies as well. Japan reached the round of 16 with a signifacntly weaker team in a tougher group in 2010. I think they'll manage just fine this time.
This is not the case at all. Honda is a shite winger, whereas Kagawa is really good(for Japan). It's all about balance.
Let's say that Honda is an 8/10 AM, but a 6/10 winger. Kagawa is an 8/10 AM and a 7/10 winger. It makes more sense to play Kagawa on the wing then. Japan doesn't have any good wingers. Guess who plays on the right wing? Okazaki, a bloody center forward!
I think Kagawa played well on the left WHEN Mata was playing in the middle (as opposed to Rooney). The toe linked up and interchanged well.
Basically Kagawa will shine in a versatile and creative front four - but not when he is asked to stick left and hug the touchline.
Basically Kagawa will shine in a versatile and creative front four - but not when he is asked to stick left and hug the touchline.
I wonder what you thought about Lahm in midfield then
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