Shinji Kagawa

[Annahnomoss]

Yeah, most of this post is a big load of crap. No matter how you rate Rooney, he's still done a hell of a lot better than Kagawa as the AM and played some of his best football there. You've got to be willfully blind to say otherwise. Mata has also praised Rooney for that matter but I doubt Van Gaal gives 2 shits as to what any of the players think.

The only question is whether Kagawa can finally start producing enough to topple one of Januzaj, Rooney or Mata from their positions and that's not even mentioning Nani who at his best was also better than Kagawa. And I very much doubt Kagwa is going to play as a CM. Mata AND Kagawa in CM is a no and won't happen.

And wtf is one-gear defending?

I disagree, and let's agree to disagree - we rate Rooney differently. Rooney is bad an AM in my eyes and wouldn't bench any top team AM's, he doesn't possess any of the necessary qualities and rarely is the third midfielder who helps us dominate the central midfield battle. Instead he plays the role like a second striker, leaving the CM's to do all the work themselves while he tries to make runs in to danger zones.

If we had the worlds best CM duo, Rooney would be a clear option for me as an AM as we wouldn't need three midfielders in every game - but with what we got we will not be able to co-op without an AM who helps out the midfield.

With one-gear defending I mean that some players move an incredible amount during the course of a game - Kagawa/Carrick - but they rarely hit the short term intensity of the others. Carrick in his peak was a quiet player defensively, always in the right position making it difficult for the opponents but never the limelight player who won the ball back with their intensity.

 

[Lane]

Yeah, keep on blathering nonsense.

That's a fact, Kagawa scored zero goals all season and thus failed to convert any chances created for him by teammates. Only a blind person would suggest otherwise.

 

[Nighteyes]

I disagree, and let's agree to disagree - we rate Rooney differently. Rooney is bad an AM in my eyes and wouldn't bench any top team AM's, he doesn't possess any of the necessary qualities and rarely is the third midfielder who helps us dominate the central midfield battle. Instead he plays the role like a second striker, leaving the CM's to do all the work themselves while he tries to make runs in to danger zones.

If we had the worlds best CM duo, Rooney would be a clear option for me as an AM as we wouldn't need three midfielders in every game - but with what we got we will not be able to co-op without an AM who helps out the midfield.

With one-gear defending I mean that some players move an incredible amount during the course of a game - Kagawa/Carrick - but they rarely hit the short term intensity of the others. Carrick in his peak was a quiet player defensively, always in the right position making it difficult for the opponents but never the limelight player who won the ball back with their intensity.

Well that's complete bollocks and revisionism. Even last season with Moyes, there were several games where Rooney was closer to a 3rd midfielder than a second striker. Our entire run to the CL final in '11 he helped out our midfield hell of a lot while being superb going forward. Either way, Kagawa is not a 'top' AM and in fact at Dortmund he was closer to a 2nd striker than a conventional AM (Silva, Mata etc..).

I see but you massively rate overrate Kagawa (theme of this thread) both defensively and going forward. He's not shown himself to anywehere near as good as most people claim on this thread.

 

[Annahnomoss]

That's a fact, Kagawa scored zero goals all season and thus failed to convert any chances created for him by teammates. Only a blind person would suggest otherwise.

Nobody can defend such stats, but you are presenting them completely wrong. He failed to score goals when he had the chance not "convert chances created for him by his teammates". You can convert a penalty by passing side-ways to your mate who scores, or get free with the goal keeper and convert the chance by passing to a mate who scores.

Why not just stick to the truth "He failed to score any goals", rather than twist to to portray someone who failed to convert all chances he got all season.

 

[Lane]

The main thing attacking players should do is score and assists. It's goals that win you games. And Kagawa can hardly do that. And when he was tried with Mata as CM's against Southampton away, it was a disaster. A complete and utter disaster. When Carrick came on in the second half our play became much more assured.
Kagawa also was bad in a CM role against Hull. He does not have good dribbling skills, he does not have strength, his defensive qualities is weak, when compared to Carrick, Jones, Fellaini, even Cleverley. Basically the only thing he can offer at CM is his steady passing and ball retention. Same thing as Cleverley, who also has like 90% pass acc. And more importantly Carrick already occupies this role. At CM we need someone with balls, not a timid, unconfined Kagawa. Someone with vigor, who can tackle, dribble through, score. Like Vidal. Or at least like Khedira.

 

[Annahnomoss]

Well that's complete bollocks and revisionism. Even last season with Moyes, there were several games where Rooney was closer to a 3rd midfielder than a second striker. Our entire run to the CL final in '11 he helped out our midfield hell of a lot while being superb going forward. Either way, Kagawa is not a 'top' AM and in fact at Dortmund he was closer to a 2nd striker than a conventional AM (Silva, Mata etc..).

I see but you massively rate overrate Kagawa (theme of this thread) both defensively and going forward. He's not shown himself to anywehere near as good as most people claim on this thread.

I've not rated Rooney as an AM ever, not in any season he has played there as he is one of the key reasons we never have a midfield which is stable and creative enough. Rooney always plays the role too offensively, like a striker being played out of position he constantly leaves his CM's to do all the dirty work while he makes run forward to get at the end of an assist or a goal.

This is a second striker role, rather than an AM and there is nothing wrong with that. But it requires you to already have the worlds best CM's who can fight 2 vs 3 in the central midfield and still do a great job defensively and offensively. No top teams plays with a Rooney sort of AM except us, so we are always the ones who tactically expose on our CM's and rely on them to do a monster job - while we also have the worst CM's of the top teams.

With one-gear I mean that Carrick/Kagawa runs more than the rest, while they never hit the intensity heights of someone like Rafael/Valencia. It isn't ideal to just work in one gear, but Carrick was world-class doing so.

 

[Lane]

Nobody can defend such stats, but you are presenting them completely wrong. He failed to score goals when he had the chance not "convert chances created for him by his teammates". You can convert a penalty by passing side-ways to your mate who scores, or get free with the goal keeper and convert the chance by passing to a mate who scores.

Why not just stick to the truth "He failed to score any goals", rather than twist to to portray someone who failed to convert all chances he got all season.

Read the whole thing, the whole of original post and replies.
Let me spell it out for you. There was a suggestion that other players were wasteful with Kagawa's better passes. Which is a very stupid thing to say, because Kagawa himself let down his partners down in absolutely the same manner by failing to score. You get it now?
In already mentioned Swansea's game (PL home) Kagawa probably should have had assist, when he crossed for Smalling i think it was. Was a great cross and not so great header. But then Rafael should also had an assist with his run and a great pass, that gave Kagawa a simple one-on-one chance.
So the point is Kagawa, and poster here who support him, can't really complain about other players missing chances if Kagawa himself failed to convert a single one.

 

[Brophs]

I'd be pretty surprised if he doesn't get a real chance under LVG. If by the end of the season we haven't seen the real Kagawa then he can have no complaints if he's moved on, as that would be three managers he wouldn't have performed anywhere near his best for. Plus he would have had the chance to play for LVG in a modern, progressive system, which we keep hearing is part of the problem.

If it doesn't happen now it likely never will.

 

[Nighteyes]

I've not rated Rooney as an AM ever, not in any season he has played there as he is one of the key reasons we never have a midfield which is stable and creative enough. Rooney always plays the role too offensively, like a striker being played out of position he constantly leaves his CM's to do all the dirty work while he makes run forward to get at the end of an assist or a goal.

I see you are continuing with your revisionism and bollocks. We shouldn't play Rooney there because he's too attacking (despite him doing a feck load of defensive work for our midfield as recently as this season and throughout our run to the CL final) but we should play Kagawa who's best form came when we played in a more advanced role than a traditional AM does. Embarrassing. Rooney is at fault for our poor midfield, Nani's form and now Kagawa's form. The excuses on this thread are mind bogglingly pathetic.

Good day.

 

[Wumminator]

Thanks for reminding us!

I remember, you didn't reply to that post did you. You talked of how Kagawa was an absolutely awful player and then he had that excellent spell when Moyes played him consistently where everybody was talking about how good he was. After one game in the world cup for Japan they've forgotten the glimpses he showed especially when he was linking up with Mata.

We should wait and see how he does in Louis van Gaal's system, thanks for reminding everybody Twiggy.

Let us take a trip down memory lane and see what your opinions were:























So 'anytime' he has put on a United shirt, you are yet to be impressed. High standards? Even his haters admit he has had a good game here and there but not you.

You don't think he is worthy of sitting on the United bench...

You're content with Cleverley starting in a midfield two still!

Rooney and Jones in CM and Nani and Young on the wings means no place for Kagawa!!

Nice to see you think Ashley Young has been much better than him this year

Ashely Young has been a game changer four or five times this season, how about those times he has lost the ball and we conceded?

Playing for Dortmund in Bundesliga and stopping Munich from winning the title twice, even smashing them in the cup is still levels below the premier league, right?

On the last point, I take it you think just about every player for the club wasn't good enough! Well other than Ashley Young of course...

I think all of those points are pretty valid. Certainly not anything there that requires mocking. Seems pretty sensible compared to some of the hype he gets.

 

[Annahnomoss]

I see you are continuing with your revisionism and bollocks. We shouldn't play Rooney there because he's too attacking (despite him doing a feck load of defensive work for our midfield as recently as this season and throughout our run to the CL final) but we should play Kagawa who's best form came when we played in a more advanced role than a traditional AM does. Embarrassing. Rooney is at fault for our poor midfield, Nani's form and now Kagawa's form. The excuses on this thread are mind bogglingly pathetic.

Good day.

What he does when we don't have the ball is not the issue, neither is that an issue with Kagawa those are two of our players who cover the most ground. The issue with Rooney is that for an AM he plays too offensively when we do have the ball, like Luiz plays too offensively when Chelsea has the ball at times which can cause his team problem.

Rooney plays the AM role much further up the pitch, looking for completely different things than a real AM would - which is why no other top team in Europe uses an AM like Rooney. The players in the other top teams with the abilities of Rooney play as strikers instead - which is where Rooney should play.

Rooney turns our 4-2-3-1 in to a 4-4-1-1 because Rooney plays too far forward, he is looking for runs in behind the defense or to dangerous areas constantly which if the CM finds him will turn in to a clear goal chance. But 95% of the game they don't find him in these areas and they are left exposed without the third passing option. Meaning they have a harder time breaking through the opponents and the chance of a mistake which leads to a dangerous counter is much higher.

The team is then forced to play side-ways passes deep down in the midfield or long balls. When a real AM plays there he constantly offers a passing option for the central midfielders and he also tries to link every part of our team together with each other. The wide midfielders don't have to receive the ball far down towards their own pitch - instead the AM can receive the ball and try to put them in play with a short ball to their feet.

The same is proven with RVP and Rooney's horrible track record together, Rooney doesn't find RVP very often at all.

Mata is one of the four top tier AM's in the world, Rooney is not top 20 it simply isn't his position.

 

[Nighteyes]

What he does when we don't have the ball is not the issue, neither is that an issue with Kagawa those are two of our players who cover the most ground. The issue with Rooney is that for an AM he plays too offensively when we do have the ball, like Luiz plays too offensively when Chelsea has the ball at times which can cause his team problem.

Rooney plays the AM role much further up the pitch, looking for completely different things than a real AM would - which is why no other top team in Europe uses an AM like Rooney. The players in the other top teams with the abilities of Rooney play as strikers instead - which is where Rooney should play.

Rooney turns our 4-2-3-1 in to a 4-4-1-1 because Rooney plays too far forward, he is looking for runs in behind the defense or to dangerous areas constantly which if the CM finds him will turn in to a clear goal chance. But 95% of the game they don't find him in these areas and they are left exposed without the third passing option. Meaning they have a harder time breaking through the opponents and the chance of a mistake which leads to a dangerous counter is much higher.

The team is then forced to play side-ways passes deep down in the midfield or long balls. When a real AM plays there he constantly offers a passing option for the central midfielders and he also tries to link every part of our team together with each other. The wide midfielders don't have to receive the ball far down towards their own pitch - instead the AM can receive the ball and try to put them in play with a short ball to their feet.

The same is proven with RVP and Rooney's horrible track record together, Rooney doesn't find RVP very often at all.

Mata is one of the four top tier AM's in the world, Rooney is not top 20 it simply isn't his position.

Major lol at the last line. Hilarious post! Go look at Rooney and RVP's first season to see how they did find each other a lot and directly assisted each others goals. Don't let facts get in the way will you!

You still ignore the point that Kagawa played a more attacking role at Dortmund than other conventional AM's.

 

[Annahnomoss]

Major lol at the last line. Hilarious post! Go look at Rooney and RVP's first season to see how they did find each other a lot and directly assisted each others goals. Don't let facts get in the way will you!

You still ignore the point that Kagawa played a more attacking role at Dortmund than other conventional AM's.

So how do you rate Rooney as an AM? Where does he rank compared to the other plays who can play or plays AM? I don't think I've ever heard an opposition non-British fan saying Rooney is among the worlds best AM's and should be the one playing for United in our attempt to become one of the best teams in the world.

What does it matter if Kagawa played a more attacking AM role for Dortmund when they play a completely different tactic and his role was very different. It is like saying "Rooney can't play a striker, because when he played for England as the left winger he played way too far out wide for a striker". It depends on the role one is assigned, not the natural tendencies of the players which Kagawa has shown for United where he is often too deep helping the central midfielders out rather than camping just behind RVP trying to make runs(Albeit in some matches he has been instructed to do this - it has looked bad in my eyes too as when Rooney does the same.)

Rooney hasn't performed as an AM under Fergie or Moyes when he has been instructed to play further down the pitch. Because even if the idea is that he does it, he follows his natural tendencies as a striker and starts abandoning the central midfielders to make more offensive runs.

I don't want Kagawa to play the AM role, I think that one is between Mata and Rooney where Mata wins hands down without a question. The question for me is like I said earlier - Mata and RVP are our star players and they fit perfectly together stylistically - so who should get to play with them to get the best out of them?

For me Kagawa is the player who has looked best with Mata for United.

 

[Nighteyes]

So how do you rate Rooney as an AM? Where does he rank compared to the other plays who can play or plays AM? I don't think I've ever heard an opposition non-British fan saying Rooney is among the worlds best AM's and should be the one playing for United in our attempt to become one of the best teams in the world.

I really couldn't care less what opposition fans say. Rooney more often than not in his United career has played as AM. He has played his best football as AM and his years at the club has coincided with the some of the most successful years in the clubs history. As far as productivity goes he's right up there as one of the best AM's in the league. If you want elegance and a slightly deeper AM I would pick Silva. You are re-writing history if you think Rooney can't play there. He has and he has done very well. In response you will now come up with a load of bollocks on how he played as a second striker and not as a AM and how he does not do his bit defensively (which is a load of crap). Fact is, he played behind the striker and did very well and as did the club.

What does it matter if Kagawa played a more attacking AM role for Dortmund when they play a completely different tactic and his role was very different. It is like saying "Rooney can't play a striker, because when he played for England as the left winger he played way too far out wide for a striker". It depends on the role one is assigned, not the natural tendencies of the players which Kagawa has shown for United where he is often too deep helping the central midfielders out rather than camping just behind RVP trying to make runs(Albeit in some matches he has been instructed to do this - it has looked bad in my eyes too as when Rooney does the same.)

What??

You's spent the entire debate writing pointless essays on how Rooney is a 2nd striker and not a 'proper AM' whatever the feck that means. Kagawa's best form came when playing in a more advanced role (almost a 2nd striker). Where is the evidence he's 'proper AM'? Why on earth do you think he can play as one with nothing to back you up?

Rooney hasn't performed as an AM under Fergie or Moyes when he has been instructed to play further down the pitch. Because even if the idea is that he does it, he follows his natural tendencies as a striker and starts abandoning the central midfielders to make more offensive runs.

He has. You are just ignoring it because it doesn't suit your argument.

 

[Annahnomoss]

So where do you rank Rooney as an AM? You've just said "In terms of productivity" which is far from the same as his overall ability as an AM. I disagree that he is good as an AM, he is a striker and I think he is better out wide than as an AM as he isn't the main playmaker of the team but can still cut in further up the pitch and enter the box as well.

Kagawa has proved for United that when he plays he has a much higher level in terms of playmaking than Rooney, he has shown it starting from the left and centrally - especially when he has started with Mata(which everything is about).

You are free to rate Rooney as an AM, I disagree and I know the majority of fans thinks Mata is among the top tier of AM's and that Rooney quite clearly isn't. Like I keep going on about, the question is who partners Mata who is by far the best AM(who with RVP is the best player in the team and they both suit each other). I think Kagawa is the player who has performed best of all our players, including Rooney and RVP with Mata in the team as the AM.

If Rooney was better than Mata and RVP perfectly suited Rooney(instead of being absolute shit together) I wouldn't want Kagawa anywhere near the team. He wouldn't be a suited candidate in terms of style and I would even have Fellaini in the side ahead of him then.

 

[Spoony]

Heh, he's a great player! You lot just can't see it!

 

[Xaviesta]

Heh, he's a great player! You lot just can't see it!

Haven't seen it in two seasons.

 

[Man of Leisure]

Januzaj is better than Kagawa both centrally and on the left.

How many times have we seen Januzaj as a #10 last season? For that matter, how many times has Kagawa started as a #10? I would guess maybe once or twice at most? Vaguely recall one game where Kagawa played as a #10, and Chicharito started up top. Fecking Fellaini might have started more games off the striker than him. Kagawa has barely played in his favored position even though there were a number of games where Rooney & Mata were unavailable. Yes, I know he constantly drifts in when playing on the left, but it's still not the same. Never got a run of games centrally which might sound like an excuse, but it's also true.

Regardless of why, Kagawa has yet to duplicate the form he's displayed at Dortmund. In his own words, he's had a disappointing season last year. Similar to most of our team, I may add. Moyes' poor man-management didn't help in that regard. Still, I wouldn't say that Kagawa was exceptionally poor last season (unlike Young and at times Valencia) except for that one game where Giggs started him in central midfield. Currently, it appears as if the past season has finally caught up to him, and Kagawa looks devoid of confidence even for Japan where he's usually performed well regardless of his United form. I hope that LVG gives him opportunities as a #10, as I still believe he can be a great player for us and offers something different there than Rooney or even Mata. Really will be a make-it or break-it year for Kagawa at United. No more excuses.

 

[AlwaysRedwood]

That's a fact, Kagawa scored zero goals all season and thus failed to convert any chances created for him by teammates. Only a blind person would suggest otherwise.

Yes, didn't create any chances either. He's the worst player ever. I think you've nailed it.

 

[AlwaysRedwood]

Read the whole thing, the whole of original post and replies.
Let me spell it out for you. There was a suggestion that other players were wasteful with Kagawa's better passes. Which is a very stupid thing to say, because Kagawa himself let down his partners down in absolutely the same manner by failing to score. You get it now?
In already mentioned Swansea's game (PL home) Kagawa probably should have had assist, when he crossed for Smalling i think it was. Was a great cross and not so great header. But then Rafael should also had an assist with his run and a great pass, that gave Kagawa a simple one-on-one chance.
So the point is Kagawa, and poster here who support him, can't really complain about other players missing chances if Kagawa himself failed to convert a single one.

That's a remarkably stupid point.

I think all of those points are pretty valid. Certainly not anything there that requires mocking. Seems pretty sensible compared to some of the hype he gets.

Yep. He's not worthy of the bench. We need the blind crossing of your game changer Young or the head down crossing of Valencia. None of which accounts for the fact he's better at crossing when it's not his desired position.



What you are is the guy who comes in when Kagawa has a couple of bad games or is absent for a while. Like now. It's tedious and boring, making the same points over and over and then disappearing when he plays well.

 

[Man of Leisure]

Heh, he's a great player! You lot just can't see it!

Hopefully a new manager with new ideas will bring the best out of Kagawa. Otherwise, probably best for both parties if Kagawa moved on elsewhere.

 

[Wumminator]

That's a remarkably stupid point.



Yep. He's not worthy of the bench. We need the blind crossing of your game changer Young or the head down crossing of Valencia. None of which accounts for the fact he's better at crossing when it's not his desired position.



What you are is the guy who comes in when Kagawa has a couple of bad games or is absent for a while. Like now. It's tedious and boring, making the same points over and over and then disappearing when he plays well.

Disappearing when he plays well? I've constantly come in here and praised him when he does well.

 

[Spoony]

Hopefully a new manager with new ideas will bring the best out of Kagawa. Otherwise, probably best for both parties if Kagawa moved on elsewhere.

He's not good enough. Simples.

 

[Nighteyes]

Kagawa has proved for United that when he plays he has a much higher level in terms of playmaking than Rooney, he has shown it starting from the left and centrally - especially when he has started with Mata(which everything is about).

No, he hasn't. He's had a couple of good games here and there (mostly in Europe) but more often than not he usually disappears. Moyes can be used as an excuse for some things but he's not to blame for Kagawa being a total fanny. The idea that Kagawa is better than Rooney as an AM has no basis at all. And again you've ignored the point about Kagawa's position at Dortmund.

 

[Annahnomoss]

No, he hasn't. He's had a couple of good games here and there (mostly in Europe) but more often than not he usually disappears. Moyes can be used as an excuse for some things but he's not to blame for Kagawa being a total fanny. The idea that Kagawa is better than Rooney as an AM has no basis at all. And again you've ignored the point about Kagawa's position at Dortmund.

I didn't say Kagawa is better than Rooney as an AM, I said Rooney is an absolute terrible playmaker - in fact I've rarely seen him act as a playmaker even if he is played as a number 10. Even Rooney's biggest fans realize that as a number 10, playmaking is the ability he most lacks and if he had that ability too he would be the best in the world as he already works hard, scores and assists a lot when played behind the striker.

In reality he of course completely lacks any sort of playmaking ability except for cross field passes, his short passing can be down right dumb and as worthless as a really poor Nani decision.

 

[Nighteyes]

I didn't say Kagawa is better than Rooney as an AM, I said Rooney is an absolute terrible playmaker - in fact I've rarely seen him act as a playmaker even if he is played as a number 10. Even Rooney's biggest fans realize that as a number 10, playmaking is the ability he most lacks and if he had that ability too he would be the best in the world as he already works hard, scores and assists a lot when played behind the striker.

In reality he of course completely lacks any sort of playmaking ability except for cross field passes, his short passing can be down right dumb and as worthless as a really poor Nani decision.

Yeah sure

 

[mazhar13]

I've not rated Rooney as an AM ever, not in any season he has played there as he is one of the key reasons we never have a midfield which is stable and creative enough. Rooney always plays the role too offensively, like a striker being played out of position he constantly leaves his CM's to do all the dirty work while he makes run forward to get at the end of an assist or a goal.

This is a second striker role, rather than an AM and there is nothing wrong with that. But it requires you to already have the worlds best CM's who can fight 2 vs 3 in the central midfield and still do a great job defensively and offensively. No top teams plays with a Rooney sort of AM except us, so we are always the ones who tactically expose on our CM's and rely on them to do a monster job - while we also have the worst CM's of the top teams.

You can say this about Rooney in the last season, some of the 2012/13 season, and in the 2011/12 season after our 1-6 loss, but before that, he was a good link between the midfield and defence. Our midfield issues were due to how defensively weak they were and how they would be easily bypassed by the opposition.

Rooney himself was a good link of the midfield and attack as a deep-lying forward should be. Of course, he doesn't have the lateral movement that attacking midfielders have, and this is a reason why he's not a suitable attacking midfielder and why, when our wingers get shut down, we find it difficult to create chances. Plus, Rooney frequently rushes into the box whenever the ball goes out wide rather than relieve them of the pressure they're under by making himself available for link-ups.

Kagawa provides that lateral movement that Rooney doesn't, and thus, the wingers (our primary source of chance creation) aren't put under as much pressure and are more free to play their game. He's also always available to relieve pressure from the creative players and provide a different option. Of course, if our wingers still don't perform, then we're back to the same issue as before where we find it difficult to create chances. This is where Mata makes the difference as he can provide the creativity when our wingers can't. Again, if the wingers are poor, then the opposition will seek to put Mata under tons of pressure, and, lo and behold, we're back to the same problem. Likewise for if Mata's poor and our wingers aren't.

Now then, what to do? Well, this situation will require someone who'll provide a different option to teammates and who'll relieve the pressure from the creative players and goalscorers. Kagawa's the perfect player for this. This is the reason he worked so well at Dortmund, and this is what makes Kagawa a world class player. Whenever Dortmund's dangerous players were closed down, Kagawa would pop up to do the damage. Sadly, in his time here, our wingers haven't been too productive, and our midfielders don't get involved in creating chances in the final third often enough, so Kagawa doesn't look as good as he did in Dortmund. The same goes for his time in Japan during the World Cup where his teammates haven't been creative and fluid in the final third.

Under van Gaal, Kagawa has the perfect platform to prove his worth to this club and play at his best. If he fails to do well under van Gaal, then it's safe to say that he should move on. Until then, after just 2 seasons, he should be given a chance.

 

[Lane]

Yes, didn't create any chances either. He's the worst player ever. I think you've nailed it.

No, he did create just too little. Much less than Mata, Rooney, Adnan. Even Evra created more chances.

 

[dirkey]

You can say this about Rooney in the last season, some of the 2012/13 season, and in the 2011/12 season after our 1-6 loss, but before that, he was a good link between the midfield and defence. Our midfield issues were due to how defensively weak they were and how they would be easily bypassed by the opposition.

Rooney himself was a good link of the midfield and attack as a deep-lying forward should be. Of course, he doesn't have the lateral movement that attacking midfielders have, and this is a reason why he's not a suitable attacking midfielder and why, when our wingers get shut down, we find it difficult to create chances. Plus, Rooney frequently rushes into the box whenever the ball goes out wide rather than relieve them of the pressure they're under by making himself available for link-ups.

Kagawa provides that lateral movement that Rooney doesn't, and thus, the wingers (our primary source of chance creation) aren't put under as much pressure and are more free to play their game. He's also always available to relieve pressure from the creative players and provide a different option. Of course, if our wingers still don't perform, then we're back to the same issue as before where we find it difficult to create chances. This is where Mata makes the difference as he can provide the creativity when our wingers can't. Again, if the wingers are poor, then the opposition will seek to put Mata under tons of pressure, and, lo and behold, we're back to the same problem. Likewise for if Mata's poor and our wingers aren't.

Now then, what to do? Well, this situation will require someone who'll provide a different option to teammates and who'll relieve the pressure from the creative players and goalscorers. Kagawa's the perfect player for this. This is the reason he worked so well at Dortmund, and this is what makes Kagawa a world class player. Whenever Dortmund's dangerous players were closed down, Kagawa would pop up to do the damage. Sadly, in his time here, our wingers haven't been too productive, and our midfielders don't get involved in creating chances in the final third often enough, so Kagawa doesn't look as good as he did in Dortmund. The same goes for his time in Japan during the World Cup where his teammates haven't been creative and fluid in the final third.

Under van Gaal, Kagawa has the perfect platform to prove his worth to this club and play at his best. If he fails to do well under van Gaal, then it's safe to say that he should move on. Until then, after just 2 seasons, he should be given a chance.

Ah yes. Another post that blamed kagawas average play on the fact everyone else was poor. He is not world class. Would people please stop calling him so.
world class players affect games. They don't need their entire team playing well before they maybe do something ok. They drag their teams to another level. Kagawa is average. It's not everyone else's fault but his. Amazing how over hyped this guy is considering two seasons of a distinct lack of production.

 

[AlwaysRedwood]

No, he did create just too little. Much less than Mata, Rooney, Adnan. Even Evra created more chances.

Atta girl, don't ever give up, don't ever change.

 

[Lane]

Atta girl, don't ever give up, don't ever change.

People who refer to insults are usually those who are extremely bitter and just lack any real arguments. You are just being ignorant, Kagawa well may be a decent player, but he had not showed in at United, and his return including chances created and goal both was mostly poor and subdued.

 

[mazhar13]

Ah yes. Another post that blamed kagawas average play on the fact everyone else was poor. He is not world class. Would people please stop calling him so.
world class players affect games. They don't need their entire team playing well before they maybe do something ok. They drag their teams to another level. Kagawa is average. It's not everyone else's fault but his. Amazing how over hyped this guy is considering two seasons of a distinct lack of production.

I'm not blaming anyone. I'm saying Kagawa's ineffective when others aren't producing. He doesn't have the mentality to push on and do things himself. However, when others are producing but under pressure from the opposition, Kagawa's amazing at relieving pressure from teammates and providing another option. It's what makes him so good. His style means that he'll be ineffective when others are off form. However, if players aren't off form but aren't producing due to the opponent's setup, then Kagawa can be very useful in this case as he will allow others to produce more than they have been or get more goalscoring opportunities.

 

[Lane]

I'm not blaming anyone. I'm saying Kagawa's ineffective when others aren't producing. He doesn't have the mentality to push on and do things himself. However, when others are producing but under pressure from the opposition, Kagawa's amazing at relieving pressure from teammates and providing another option. It's what makes him so good. His style means that he'll be ineffective when others are off form. However, if players aren't off form but aren't producing due to the opponent's setup, then Kagawa can be very useful in this case as he will allow others to produce more than they have been or get more goalscoring opportunities.

So basically he is a football piggy-backer?

 

[dirkey]

I'm not blaming anyone. I'm saying Kagawa's ineffective when others aren't producing. He doesn't have the mentality to push on and do things himself. However, when others are producing but under pressure from the opposition, Kagawa's amazing at relieving pressure from teammates and providing another option. It's what makes him so good. His style means that he'll be ineffective when others are off form. However, if players aren't off form but aren't producing due to the opponent's setup, then Kagawa can be very useful in this case as he will allow others to produce more than they have been or get more goalscoring opportunities.

Well that to me simply isn't the definition of a world class player. Even when the team has been on form kagawa has in the main part done nothing other than be a tidy footballer. He has great completion stats because he hasn't the balls to try something out of the ordinary. I want players in the team, especially in such key areas Up front as he plays who take chances. I want players who grab games by the scruff of the neck. You're even saying yourself he's not that guy. What use is he to us when the team is off form? None. He's a passenger. And even at his best for us he's done nothing special in the midst part. Remember how Ronaldo used do things out of nowhere to win us games? Rooney also, many times. Kagawa is far from world class.

 

[Empire]

I think all of those points are pretty valid. Certainly not anything there that requires mocking. Seems pretty sensible compared to some of the hype he gets.

Yep. He's not worthy of the bench. We need the blind crossing of your game changer Young or the head down crossing of Valencia. None of which accounts for the fact he's better at crossing when it's not his desired position.



What you are is the guy who comes in when Kagawa has a couple of bad games or is absent for a while. Like now. It's tedious and boring, making the same points over and over and then disappearing when he plays well.

This.

 

[Globule]

I'm not blaming anyone. I'm saying Kagawa's ineffective when others aren't producing. He doesn't have the mentality to push on and do things himself. However, when others are producing but under pressure from the opposition, Kagawa's amazing at relieving pressure from teammates and providing another option. It's what makes him so good. His style means that he'll be ineffective when others are off form. However, if players aren't off form but aren't producing due to the opponent's setup, then Kagawa can be very useful in this case as he will allow others to produce more than they have been or get more goalscoring opportunities.

This isn't just Kagawa. You've described far too many of our squad in that post. In previous squads we've had an abundance of players who will step up when others are playing poorly, taking the game by the scruff of the neck and dragging us over the line. How many of those players exist in our current squad? Not any CMs, not any wingers, no defenders.
At the moment we're lacking in real leaders on the pitch and that will not be fixed just by LvG's appointment.

 

[Wumminator]

This.

Well it's true. When you look at my posts in context it makes sense. I'm not saying that I want Rooney and Jones in CM. I'm saying their place in the squad is boosted by them being able to play in those positions. I'm not saying Cleverley is the best midfielder in the world. I'm saying he could play in a midfield 2 and not be embarrassingly bad.

And don't "this" at the idea I don't praise Kagawa. You've gone through my quotes you've seen me say he's been very good in games. You know when he plays well I say he's played well. What I don't do is decide he's a good player before he ever plays for united and then cling to that belief throughout his stay because *gasp* admitting you are wrong would be the worst thing that could happen.

 

[Empire]

Well it's true. When you look at my posts in context it makes sense. I'm not saying that I want Rooney and Jones in CM. I'm saying their place in the squad is boosted by them being able to play in those positions. I'm not saying Cleverley is the best midfielder in the world. I'm saying he could play in a midfield 2 and not be embarrassingly bad.

And don't "this" at the idea I don't praise Kagawa. You've gone through my quotes you've seen me say he's been very good in games. You know when he plays well I say he's played well. What I don't do is decide he's a good player before he ever plays for united and then cling to that belief throughout his stay because *gasp* admitting you are wrong would be the worst thing that could happen.

You often say things like this:

But I think it comes down to a simple fact with Kagawa. If you're shite and ineffective most times you play for my club, I'll generally think you're not good enough.

I remember pointing out in a game the off the ball motion he demonstrated, the countless runs he made that created space for other players to penetrate and how we have a lack of players doing this. You completely disregarded the point, this is how our first interaction started, you went on to talk of the value Young brings to the team whilst not acknowledging Kagawa's movement and quick short passes, you rarely praise him yet you have been quite vocal of what Ashley Young offers to us.

 

[Wumminator]

But he has been shite and ineffective most times he's played for the club. I think most would agree with that.

 

[Wumminator]

You often say things like this:



I remember pointing out in a game the off the ball motion he demonstrated, the countless runs he made that created space for other players to penetrate and how we have a lack of players doing this. You completely disregarded the point, this is how our first interaction started, you went on to talk of the value Young brings to the team whilst not acknowledging Kagawa's movement and quick short passes, you rarely praise him yet you have been quite vocal of what Ashley Young offers to us.

Our first interaction was when you were pointing out how vital he was in a move we scored. So were others. Plenty of other players do similar things and are ignored. Kagawa gets leniency because he is a more "technical" player so people look for his good points whereas more "powerful" players like Rooney get shit. People in this thread have expressed the opinion they'd get rid of Rooney to play Kagawa more. That's utterly bizzare.