Mesut Özil

I dislike that so many Arsenal fans feel the need to belittle and bully fans of Man Utd. Many mock them and scoff at the possibility of players viewing Arsenal as a preferred destination. This strikes me as unhealthy and it is not fair. Many are mocking United's players or mentality, when the brutal reality is that Arsenal are in no position to mock others. They have finished a humiliating fourth in the Premier League last season. This is appalling, and makes it quite embarrassing that so many are mocking Man utd for finishing seventh, and also winning the Charity Shield.

As for Bebe, he is a sumptuous player. He is a player who will thrive and produce decisive moments for a well functioning team. Yes, he was not hugely impressive for us last season, nor was he at the World Cup, but he has proven his quality in the past. There are also legitimate flaws to his game, he does not often impose himself in difficult games and is not the most reliable physically, but the abuse he receives here is largely not based on his actual flaws, rather it is childish scorn and ridicule of Man Utd by Arsenal fans acting as bullies. It is wrong, and makes for a poor debate.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
The only genuinely peculiar element to what's going on in this thread is that Arsenal fans should be surprised about one of their players getting a slightly less than even-handed treatment on "The Leading Manchester United Forum".

If you're only interested in gushing hyperbole about his sumptuous left foot you're better off spending less time one here and more on goonercafe.net, or wherever the feck all your fellow gunnergimps discuss Islington property prices and where to find the nicest Waitrose in North London.
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Expecting even-handed treatment of an opposition player should be possible within the realms of an internet forum. You obviously don't have very high standards, which is reflected within your own posting.

On a forum which has a newbie promotion process, I expect people to be able to enter a debate about any footballer with some kind of objectivity. Apologies if I'm asking for too much.
 
Cinja el Shagawa said:
I dislike that so many Arsenal fans feel the need to belittle and bully fans of Man Utd. Many mock them and scoff at the possibility of players viewing Arsenal as a preferred destination. This strikes me as unhealthy and it is not fair. Many are mocking United's players or mentality, when the brutal reality is that Arsenal are in no position to mock others. They have finished a humiliating fourth in the Premier League last season. This is appalling, and makes it quite embarrassing that so many are mocking Man utd for finishing seventh, and also winning the Charity Shield.

As for Bebe, he is a sumptuous player. He is a player who will thrive and produce decisive moments for a well functioning team. Yes, he was not hugely impressive for us last season, nor was he at the World Cup, but he has proven his quality in the past. There are also legitimate flaws to his game, he does not often impose himself in difficult games and is not the most reliable physically, but the abuse he receives here is largely not based on his actual flaws, rather it is childish scorn and ridicule of Man Utd by Arsenal fans acting as bullies. It is wrong, and makes for a poor debate.
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:lol:
 
Arsenal fans are over sensitive when it comes to Ozil. He had a few good games at the World Cup and a few others where he looked predictable. Some Arsenal fans will pick out a few good passes from a game and claim he wasn't that bad. At times it's similar to some United fans when it comes to Kagawa.

Ozil is better than what he has shown recently. He also did not look like a £40 Million player for quite a few games last season. That's why he is getting or received criticism, not just over here in England, but also in Germany.

He's a good player, we get it, but it's okay to admit he should and absolutely could have done more for Arsenal last season. It also doesn't help when the team is struggling and your £40 Million man looks like he doesn't give a shit.
 
alastair said:
On a forum which has a newbie promotion process, I expect people to be able to enter a debate about any footballer with some kind of objectivity. Apologies if I'm asking for too much.
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You can sum up the caf on Arsenal in (with a few honourable exceptions) about 3 hackneyed phrases: bottlers, Wenger loon who wouldn't spend cash, Ozil waste of space. They've all been trotted out regularly of late.
 
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Eboue said:
As for the German part, I don't think they are biased (have no reason to think so and don't read German papers). There are legitimate criticisms of ozil. I think most would agree that they expected a bit more from him last year. But on here all you get is green smilies and "40m flop".

You're not totally wrong to criticize him but you've got to consider the amount of unfair criticism we constantly read if you want to know why we react so defensively.
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You know that's not true. It's often valid criticism in reaction to a poor performance after which alastair will have posted 'best player on the pitch' and similar messages (invariably). The green smilies are more often than not directed at al and not Özil.
 
Cinja el Shagawa said:
I dislike that so many Arsenal fans feel the need to belittle and bully fans of Man Utd. Many mock them and scoff at the possibility of players viewing Arsenal as a preferred destination. This strikes me as unhealthy and it is not fair. Many are mocking United's players or mentality, when the brutal reality is that Arsenal are in no position to mock others. They have finished a humiliating fourth in the Premier League last season. This is appalling, and makes it quite embarrassing that so many are mocking Man utd for finishing seventh, and also winning the Charity Shield.

As for Bebe, he is a sumptuous player. He is a player who will thrive and produce decisive moments for a well functioning team. Yes, he was not hugely impressive for us last season, nor was he at the World Cup, but he has proven his quality in the past. There are also legitimate flaws to his game, he does not often impose himself in difficult games and is not the most reliable physically, but the abuse he receives here is largely not based on his actual flaws, rather it is childish scorn and ridicule of Man Utd by Arsenal fans acting as bullies. It is wrong, and makes for a poor debate.
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Arsenal fans bullying United fans? :lol:

Though I myself disagree with a lot of United fans who have been calling Ozil "shit, average" and whatnot. Ozil is still one of the best in the world.
 
Y2A said:
Arsenal fans bullying United fans? :lol:

Though I myself disagree with a lot of United fans who have been calling Ozil "shit, average" and whatnot. Ozil is still one of the best in the world.
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whoosh, facepalm etc
 
A total passenger and the last person you want in the team when you are under pressure. A good touch means nothing if you get easily overrun.
 
Obviously the guy is world class. I've been a fan of his since his Real Madrid days. He's probably the best passer in the world for me. It sickens me to see Arsenal and English fans berate him. I actually don't think they deserve him.

He's a playmaker, not a workhorse. The fact that they don't have a world class striker making the runs is also hurting him. Someone like Benzema or Remy would be good for him at Arsenal. "Target men" like Giroud are no good for his style of play, you need a mover. Someone like Benzema or Ronaldo.
 
Overall I would give him a 7/10 rating for his last season performance. 8/10 for the first half and 6/10 for the second.
 
jason93 said:
Obviously the guy is world class. I've been a fan of his since his Real Madrid days. He's probably the best passer in the world for me. It sickens me to see Arsenal and English fans berate him. I actually don't think they deserve him.

He's a playmaker, not a workhorse. The fact that they don't have a world class striker making the runs is also hurting him. Someone like Benzema or Remy would be good for him at Arsenal. "Target men" like Giroud are no good for his style of play, you need a mover. Someone like Benzema or Ronaldo.
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He is good but no.
 
Eboue said:
Where are Arsenal fans berating him? This thread gets stranger every day.
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When they got hammered by City, they pretty much blamed him for the loss entirely. Mertesacker got in his face etc. When he wasn't on for the Liverpool bashing, they could no longer use him as a scapegoat which I found funny.

Look at the English papers just last week. It's embarrassing.
 
jason93 said:
Who do you think is better? Keep in mind I'm talking purely from an assist standpoint here. Ozil is the ultimate CAM for me, followed closely by Mata.
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There are a few players I can think of. He's probably the best assist wise but that doesn't necessarily make him the best passer of the ball in the world.

How many assists did he actually have last season? Only 9 wasn't it? Albeit with injuries...not doubting his class though, at Madrid he was an assist machine. He needs someone other than Giroud play the balls in to and will thrive off Sanchez.


To compare though, Eriksen also had 9. Feeding our horrible attack.
 
jason93 said:
When they got hammered by City, they pretty much blamed him for the loss entirely. Mertesacker got in his face etc. When he wasn't on for the Liverpool bashing, they could no longer use him as a scapegoat which I found funny.

Look at the English papers just last week. It's embarrassing.
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He's a £40 million signing that was hyped up by some to be the best player in the league when he joined. Of course the papers had a go when he was out of form, its not particularly surprising.
 
iBoss said:
Arsenal fans are over sensitive when it comes to Ozil. He had a few good games at the World Cup and a few others where he looked predictable. Some Arsenal fans will pick out a few good passes from a game and claim he wasn't that bad. At times it's similar to some United fans when it comes to Kagawa.

Ozil is better than what he has shown recently. He also did not look like a £40 Million player for quite a few games last season. That's why he is getting or received criticism, not just over here in England, but also in Germany.

He's a good player, we get it, but it's okay to admit he should and absolutely could have done more for Arsenal last season. It also doesn't help when the team is struggling and your £40 Million man looks like he doesn't give a shit.
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I think this comparision is pretty spot on, which is understandable because they are in some ways very similar players.

To put it harshly, both are fair weather football players. Players with a lot of flair and great technical skill, who can elevate well working systems into great teams, but also have the tendency to go missing when things don´t work. This point was also always the main criticism of Özil in Germany. You could not count on him to pull a team out of a slump or step up when it was needed.

He belongs in some areas to the best on the planet, but this does not mean that much anymore if he can´t utilise said abilities when the team needs it the most. He is neither a lead player, who can influence the game in every situation like Schweinsteiger for example nor a player who can make things happen out of nothing and decide games completely on his own like Müller or Reus.

These guys are undisputed world class players for me, because not only do they have the needed skills but also the right attitude and mentality.

Özil on his day does undoubtly play on world class level, but I still have trouble to give him that label (I do have a pretty high standart for that, though), because he lacks the consistency and mentality IMO. It also makes him quite frustrating to watch, because you know what he is capable of.

With all that said, Özil can still be a great contribution for pretty much any team.
 
I do not even think that it is that fighting mentality that he just does not have in him right now what is missing. It's e.g. not really surprising that Müller has as many key passes as he has in this World Cup - they were pretty close in number of assists the recent 4 years for that team - but he somehow lost the timing or the surprising moment. The key passes then just do not form into assists.

Even if he can show some assists from the time at Arsenal - he is not on the level he was two years ago. The reason why - I do not know. Maybe he worked harder at Real Madrid with Mourinho and being under "the umbrella" of Poldi who I do not think is the training world champion is different that being that at Real Madrid with Khedira.
 
Grinner said:
Or perhaps it was having injuries and being in the first season in a completely new, more physical league.
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The EPL might be more physical - but it is a league with more open spaces that is less tactical. When I see matches I often think it must be paradise for players like him.

And it is not the the matches in the CL or now at the World Cup show something different.
 
Blackwidow said:
The EPL might be more physical - but it is a league with more open spaces that is less tactical. When I see matches I often think it must be paradise for players like him.

And it is not the the matches in the CL or now at the World Cup show something different.
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Either way it's generally accepted that foreign players coming into the EPL need a season to adjust. Some slot right in, others take more time. The weight of expectation from that transfer fee meant that he was always under a lot of pressure. If he doesn't improve this season then perhaps some of you might be right. We shall see.
 
[QUOTE
Blackwidow said:
I do not even think that it is that fighting mentality that he just does not have in him right now what is missing. It's e.g. not really surprising that Müller has as many key passes as he has in this World Cup - they were pretty close in number of assists the recent 4 years for that team - but he somehow lost the timing or the surprising moment. The key passes then just do not form into assists.

Even if he can show some assists from the time at Arsenal - he is not on the level he was two years ago. The reason why - I do not know. Maybe he worked harder at Real Madrid with Mourinho and being under "the umbrella" of Poldi who I do not think is the training world champion is different that being that at Real Madrid with Khedira.
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Ozil set up the most goal scoring chances in the whole WC. If it wasn't for Kroos and his shite finishing then he would have claimed far more assists.
 
Red Ross said:
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Ozil set up the most goal scoring chances in the whole WC. If it wasn't for Kroos and his shite finishing then he would have claimed far more assists.
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  1. While they they were good chances (in the final) which Kroos should have done better with, they weren't exact;y sitters.
 
saivet said:
  1. While they they were good chances (in the final) which Kroos should have done better with, they weren't exact;y sitters.
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I was just pointing out that in a WC final he set up 2 chances for Kroos (who I read on the Redcafe is the best CM to ever grace a football pitch) and he should have at least made the keeper work.
 
I thought he had a good World Cup, not as good as 2010 where he basically broke onto world stage but a good one nonetheless. But since he's Arsenal's most expensive signing ever people are expecting slightly too much of him hence the whole picking on him malarky.
 
Overall his performance was solid/good; he had to play in a role, that isnt his best.
The upside of shifting him to the right wing - with Boateng/Lahm behind him - was, that his defensive shortcomings are less problematic. He was also fairly motivated (for his standards). He didnt work that much for the nationalteam for 4 years.
Offensively he was pretty good, considering that he was a bit isolated on the wing and made the best out of it. His off the ball movement is always fantastic.

He wasnt one of the stand-out performer, but it was the right decision to trust him as starter.


 
PedroMendez said:
Overall his performance was solid/good; he had to play in a role, that isnt his best.
The upside of shifting him to the right wing - with Boateng/Lahm behind him - was, that his defensive shortcomings are less problematic. He was also fairly motivated (for his standards). He didnt work that much for the nationalteam for 4 years.
Offensively he was pretty good, considering that he was a bit isolated on the wing and made the best out of it. His off the ball movement is always fantastic.

He wasnt one of the stand-out performer, but it was the right decision to trust him as starter.


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Good for him. It's only the World Cup, after all.
 
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